Virginia Tech Massacre (Worst in U.S. History?)

[Legal_Eagle]

I’m somewhat annoyed at the fact that no one seems to recall the Massacre at Beslan three years ago. Chechen terrorists captured a Middle School in Russia and murdered over 180 innocent children and killed almost 200 more people.

I must disagree a bit here. Comparing Beslan to Virgina Tech is really apples and oranges. Beslan was a terrorist attack. The young man at Virgina Tech was mentally unbalanced. Different motives. Different circumstances. Same tragic outcome.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

Some of what you say is true, But please tell me what the NRA “lobby” has to do with violence in the country. I think you are repeating a sound bite from the Democrat Party that has nothing to do with reality.

What the NRA lobby has to do with violence in the country is simple. The NRA is an extraordinarily powerful lobbying presence in Washington and in most state capitals. They make it politically impossible for lawmakers to even have reasonable discussions about gun violence and possible solutions.

Money and influence run the federal and state governments in this nation, and the NRA has lots of both. It makes no difference which major party is in power. Both are powerless when it comes to passing sensible gun laws. And that powerlessness can be directly attributed to the money and influence of the NRA.

 

[Oblaidon]

There is a huge difference between those shootings and abortion, its like comparing apples and oranges. Fetuses are fetuses, not babies…pretending they are such doesn’t mean they are, its like calling a caterpillar a butterfly. It might be one someday but at the present its not. The senseless, random murder of college kids like that is much different than destroying an embryo or a fetus.

Yes, a fetus is not a baby. A baby is not a toddler. A toddler is not a teenager. A teenager is not an adult. It is the disregard for human life that is at question here.

VT is a tragic loss. There are many emotions involved. For that reason, I don’ t think we should bring abortion to the fore front of this issue. The person who said, “one life loss is one too many” was right on. The media is going to do what it will do because of ratings. It is legal to kill a fetus as long as it is still in the womb. That is also a tragedy.

 

[dessert]

See my previous post for where I believe the connection lies: the culture of death.

But why must human beings prove their worth in order for the loss of their lives to be considered tragic? We are valuable ONLY because we are created by God, in His image. That is where the worth of the human person lies.

We do not merit human dignity (or salvation…) through anything we do in this life (though our actions do reflect the state of grace of our souls). It is all a miniscule achievement in God’s divine plan of creation and salvation.

I am good because God created me and blessed me with His grace so that I may do good; my actions, in themselves, do not make me good. It is all the grace of God. Killing me is wrong because it is a denial of the goodness of my creation by God.

As a college student at another campus, I can safely say that I would not feel one ounce safer if there were guns in classrooms. I don’t want them there, or I at least don’t want to know that they’re there. (I honestly have no idea what Indiana’s weapons laws are.) It would probably make me feel more unsafe to have to carry my ID everywhere to get into buildings, have my bags searched as I go through metal detectors, and know that in that little black box under the podium there is a locked and loaded gun, ‘just in case’.

Can anyone imagine what this would practically be like on college campuses? Training professors to use weapons? Training students?

Look, if someone wants to carry out this kind of attack, it’s going to happen. Having a gun in the classroom to ‘engage’ the attacker…not going to work. For someone wielding two semiautomatic weapons and with murderous intent, the locked handgun in the hands of a relatively un-trained faculty member is probably just going to get them killed.

Let me recommend that you find out what your state’s weapon laws are and get concerned just as an individual and as a student. You should find out what you have available for a defense, whether it be a stungun or mace or whatever.
There should be a plan, checks and an action to take as it is more than natural didasters that is stiking our children today more than tornados and hurricanes and nuclear war .
No I am not armed either but I will not put my head in the sand and I keep my doors locked most of the time.
Everyone or the administration should know how to call a swat team or code names or such because we are not in age where the only thing we need to know is how to stop drop and roll.
Where I work we have numerous codes and I work in retail so we deal with this “public” all the time and everyone of us have to know how to be security and the police come to our store almost everyday, and they respond immediately and we don’t care if our store gets a rep for it, there are consequences for every action or word so we deal with it head on. None of us gets fired for telling a customer the truth in a polite christian way and that is the dignity that you are speaking of. I have my right to feel safe and whereever I am no matter how the evil in this world wants to say I have to run and hide.
When you stand up next to another student and face the bully, another student, square in the eye God is there.
He or she will back down or you will be a martyr.
I have been tested at work on this and as a Catholic I have to say the cross is the witness.
Your post is appropriate just wanted to add more to it. Thanks
You are our future generation, all the students, you have the challenge that we did not face because from my memory all the priests, I can be liberal with this satements as I believe not feel believe the priest of my day wore the crucifix around their neck outside so others could see, and now God will have to raise up other stones to praise Him because humanity is being lost. We have a social worker priest and a civil engineer priest because they realize this and God will raise up more, also because of people with convictions as you.
How do we know those 32 people were going to be worthy of the world or heaven, no we don’t but how do we know that we are killing a next peace activist in abortion, only say we if we are not doing anything. Help the "Priests for Life ". Dessert

 

[mary_bobo]

What the NRA lobby has to do with violence in the country is simple. The NRA is an extraordinarily powerful lobbying presence in Washington and in most state capitals. They make it politically impossible for lawmakers to even have reasonable discussions about gun violence and possible solutions.

