Vigano message to President Trump

[Motherwit]

Sedevacantism is the position held by some people who identify as Catholic that the present occupier of the Holy See is not truly the pope.

What did I say that wasn’t true?

 

[Motherwit]

He never refers to Pope Francis as Pope. He doesn’t even address him by a clerical title. Allowing such a testimony to be published on CAF incites far more scandal in my humble opinion. But I bow to the wisdom of the board.

 

[graciew]

And so what is wrong with him?

He has bypassed bishops, College of Bishops, Nuncio to write directly a public letter to a President unrelated to his jurisdiction.
He has bypassed the College of Cardinals , almost as if they were a bunch of inefficient nobodies who chose this Pope and has asked the Pope publicly to resign?

He has bypassed the Cardinals’ criteria , those chosen by Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul II who conform the College to drive attention to his own …

It would be fitting to ask what you understand to mean in good standing applied to this Archbishop of lately other than the patience of the Pope and his brother Bishops…after so much “ bypassing”and why not throwing a few under the bus without backup among others…

Don’t you think so?

Where has the Holy Spirit gone?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Sedevacantism is the position held by some people who identify as Catholic that the present occupier of the Holy See is not truly the pope.

What did I say that wasn’t true?

As far as I know Archbishop Vigano has not said that the present occupier of the Holy See is not truly the pope but I have heard him say quite the opposite and speak of Pope Francis as the Pope.

 

[Motherwit]

Motherwit:

Sedevacantism is the position held by some people who identify as Catholic that the present occupier of the Holy See is not truly the pope.

What did I say that wasn’t true?

As far as I know Archbishop Vigano has not said that the present occupier of the Holy See is not truly the pope but I have heard him say quite the opposite and speak of Pope Francis as the Pope.

Why did he call for Pope Francis to resign if he thought he was the valid Pope? Why doesn’t he refer to Pope Francis as the Pope anymore? He calls him Bergoglio. Pope John Paul II oversaw the biggest sedevacantist movement of any Pope and that was marked by their referral to him as “Woytila”.

Is that a new thing to refer to Pope’s by their birth surname now? I’ve never done it and never will.

 

[Motherwit]

This right here disproved your entire point. A sede won’t call for someone to resign from a position they think is empty.
[/quote]

What other reason would one call for a Pope to resign other than they personally don’t think they are valid?

 

[Motherwit]

They wouldn’t call for him to resign if they didn’t think he was pope. A sede doesn’t think there is a pope. So there is no one to resign if there is no pope.

He would call for him to resign because he is doing a terrible job.

I also think he should resign.
[/quote]

If Pope Francis is a valid Pope why do you think you or Vigano have the authority to call for his resignation? This interests me on a psychological level.

 

[Motherwit]

Calling for resignation has nothing to do with authority, it has to do with opinion.

Valid means he holds the seat, it doesn’t mean he is good.
[/quote]

You think Pope Francis should resign because you say he is doing a terrible job, but by what authority do you say that? Is everybody free to reject Popes we don’t agree with?

 

[MagdalenaRita]

Why did he call for Pope Francis to resign if he thought he was the valid Pope?

I don’t think he would need to resign if he was not the pope, so asking him to resign shows he knows he is the pope. You can’t resign from something you are not.

Is that a new thing to refer to Pope’s by their birth surname now? I’ve never done it and never will.

I am assuming you are like me and live in the United States but apparently in Europe it is common to call a pope by their surname:

Jimmy Akin

https://www.ncregister.com/blog/pope-last-name-here

 

[Motherwit]

By what authority are you proclaiming this? Is it possible that you are mistaken?

 

[umamibella]

Why did he call for Pope Francis to resign if he thought he was the valid Pope?

This sounds a bit illogical to me. Why call for a resignation if a person doesnt believe the person is a valid Pope?

 

[Motherwit]

Anyway, I’ve heard enough to detect cafeteria Catholicism and how ingrained it is so I’ll bow out of this now.

