Virgin Birth -- Impossible

  • Thread starter Thread starter AJTheMan
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
AJTheMan said:
Hey guys,

Recently I said that I had a lot of questions so I figured I’d see your take on it. I was reading some of the fundamental beliefs of the Church and seeing how my conscience felt towards them. Most of the Nicene Creed, I’m still pondering, but there was one statement that struck me as a bit…absurd.

**We believe…He was born of the Virgin Mary **

I don’t mean to come off as controversial at all. I was just wondering if I could get some explanation to this. I don’t have a problem with Catholicism, I just want to figure it out. My point here is…**any woman who is having or has had children is not a virgin. It is a biological impossibility. **

Could someone explain this belief to me…

Thanks. 👍
Click to expand...
🤷 Now I know that God speaks to us in the BIBLE! In the first Chapter of Genisis vs 26 God states “Let man be made in our own image and likeness.”

Since when is there anything impossible with the God who created You and Me?

:)👍

Are we going to ask God why HE decided to open up the RED river and allow all of the Isrealites to pass and make the river fall at the moment that the creepies who were trying to kill them to PASS?

I really wonder where these people are coming from who say kill - - - -! We don’t have to worry, God will take care of them in due time!

:)🤷
 
Anything and everything is possible with God.
Our Blessed Lady ever virgin became pregnant with Jesus and gave birth to him.This is just one of many miracles that God has performed.It is very hard for us humans to understand or quantify because our capacity of understanding is limited.God is, always has been, and always will be.God wasnt born ,doesnt die ,our idea of existence is based on the knowledge we have of being humans borne as babies growing up and dying.
Mary was chosen for her chaste life.Jesus had to born as a man he had to die for us.
Joseph her husband was good to Mary and they never consumated the marriage.
Physical sex was not involved as it was unnecessary.I hope this helps
God Bless
 
nestacal said:
🤷 Now I know that God speaks to us in the BIBLE! In the first Chapter of Genisis vs 26 God states “Let man be made in our own image and likeness.”

Since when is there anything impossible with the God who created You and Me?

:)👍

Are we going to ask God why HE decided to open up the RED river and allow all of the Isrealites to pass and make the river fall at the moment that the creepies who were trying to kill them to PASS?

I really wonder where these people are coming from who say kill - - - -! We don’t have to worry, God will take care of them in due time!

:)🤷
Click to expand...
^^ How do we know if any of that is even true?
 
Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you that Nothing is Impossible with GOD!🤷👍🙂
 
AJTheMan said:
All right, thanks guys.

I suppose that this is just a matter of faith. I was always taught that the only way to get pregnant was for a man and woman to come together. Either that or have an artificial insemination.
Click to expand...
If God can create the entire universe out of nothing, then He can surely create a single sperm cell to unite with the egg in Mary’s womb.
 
Tram_Is_the_Way said:
more or less.
Click to expand...
***No, it was not artificial insemination.

We do not know exactly how God did this, but the God who created everything in the Universe out of nothingness could certainly create a sperm cell out of nouthingness.***
 
I think the OP’s problem is that he seems to think that the definition of a virgin today is the same as it was in ancient times. In ancient times a virgin would be one who had never had intercourse. Today some may say a virgin is one who’s hymen was broken.

There are 2 problems with the second definition
  1. This automatically excludes males as being virgins
  2. Some girls who are involved in sports tear their hymen while running. Would you still not call them virgins? Same goes for the Virgin Mary.
 
AJTheMan said:
All right, thanks guys.

I suppose that this is just a matter of faith. I was always taught that the only way to get pregnant was for a man and woman to come together. Either that or have an artificial insemination.
Click to expand...
For humans, that is correct. But there are no limits on what God can do.
 
Traditionally, it has been held from the earliest times that Mary’s hymen was actually intact after the birth of Jesus. This belief shows up in the Protoevangelium of James, which is a pretty early Early Christian work. It’s not thought to be inspired – it’s got some pretty uninspired bits of writing! – but it’s always been held to include a lot of tradition that came from the horse’s mouth.

Jesus being God, and being a great healer of women who just touched the hem of His robe, it’s not really all that outrageous an idea that He might have healed his mother’s hymen in passing. Jesus being God and able to walk through walls after the Resurrection, it’s not that outrageous an idea that He might have teleported out or passed “like light through glass”, as the old saying went.

