Views on Mormonism?

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TexanKnight,

You had the opportunity to read the Book of Mormon and the book of Revelation and figure out for yourself what the “great and abominable church” was through the symbolism involved. I’ve done that, and it’s not Catholicism. It has to do with what people do with religion and with their loyalties and priorities in life. It has to do with whether they love God with all their heart, might, mind and strength, or love other things and get pulled away by those other things into paths that lead away from the living Christ and from sincere repentance day by day.
Brother Parker, I never said you believed it. I said that your Church taught it, a future apostle called it Mormon Doctrine, and it was shown in the temple. I appreciate that the LDS Church, in its ever-changing doctrine, has backed off that teaching.
 
TexanKnight,

He said “without the revelations of Jesus Christ”, yes. That is completely supported by New Testament scripture over and over again.

The New Testament also supports the reality of there being a “priesthood of Melchizedek” that is different than the Levitical priesthood which was the officiating priesthood for the law of sacrifice. The law of sacrifice was fulfilled in Christ, and Christ is the Great High Priest who made the great and last sacrifice. Paul explains that the Savior held the Melchizedek priesthood, as did Melchizedek, as did Abraham. And it is indeed the priesthood after the order of the Son of God, whereas the Levitical priesthood was a preparatory priesthood for the outward ordinances of the old covenant. It was around only because the children of Israel under Moses weren’t ready for the higher priesthood to be restored among them.
What you say is not Biblical, but I appreciate that you believe it. Joseph has, in effect, called me and every other Catholic, a liar. I do not believe I am a liar.
 
Furthermore, in the story of Abel and Cain there is reference to First Fruits…

And looking back to the Garden of Eden…the Mormons play and draw from the Forbidden Fruit …

It can be said that the explanation of the Mass really began at the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or you will die…but they chose to eat to be like God.

God is all loving. God wanted Adam and Eve to be dependent on Him, and to draw the characteristics and virtues of Himself to be given to them…God shared His life through paradise with Adam and Eve. But again, they chose to listen to the devil and chose to eat of the forbidden fruit to be like God – independently and on their terms.

God created Adam and Eve as free and with intellect. They freely chose against His will.

In the garden, there were many trees that they could eat…but the Lord named only one of them…‘The Tree of Life’.

Yet Adam and Eve chose the tree that would give them death.

Christ had referred to Himself as the vine and branches, Jesus is the Tree of Life from where we draw nourishment…living Flesh and Blood and Soul and Divinity of God Himself…Jesus saying at the Last Supper…in remembrance of Melchizidek…taking the bread and wine, and now making them His Bread and Blood.

When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, their eyes were opened to their sin.

Contrast this with Jesus on the Road to Emmaus after the Resurrection,…‘their eyes were opened and they recognized Him’…Jesus apparently breaking the Eucharistic Bread…Jesus the fulfilled Tree of Life that would bring them eternal life.

Subsequently, it is Jesus Christ and not Joseph Smith with his spectacles, and false angel moroni and the Egyptian golden plates…but Jesus Christ Himself Who opens us up, who is the One who makes faith in us.

How many people do not realize how profound the Holy Mass is, the greatest power of God on earth!!
 
Parker…Jesus Christ is God. He does not lie. He is the Author of our faith.
 
@ParkerD, KathleenGee, et. al.,

The post I wrote yesterday comes from my own observations in growing up with grandparents very active in the LDS church, as well as a long season of study of the Book of Mormon and other LDS theological texts. The comment I made about being challenged arises from two points:
  1. There is a certain amount of disagreement within the LDS as to what things mean. This means that one Mormon could hold to an interpretation of __(fill in the blank)_______, while another could hold to a different one. That’s not abnormal at all for any group, as this forum clearly attests to! 🙂
and
  1. This is not a personal attack on any Mormon here, but I have yet to meet a member of the LDS (my grandparents, step-family, several coworkers) who will not tell me that I’m misinformed, even if I directly quote from LDS texts. Again, this is not personal. I simply had no doubt that I would be told I was wrong.
 
Furthermore, in the story of Abel and Cain there is reference to First Fruits…

And looking back to the Garden of Eden…the Mormons play and draw from the Forbidden Fruit …

It can be said that the explanation of the Mass really began at the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were told not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil or you will die…but they chose to eat to be like God.

God is all loving. God wanted Adam and Eve to be dependent on Him, and to draw the characteristics and virtues of Himself to be given to them…God shared His life through paradise with Adam and Eve. But again, they chose to listen to the devil and chose to eat of the forbidden fruit to be like God – independently and on their terms.