 

[umamibella]

Anyway, I’ve heard enough to detect cafeteria Catholicism and how ingrained it is so I’ll bow out of this now.

Motherwit, I would love an answer to my query, what is the reasoning behind something like that.

 

[Motherwit]

Motherwit:

Anyway, I’ve heard enough to detect cafeteria Catholicism and how ingrained it is so I’ll bow out of this now.

Motherwit, I would love an answer to my query, what is the reasoning behind something like that.

In my 60 odd years of practicing Catholicism, I’ve never heard a faithful Catholic refer to a Pope by their last name sans any semblence of their clerical position other than sede’s and cafeteria Catholics who don’t like what the Pope taught. Everyone else in my experience treats the current Pope with due respect referring to them by their office. It’s as simple as that. An experience thing.

 

[umamibella]

In my 60 odd years of practicing Catholicism, I’ve never heard a faithful Catholic refer to a Pope by their last name sans any semblence of their clerical position other than sede’s and cafeteria Catholics who don’t like what the Pope taught. Everyone else in my experience treats the current Pope with due respect referring to them by their office. It’s as simple as that. An experience thing.

Fair enough. I can see how that would be read. I will say I read unfavourable sentiment against the Pope and downright disrespect for him quite regularily on this forum, across all sub forums. These people would not be classed as cafeteria catholics, some come across as very pious. Its a mystery.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

In my 60 odd years of practicing Catholicism, I’ve never heard a faithful Catholic refer to a Pope by their last name sans any semblence of their clerical position other than sede’s and cafeteria Catholics who don’t like what the Pope taught. Everyone else in my experience treats the current Pope with due respect referring to them by their office. It’s as simple as that. An experience thing.

As I said I think it is a European thing. Not sure if you read the article by Jimmy Akin I linked but it is apparently quite common there. Not so much here in the U.S. Is happening more often.

It doesn’t sound right to me either. I personally prefer Holy Father but I don’t think it has anything to do with cafeteria Catholicism, just more of a cultural thing.

 

[umamibella]

As I said I think it is a European thing. Not sure if you read the article by Jimmy Akin I linked but it is apparently quite common there. Not so much here in the U.S.

I read it a lot on CAF from Americans. Very pious Americans.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

I read it a lot on CAF from Americans.

Yes, I do too, but I think it is a new happening and becoming more common. Not something that you would have heard so much in the past. Though in regards to Archbishop Vigano, which was who we were questioning about, it wouldn’t be uncommon for him.

 

[Wampa]

As I said I think it is a European thing. Not sure if you read the article by Jimmy Akin I linked but it is apparently quite common there. Not so much here in the U.S.

I read it and it was interesting; I didn’t know that - thanks for posting that! However, in my experience in reading many traditionalist outlets, those who refuse to say ‘Francis’ are usually doing so as intentional disrespect. For example, peruse the Remnant Newspaper (which is U.S.-based and a huge proponent of all of Archbishop Vigano’s stances) and you’ll see that the columnists and commenters regularly address Pope Francis as just ‘Bergoglio’ - without Pope in front of it, which seems to be a key element of the European usage Jimmy Akin was detailing.

The commenters on Remnant articles often helpfully display their intent by adding antipope, heretic, etc.

 

[MagdalenaRita]

However, in my experience in reading many traditionalist outlets, those who refuse to say ‘Francis’ are usually doing so as intentional disrespect.

Yes, I do agree that there are those who do so out of disrespect,sadly, yes, though it would be difficult for us to say Archbishop Vigano meant it out of disrespect since it is common in Europe.

Pope in front of it, which seems to be a key element of the European usage Jimmy Akin was detailing.

From the article:

It still strikes me as being overly familiar with the high pontiff to just haul off and refer simply to “John Paul” or “Benedict” without at least first getting in a reference to “John Paul II” or “Pope Benedict.”

so he does make reference that there are times when they will just call a pope by his name, without even adding pope in front of it.

I agree that it is not common here in the U.S. so many times it may be disrespectful but again, I wouldn’t want to judge someone from another culture by out culture.