At any rate, it’s certainly not outrageous to believe that Mary didn’t lie with Joseph or any other man during her entire life. Ever virgin.
 
Mintaka said:
Traditionally, it has been held from the earliest times that Mary’s hymen was actually intact after the birth of Jesus. This belief shows up in the Protoevangelium of James, which is a pretty early Early Christian work. It’s not thought to be inspired – it’s got some pretty uninspired bits of writing! – but it’s always been held to include a lot of tradition that came from the horse’s mouth.

Jesus being God, and being a great healer of women who just touched the hem of His robe, it’s not really all that outrageous an idea that He might have healed his mother’s hymen in passing. Jesus being God and able to walk through walls after the Resurrection, it’s not that outrageous an idea that He might have teleported out or passed “like light through glass”, as the old saying went.

At any rate, it’s certainly not outrageous to believe that Mary didn’t lie with Joseph or any other man during her entire life. Ever virgin.
Click to expand...
Those men even talked about her hymen? Oh jeepers. Talk about a fixation.
 
RobbyS said:
God did not “cause” Mary to be pregnant. Jesus was in no way a “creature.” On the other hand. he was a man, like all men except for sin. He was a man perfectly arrayed for the wedding feast.
Click to expand...
:confused:

Who caused Mary to be pregnant then?

So far, you are not in agreement with the many other catholic posters here that say she was caused to be pregnant.

Elaborate for the slow ones like myself please.
 
StrawberryJam said:
Those men even talked about her hymen? Oh jeepers. Talk about a fixation.
Click to expand...
How can you have a discussion about “ever virgin” without talking about the hymen? It’s just a part of human anatomy for goodness sake. It would be like trying to talk about heart disease without mentioning the heart. It’s just part of the analysis of the discussion, not a fixation.

~Liza
 
AJTheMan said:
All right, thanks guys.

I suppose that this is just a matter of faith. I was always taught that the only way to get pregnant was for a man and woman to come together. Either that or have an artificial insemination.
Click to expand...
Hi 🙂

In every case save the case of Mary giving birth to Jesus, it is biologically impossible for a virgin to conceive and bear a child, all the while keeping her virginity intact. However in this instance, the greatest miracle happened and God Himself entered time from eternity into Mary’s virginal womb, keeping her very much biologically a virgin. For as Luke states in his gospel chapter 1:37, “with God nothing is impossible.” If you believe any part of Christianity–let alone Catholicism–you believe this statement, otherwise how could you believe that a man who was condemned by His own religious authorities, handed over to the oppressors, and crucified is now the King of Kings and Lord of Lords?

You have to be careful in how you discuss Mary’s perpetual virginity. She is ever virgin, meaning before, during, and after the birth of Christ. The Fathers of the Church and the Church since its beginning has testified to this. God, the Light of the World, entered her virginal womb, took on a human nature, and was born to her in a miraculous and supernatural fashion. One Father states that “as light passes through glass without harming it, so the Light of the World was born of Mary without harming her virginity” (paraphrased). This has been the true and consistent teaching of the Catholic Church.

I find it a bit irritating that people can accept that God Himself entered into time without disrupting time’s continuum, but they can’t accept that He entered a woman without disrupting her virginity. That you can believe in an all-powerful God, but you believe in the laws of fallen nature even more. Jesus can rise from the dead, but God can’t be born of a virgin? I just don’t understand how people can limit God like that.

Remember that painful, vaginal childbirth is a punishment for Original Sin–as Mary’s nature was entirely Immaculate (that is “filled with grace” as the angel Gabriel declared), you cannot attribute to her the effects of the Fall of Man. This type of birth did not apply to her as she was entirely–biologically, emotionally, mentally, and morally–unaffected by Original Sin.

Following are some bullet points I’ve put together for an easier read-through, though I encourage you to read the passages from the Catechism (CCC) and other sources cited therein.
 