Money and influence run the federal and state governments in this nation, and the NRA has lots of both. It makes no difference which major party is in power. Both are powerless when it comes to passing sensible gun laws. And that powerlessness can be directly attributed to the money and influence of the NRA.

Gee, I did not know the NRA had such power. Have you ever considered that some of the politicians supporting our second amendment are doing just that? And I don’t think we want to get into a discussion about interest groups that support the two parties.

 

[dessert]

What the NRA lobby has to do with violence in the country is simple. The NRA is an extraordinarily powerful lobbying presence in Washington and in most state capitals. They make it politically impossible for lawmakers to even have reasonable discussions about gun violence and possible solutions.

Money and influence run the federal and state governments in this nation, and the NRA has lots of both. It makes no difference which major party is in power. Both are powerless when it comes to passing sensible gun laws. And that powerlessness can be directly attributed to the money and influence of the NRA.

The money is running this country not the NRA and if you want to look at the other end of the stick look at all the business that don’t even care about the health of people, alcohol and tobacco companies, do they care about anyones health no they want to bulid roads so that the people can get to the doctor after they get the cancer from smoking their cigs. It does make a difference who is in power. There is no middle class! The rich and the poor and we are all on the same boat so we need to help each other because the name of that boat is the TITANIC. Dessert

 

[Legal_Eagle]

Gee, I did not know the NRA had such power.

The NRA is extremely powerful. You don’t have to look to hard to get confirmation of that.

Have you ever considered that some of the politicians supporting our second amendment are doing just that?

Actually, I’m pretty skeptical when when it comes right down to it. If your arguing that a particular politician is acting on principal rather than on behalf of people who are lining his or her pockets, or on behalf of who can deliver the most votes, then I would say that the burden is on you to prove it. That having been said, there are always exceptions to every rule.

And I don’t think we want to get into a discussion about interest groups that support the two parties.

We can get into any discussion you like. That’s why I come to this site.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

The money is running this country not the NRA and if you want to look at the other end of the stick look at all the business that don’t even care about the health of people, alcohol and tobacco companies, do they care about anyones health no they want to bulid roads so that the people can get to the doctor after they get the cancer from smoking their cigs. It does make a difference who is in power. There is no middle class! The rich and the poor and we are all on the same boat so we need to help each other because the name of that boat is the TITANIC. Dessert

I agree that the alcohol and tobacco companies are very powerful and both have very influential lobbies in government. The list of business who don’t care about people and the politicians who take their money and do their bidding is a long one. But this discussion was about violence in our society. It was not necessarily about bad government, though that did figure in. I guess maybe we got the discussion off track.

Where’s a moderator when you need one?

 

[vern_humphrey]

What the NRA lobby has to do with violence in the country is simple. The NRA is an extraordinarily powerful lobbying presence in Washington and in most state capitals. They make it politically impossible for lawmakers to even have reasonable discussions about gun violence and possible solutions.

Money and influence run the federal and state governments in this nation, and the NRA has lots of both. It makes no difference which major party is in power. Both are powerless when it comes to passing sensible gun laws. And that powerlessness can be directly attributed to the money and influence of the NRA.

You must be quoting directly from Handgun Control talking points.

The NRA promotes firearms safety, notably the highly successful Eddie Eagle program. As a result, firearms accidents have steadily decreased for decades – in fact, firearms accidentts are so rare that if it weren’t so political they wouldn’t even be categorized. A child, for example, is about eight times more likely to drown in the family swimming poor than through a firearms accident.

The NRA also supports a basic civil right – one honored by the 2nd Amendment. One of the things it has done is push for Liberalized (or “Shall issue”) laws for concealed carry, which is highly correlated with a drop in violent crime.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

You must be quoting directly from Handgun Control talking points.

So first I was repeating something I heard from the Democrats, now I’m reading from a Handgun Control pamphlet. And all this time I thought I was thinking for myself. Oh well, what do I know?

What I know is that every other “first world” nation on the planet has much more strict gun ownership laws than we do. I also know that of the “first world” nations ours has far and away and hands down the highest rates of violence. I also know what that violence has done to individuals, families, communities and our society as a whole. I also know that because of the NRA and its influence, our elected officials are simply incapable of discussing any options for dealing with this violence which might include actually removing those instruments of death from our streets.

 

[vern_humphrey]

So first I was repeating something I heard from the Democrats, now I’m reading from a Handgun Control pamphlet. And all this time I thought I was thinking for myself. Oh well, what do I know?

What I know is that every other “first world” nation on the planet has much more strict gun ownership laws than we do. I also know that of the “first world” nations ours has far and away and hands down the highest rates of violence. I also know what that violence has done to individuals, families, communities and our society as a whole. I also know that because of the NRA and its influence, our elected officials are simply incapable of discussing any options for dealing with this violence which might include actually removing those instruments of death from our streets.

You say you’re a lawyer?

Aren’t you as an officer of the court, required to take the oath in Article 6 of the Constitution?