God created Adam and Eve as free and with intellect. They freely chose against His will.

In the garden, there were many trees that they could eat…but the Lord named only one of them…‘The Tree of Life’.

Yet Adam and Eve chose the tree that would give them death.

Christ had referred to Himself as the vine and branches, Jesus is the Tree of Life from where we draw nourishment…living Flesh and Blood and Soul and Divinity of God Himself…Jesus saying at the Last Supper…in remembrance of Melchizidek…taking the bread and wine, and now making them His Bread and Blood.

When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, their eyes were opened to their sin.

Contrast this with Jesus on the Road to Emmaus after the Resurrection,…‘their eyes were opened and they recognized Him’…Jesus apparently breaking the Eucharistic Bread…Jesus the fulfilled Tree of Life that would bring them eternal life.

Subsequently, it is Jesus Christ and not Joseph Smith with his spectacles, and false angel moroni and the Egyptian golden plates…but Jesus Christ Himself Who opens us up, who is the One who makes faith in us.

How many people do not realize how profound the Holy Mass is, the greatest power of God on earth!!
Kathleen, I love this post, and will only add, the fulfillment of Jesus Christ as the Tree of Life is clearly seen in the Eucharist!

There is also the bronze serpent in Numbers, that is a Tree of Life for the Hebrews and prefigures Jesus Christ, who said, “And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.”
 
Pepband Mom;8540214]
Obviously Mormons use a different terminology than mainstream Christianity.
Boy, do they.
Do prospective converts:
know they will become Gods & inhabit their own planet with a wife?
know Jesus & Satan are “brothers”, Council of the “Gods”, God evolved…
TACTIC why missionaries don’t divulge this; Common pattern in** sects, new agers, cults, johnny-come-lately’s **on the religious scene don’t divulge definitions up front; not until one is INITIATED (turn the heat up on the frog in the pot)
When discover in over their head & try to leave are threatened with hell, OUTER DARKNESS etc. & recipients of the worst of all tactics: SHUNNING - from spouse, children, relatives, friends, business associates LOSE everything
That’s what I’m talking about. Patent dishonesty.
 
What you say is not Biblical, but I appreciate that you believe it. Joseph has, in effect, called me and every other Catholic, a liar. I do not believe I am a liar.
Actually Parker is pretty much correct, exept that the Mormon theology of a *restored *priesthood contradicts the terms of the Levitical Covenant grant, as explained in Jer 33. Apart from that, he is right.

The distinction in order between the Melchizedek and Levitical priesthood is quite biblical and real. I don’t know to what extent Parker will agree with all that I am about to say, but here is a basic outline of some key points in the biblical case for this:

The Melchizedek priesthood is the priesthood that a person possesses by virtue of being a firstborn son. Prior to the establishment of the Levitical covenant, there were already priests among the Israelites, but the rights and duties of the priesthood belonged not to the Levites exclusively, but to the firstborn sons of Israel. The priestly role of the firstborn is implied when God says that Israel is to be a “kingdom of priests” (Exod 19:6) and also that “Israel is my son, my firstborn.” (Exod 4:22)

While all of Israel is called to be a kingdom of priests, there is, under the original Sinai Covenant, a special consecration of the firstborn sons within the nation. Hence God commands Moses: “Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel.” (Exod 13:2, cf. 22:29) However, when Israel turns to idolatry in the Golden calf incident, God strips the firtborn of their priesthood and hands it over to the Levites, who get the hoary the job of slaying many of the idolators. Only then does God say to the Levites: “Today you have consecrated yourselves to the Lord.” (Exod 32:29) And afterwards we read in Numbers: “Take the Levites instead of all the firstborn among the children of Israel, and the cattle of the Levites instead of their cattle; and the Levites shall be mine: I am the Lord.” (3:45)

The outcome of the new establishment of the Levites as priests is the long and extensive legislation that rolls out until the end of Deuteronomy, as God continually adds statutes to correct Israel’s continual backsliding. This is why, even from the Old Testament itself, we can see that the Old Law was provisional, it is a remedy for the disestablishment for the firstborn sons. In the New Covenant, however, preisthood is reclaimed for the firstborn by Christ, and that is one of the principal teachigns of the Letter to the Hebrews. Notice how central the unity of sonship and preisthood is for St. Paul, and how it serves as a basis for understanding Christ’s priesthood in linght of Melchizedek:

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. (Heb 5:5-6)

[Note: Most of the Fahters and ancient Rabbis agree that Melchizedek is a title of Shem, the firstobrn son of Noah, who was still alive in Abraham’s time, according to the geneologies.]
 