Perpetual virginity—declared at the 1st Lateran Council at 649 by Pope Martine 1st—confirmed at the Ecumenical council of Constantinople of 681
• The Doctrine teaches that Mary was virginal before the birth of Christ, during the birth of Chris and after the birth of Christ

Virginity before the birth
• Before the birth of Christ—apostle’s creed “Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary” Jesus is not born of a human father, but born of a Father
• Isaiah 7:14—“ Behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and they shall call him Emmanuel”
• Recent scholarship suggests that virgin could just mean young girl, Almah in the Hebrew always means a virgin in the OT—partenos in Greek which only means virgin, and St. Matthew confirms that the birth of Jesus fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah
• Luke 1:26 Annunciation—Gabriel states that you shall conceive and bear a son, how can this be since I know not man, statement of her virginity
• This is a permanent disposition “I know not man”
• How will this be, question of instrumentality vs. Zechariah who doubted how it will occur
• The Church fathers vehemently defend this position
Virginity during the birth
• As light passes through glass without harming the glass, so to Jesus left the womb of Mary in a miraculous fashion, without harm to Mary’s physical virginity
• Pius 12th 1943 Mystici Corporus makes reference to the virgin birth
• Why would God the Father want Jesus to be born miraculously?
• Is 7:14 uses two verbs, Conceive and Bear
• Bear the Emmanuel, bearing in a virginal manor
• Confirmed further in the teachings of the fathers, Pope St. Leo “Mary brought him forth with her virginity untouched as with her virginity untouched she conceived him”
• St. Thomas: “Painlessly and without change in Mary’s body, Christ emerged from the tabernacle of her spotless womb”
• St. Augustine “Jesus was born by a divine power without physical violation to Mary’s virginity"
• Mary gave a painless birth to Jesus, according to the Council of Trent, it is a miraculous birth
• LG 57–the birth of Jesus did not violate Mary’s integrity but rather sanctified it–CCC 499
• Theology of the Body tells us that the body expresses the person, the external is really expressing the internal, what is in the heart therefore Mary’s physical virginity is the perfect bodily expression of her interior virginity
• Only one woman was to be the perfect example of both virgins and mothers
• Also, don’t think in exclusively fallen nature terms—if nature is immaculate you don’t want to attribute fallen natural characteristics
• As Jesus left the tomb without disturbing the rock, so Jesus left the womb of Mary without disturbing —Mary in deep contemplation and Jesus is in her arms (possible)
Virginity after the birth of Christ
• Mary never had marital relations or other children apart from Jesus
• Nicene Creed—“Ever-virgin Mary”, the explicit teaching of Pope St. Siricius 392
• The 1st Eucharistic canon written around 200, which makes reference to the ever-virgin mother of God
• Luke 1:31 “How will this be since I know not man”—how can this be since I have a vow of virginity—a vow which she would have to reveal to Joseph and he would have to honor that vow
• 3 objections to Our Lady’s perpetual virginity
• 1) Matthew 1:18-25 “Before” and “until”
• Before and until infer that it had to take place afterwards is the common objections
• These words only establish what has not yet taken place, regardless of what takes place afterward
• 2 Samuel 6:23—Michael the daughter of Saul had no children until the day of death
• He didn’t convert before he died
• 2) Bretheren of Jesus: James, Joseph, Simon, and Jude—Greek = adelphos which means brother, cousin, near relative, or even kinsmen, someone from your home town, not limited to blood brother relationship
• Hebrew ah = same meaning
• Ex) Genesis 13:8 Lot is called Abraham’s brother, but he is actually a cousin, which we find out in Gen 12:5
• 3) If Mary was a perpetual virgin then Mary and Joseph were not validly married, because there was no consummation of the marriage
• Matrimony at its essence is a complete gift of self to the other in God an this indeed is what Mary and Joseph give to each other, even thought they mutually agree not to exchange the physical gift
• The Consummation of a marriage is confirming that the total self-gift has been given
• It could be an indication that the self-gift is not there (that’s why its possible to be annulled)
• The more self-mastery you have the more easily you can give of yourself to another
• Marriage does not guarantee a thoughtful loving exchange, it just provides the parameters which it must take place
• Non-physical intimacy which goes beyond any physical giving
• Mystical tradition states that Mary went to the Rabbi in charge of the temple and feels called to her vow and yet she is betrothed, She reveals to Joseph her desire and he reveals that he shares that he also had thought of this kind of self-gift but he was open to God’s will in any way but he felt bound to his vow to Mary

I hope this has helped at least a little, and God bless you as you seek His Truth.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top