How do you square that with the position you’re taking here?

 

[mary_bobo]

So first I was repeating something I heard from the Democrats, now I’m reading from a Handgun Control pamphlet. And all this time I thought I was thinking for myself. Oh well, what do I know?

What I know is that every other “first world” nation on the planet has much more strict gun ownership laws than we do. I also know that of the “first world” nations ours has far and away and hands down the highest rates of violence. I also know what that violence has done to individuals, families, communities and our society as a whole. I also know that because of the NRA and its influence, our elected officials are simply incapable of discussing any options for dealing with this violence which might include actually removing those instruments of death from our streets.

You have pointed out the problem. Now suggest a solution. Also link us to the “facts” you have stated. Thanks.

 

[mary_bobo]

The NRA is extremely powerful. You don’t have to look to hard to get confirmation of that.

Actually, I’m pretty skeptical when when it comes right down to it. If your arguing that a particular politician is acting on principal rather than on behalf of people who are lining his or her pockets, or on behalf of who can deliver the most votes, then I would say that the burden is on you to prove it. That having been said, there are always exceptions to every rule.

We can get into any discussion you like. That’s why I come to this site.

I am not saying that the NRA does not have influence, but how about some of the other interest groups that have great holds on some of the politicians. What I did say is that there are some politicians who value the Constitution and seek to protect the rights of citizens contained therein.

Spin it however it suits your purpose.

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms…disarm only those who are neither inclined or determined to commit crime…Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man maybe attacked with greater confidence than an armed man”.

–Thomas Jefferson “Commonplace Book”

 

[vern_humphrey]

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms…disarm only those who are neither inclined or determined to commit crime…Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man maybe attacked with greater confidence than an armed man”.

–Thomas Jefferson “Commonplace Book”

And Virginia Tech set out to prove Jeffersno was right, and sadly enough, they succeeded.

 

[Legal_Eagle]

You say you’re a lawyer?

Aren’t you as an officer of the court, required to take the oath in Article 6 of the Constitution?

How do you square that with the position you’re taking here?

You mean to “support and defend the Constitution” like soldiers, police officers or elected officials take? No. In my state lawyers don’t take that oath unless we’re prosecutors or work for law enforcement or the State in some capacity. BUT supporting the Constitution does not necessarily entail supporting one particular interpretation or understanding of what is or is not guaranteed by any specific provision.

For instance, if President Bush interprets a particular law in a particular way and takes an action based upon that interpretation that is later determined by the Supreme Court to be unconstitutional that just means he was wrong in his understanding. It doesn’t necessarily mean that he violated his oath of office.

 

[vern_humphrey]

You mean to “support and defend the Constitution” like soldiers, police officers or elected officials take? No. In my state lawyers don’t take that oath unless we’re prosecutors or work for law enforcement or the State in some capacity. BUT supporting the Constitution does not necessarily entail supporting one particular interpretation or understanding of what is or is not guaranteed by any specific provision.

For instance, if President Bush interprets a particular law in a particular way and takes an action based upon that interpretation that is later determined by the Supreme Court to be unconstitutional that just means he was wrong in his understanding. It doesn’t necessarily mean that he violated his oath of office.

The oath doesn’t cover just part of the Constitution – it covers the whole constitution. One who takes it is olbiged to support even the parts he doesn’t like.

In the case of the 2nd Amendment, the wording is so clear, and so well explained in the Federalist Papers that those who pretend it means something else may fairly be blamed with violating their oaths – and that’s an act of moral turpitude,

 

[dessert]

So first I was repeating something I heard from the Democrats, now I’m reading from a Handgun Control pamphlet. And all this time I thought I was thinking for myself. Oh well, what do I know?

What I know is that every other “first world” nation on the planet has much more strict gun ownership laws than we do. I also know that of the “first world” nations ours has far and away and hands down the highest rates of violence. I also know what that violence has done to individuals, families, communities and our society as a whole. I also know that because of the NRA and its influence, our elected officials are simply incapable of discussing any options for dealing with this violence which might include actually removing those instruments of death from our streets.

Do you really want to go back to the 60’s when they used clubs on everyone. Now they have stun guns.
They have as much crime sorry have no sites but I think is just not reported, same here. Afterall the Pope has to have bullet proof car too. And since the 80’s our poiticians are not secure. So do you think we would have to have less security if no guns? I don’t think so more or same? And then we would have more bombers.

Maybe we should just blame Roy Rogers.

 

[Aramis]

He was a green carded citizen of the country…not really a valid point.

I don’t buy for an instant that the community can’t step up and change the schools for the better. I’d like to see the stats for us being at the most ‘criminal’ point in our history…

Jennifer

A citizen is NEVER green-carded. By definition, he was a resident alien, not a citizen.

 

[Jennifer_J]

A citizen is NEVER green-carded. By definition, he was a resident alien, not a citizen.

Oops, sorry, he was a legal, permanent resident–one step below citizenship…and he was legally allowed to purchase a gun (for good or bad…)

Jennifer

 

[DanteAlighieri]

It was for protection, period, sis.

I’m not interested in debating someone who feels the need to be disrespectful.

Peace,
Dante