Blueadept, and you also have to remember why Mormonism was formed and why it is different than Christianity, as well as its beginning adversarial position against our Church.

The Church did not begin in an adversarial position, its construct based on condemning beliefs of other peoples. Christianity began on Christ, and the Holy Spirit gave the apostles strength and courage to begin their mission of preaching the Good News.

I see the Mormon church propaganda that is still anti-Catholic without naming the our church, the latest being this past week’s “King James Bible”.
I saw one episode of the “King James Bible.” I thought it was quite informative. I didn’t think it was anti-Catholic. However, I have come to realize since particitating in the Catholic forum that some feel that the very existance of the LDS Church is anti-Catholic. For, if there was a Restoration and re-establishment of Christ’s Church it then follows that there was an apostasy from the truth.
I believe that there are good and evil people in every church, but that the great majority of the people in the Catholic Chruch and other Christian churches are good and on the side of Christ. In my opinion, the LDS church today is trying to be more sensitive and as much as it is possible, to work with the Catholic Church and others. I believe the leaders of our church see that the fight today should not be among the various Christian churches, but rather between good and evil in the world today. I appreciate those forum members who pray for us Mormons. However, instead of judging us, it might be more productive to pray for good over evil and let Christ be the judge.
 
However, instead of judging us, it might be more productive to pray for good over evil and let Christ be the judge.
Human knowing of good and evil is limited to his own understanding of things and convenience.
We should pray that His Will would be made.
You know it happens His Will is against our will, and His view of things different from ours…

Judging…is not personal, we shouldn’t judge people but we should judge doctrines.

If people impersonifies themselves with their doctrine is another story…

If I say that for me mormon doctrine is faulse and dishonest I am not saying this about mormons.
 
I saw one episode of the “King James Bible.” I thought it was quite informative. I didn’t think it was anti-Catholic. However, I have come to realize since particitating in the Catholic forum that some feel that the very existance of the LDS Church is anti-Catholic. For, if there was a Restoration and re-establishment of Christ’s Church it then follows that there was an apostasy from the truth.
I believe that there are good and evil people in every church, but that the great majority of the people in the Catholic Chruch and other Christian churches are good and on the side of Christ. In my opinion, the LDS church today is trying to be more sensitive and as much as it is possible, to work with the Catholic Church and others. I believe the leaders of our church see that the fight today should not be among the various Christian churches, but rather between good and evil in the world today. I appreciate those forum members who pray for us Mormons. However, instead of judging us, it might be more productive to pray for good over evil and let Christ be the judge.
I do not believe the LDS is anti-Catholic because of a “restoration”. I believe it is anti-Catholic because the temple ceremonies used to portray a priest as an agent of satan, because a man who would be an apostle wrote a book called Mormon Doctrine that said the Catholic Church was THE great and abominable Church, and because Joseph Smith said anyone who said the Catholic Church was the true Church is a liar.

That is why.

In His Grip,
 
I do not believe the LDS is anti-Catholic because of a “restoration”. I believe it is anti-Catholic because the temple ceremonies used to portray a priest as an agent of satan, because a man who would be an apostle wrote a book called Mormon Doctrine that said the Catholic Church was THE great and abominable Church, and because Joseph Smith said anyone who said the Catholic Church was the true Church is a liar.

That is why.

In His Grip,
We will always claim to be the Restoration. However, the other items you mention have not occured for at least the last 20 years. There are negative things you can find in any church if you try. I am just saying the LDS church is trying to be more sensative and work with other Christian Churches for good.
 
I do not believe the LDS is anti-Catholic because of a “restoration”. I believe it is anti-Catholic because the temple ceremonies used to portray a priest as an agent of satan, because a man who would be an apostle wrote a book called Mormon Doctrine that said the Catholic Church was THE great and abominable Church, and because Joseph Smith said anyone who said the Catholic Church was the true Church is a liar.

That is why.

In His Grip,
The Great and Abominable Church is not the Catholic specifically nor is that interprataion support by much evidence from the Mormon theological tradition. Even Bruce McConkie, who had nothing good to say about Catholicism, thought so. Rather, the Great and Abominable Church is not even apostate Christendom in general, but anything outside of the true Church of Christ. In point of fact that does entail bad news for Catholicism, and the description of the Great and Abominable Church in the BOM does sound suspiciously similar to Anti-Catholic Protestant propaganda. But if you look at how the text defines the Great and Abominable Church, it does not make a specifically anti-Catholic statment. Rather it says:

And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.(1 Nephi 14:10)

This is a big claim, but it carries no special offence for Catholics.

As for the LDS Temple Endowment, there has never been any songling out of a Catholic priest in it. Now, I generally consider it unfair to bring up the Endowment ceremony in a public discussion, becasue Mromons consdier it sacred and are not allowed to discuss it outside the Temple. Since there is nothing theological in the endowment that can’t be learned from other LDS sources, there is no need to offend their sensibilities by speaking of the Endowment directly. But, in any case, the character is not a Catholic priest but a “sectarian minister” who teaces only generic Christian doctrines.

This is not to say that a strong anti-Catholics sentiment does not or never has existed i nthe Mormon theology, only that if contains more nuance than you seem to realize. Cartainly a Mormon reading this thread would not feel his conscience pricked by the assertions you are making, and you should take care, and not make such agressive claims unless you have done sufficient study to back it up very well.
 
We will always claim to be the Restoration. However, the other items you mention have not occured for at least the last 20 years. There are negative things you can find in any church if you try. I am just saying the LDS church is trying to be more sensative and work with other Christian Churches for good.
It truly does not matter how long ago these things were done. They were done by an man who would be Apostle and by Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith and the Apostle were wrong, then say so. It, of course, would mean that Joseph Smith was not an Apostle.

In His Grip
 
The Great and Abominable Church is not the Catholic specifically nor is that interprataion support by much evidence from the Mormon theological tradition. Even Bruce McConkie, who had nothing good to say about Catholicism, thought so. Rather, the Great and Abominable Church is not even apostate Christendom in general, but anything outside of the true Church of Christ. In point of fact that does entail bad news for Catholicism, and the description of the Great and Abominable Church in the BOM does sound suspiciously similar to Anti-Catholic Protestant propaganda. But if you look at how the text defines the Great and Abominable Church, it does not make a specifically anti-Catholic statment. Rather it says:

And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.(1 Nephi 14:10)

This is a big claim, but it carries no special offence for Catholics.

As for the LDS Temple Endowment, there has never been any songling out of a Catholic priest in it. Now, I generally consider it unfair to bring up the Endowment ceremony in a public discussion, becasue Mromons consdier it sacred and are not allowed to discuss it outside the Temple. Since there is nothing theological in the endowment that can’t be learned from other LDS sources, there is no need to offend their sensibilities by speaking of the Endowment directly. But, in any case, the character is not a Catholic priest but a “sectarian minister” who teaces only generic Christian doctrines.

This is not to say that a strong anti-Catholics sentiment does not or never has existed i nthe Mormon theology, only that if contains more nuance than you seem to realize. Cartainly a Mormon reading this thread would not feel his conscience pricked by the assertions you are making, and you should take care, and not make such agressive claims unless you have done sufficient study to back it up very well.
McKonkie claimed it very clearly in his first edition of Mormon Doctrine. Under "Great and Abominable Church, it said “Catholic Church”

I still have a copy
 
McKonkie claimed it very clearly in his first edition of Mormon Doctrine. Under "Great and Abominable Church, it said “Catholic Church”

I still have a copy
Oh, in the first edition, maybe he did. But he was not Apsotle when he wrote that. The First Presidency was not actually too thrilled by the First Edition and made him change that and many other things. While I think McConkise is a good secondary source for LDS teaching, I would say that the Book of Mormon is a better source per se, and it is clear that McConkie was not agreeing with the BOM on that point.
 
Oh, in the first edition, maybe he did. But he was not Apsotle when he wrote that. The First Presidency was not actually too thrilled by the First Edition and made him change that and many other things. While I think McConkise is a good secondary source for LDS teaching, I would say that the Book of Mormon is a better source per se, and it is clear that McConkie was not agreeing with the BOM on that point.
It matters not what edition. He said it, he wrote it, and was later made Apostle.

And I attended the temple ceremonies where a Catholic Priest was an agent of Satan
 
The ‘something missing’ is the part that we are civilly divorced and she used the difference in religion card to justify the divorce.

Obviously we have a difference of opinion in regards to our marital status. Obviously the LDS church feels she is free to remarry while the RCC still recognizes our marital vows.

Does that help?
Have you tried to get an annulment of your marriage? I got an an annulment from my LDS ex-wife based mainly on “disparity of cult”. That is, the Mormons worship a different God than Catholics do.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
We will always claim to be the Restoration. However, the other items you mention have not occured for at least the last 20 years. There are negative things you can find in any church if you try. I am just saying the LDS church is trying to be more sensative and work with other Christian Churches for good.
Wow, 20 years! That’s a loooooong time! (sarcasm). Of course, in Mormonism, 20 years is a long time, considering they have only been around for 180 years and their doctrines completely morph every 20 years or so.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
 
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