Virginity and marriage.

[LethalMouse]

Male or female, I feel like there’s a lot to be said for a spouse having spent some time keeping house for themselves.

True, I suppose I mean though more about typical parental treatment. Many adult women living at home have less freedom than I had at 15. Just that higher protectiveness. At least in my experience.

But in fairness as my one old buddy went from male virgin super goody to within a year of moving out of the stricter parent house was a borderline alcoholic knocking chicks up…

So yeah, gotta make sure hubby aint going to be like him as much as worry wifey didnt just “miss out” on party girl phase.

 

[LethalMouse]

The RedPill world is full of contradictions. They want the lowest possible risk of divorce - and to marry an uneducated 18 year old with no job skills. They want a SAHW, but women who don’t work are entitled princesses living off the labor of men. They want to be respected as strong, capable leaders, but they don’t want to be expected to actually meet any sort of standards or be held accountable. Free, unearned respect is hardly real respect.

I’m actually relatively new to all of this (Xan actually showed me a few of the sites for the first time not too long ago), but it all strikes me as, well, crazy. Its built around delusions of grandeur, painful loneliness, and desperate attempts to reduce authentic human interaction to a simple math formula. When you get past the insults, language, and anger, it’s all very sad. (It also reminds me of Scientology in that it totally changes how its adherents speak and think to the point where communicating with outsiders becomes very difficult).

I showed some of it to my husband to get a man’s take and his theory is that men are bigger, stronger, faster, more successful, admired, and respected (on average), they make more money (on average), and they are the most visible and renouned people in most fields. But despite all of this, women still get to choose their partners. Being told “no, not interested” by someone who is “lesser” drives a certain subset of men crazy. That’s the one thing they can’t do over women - make women want them. I’m not sure if I agree with this theory or if it explains all of it, but I thought it was interesting and certainly plausable.

His other statement that totally cracked me up was in regards to the idea that if a woman is successful, she can’t or won’t be interested in her husband. Of course, the RP solution to this is keeping women locked away until early marriage and motherhood. Hubby’s solution was better though: “Have they ever considered just being better men?”

Scientology ref was gold

The “better men” is often a good point

See IDK how you ladies can claim feminism tho!

I cant get behind these dudes and feminism went as off the rails as they are.

It hurts my head that some can’t see past that which benifits them, whether it be the red pill men or feminist women

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Scientology ref was gold

The “better men” is often a good point

See IDK how you ladies can claim feminism tho!

I cant get behind these dudes and feminism went as off the rails as they are.

It hurts my head that some can’t see past that which benifits them, whether it be the red pill men or feminist women

I’m absolutely a feminist because I know what my mother and grandma went through prior to the 1970’s.

But that’s all related to employment, education, sexual and physical abuse, and equal opportunities in public and civic life. My marriage is a private agreement and has nothing to do with any of that. I dont need feminism to liberate me from the man and life I chose. I need feminism to keep things like birth control and abortion accessible (yeah, I said it), to keep me from being discriminated against in employment and housing, especially in regards to pregnancy. If I’m ever the victim of rape, I definitely need feminism to have my report taken seriously and actually investigated.

Why would a woman decide that since she’s happily married, she no longer needs all of the protections previous generations fought so hard for? That would only be foolish.

And more to the point, there will always be women who don’t have the life, family, husband, and advantages I have. I want them to be protected too.

 

[LethalMouse]

I’m absolutely a feminist because I know what my mother and grandma went through prior to the 1970’s.

But that’s all related to employment, education, sexual and physical abuse, and equal opportunities in public and civic life. My marriage is a private agreement and has nothing to do with any of that. I dont need feminism to liberate me from the man and life I chose. I need feminism to keep things like birth control and abortion accessible (yeah, I said it), to keep me from being discriminated against in employment and housing, especially in regards to pregnancy. If I’m ever the victim of rape, I definitely need feminism to have my report taken seriously and actually investigated.

Why would a woman decide that since she’s happily married, she no longer needs all of the protections previous generations fought so hard for? That would only be foolish.

And more to the point, there will always be women who don’t have the life, family, husband, and advantages I have. I want them to be protected too.

Lol thanks, you see the red pill guys have a million reasons why red pill is good too.

Tou proved my point, extremists on both sides can not see themselves

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Lol thanks, you see the red pill guys have a million reasons why red pill is good too.

Tou proved my point, extremists on both sides can not see themselves

Except that the RP stance is blatantly anti women.

Investigating rape claims, the freedom to use birth control, the opportunity to get an education and a job take nothing from men. RP wants these things taken from women because they openly believe that women don’t deserve the same opportunities and protections as men. The idea is that if women are helpless, the men will somehow be more appealing.

There are a few issues within the men’s rights movement that I would consider comparable to feminism, such as circumcision, requiring a police report (not conviction) to begin an administrative investigation into college sexual assault, treatment of male underage sex abuse victims, and a few specific custody issues. But these issues are predicated on the idea that men and women should be treated equally (much the feminist issues I listed earlier). The online RP world does not share that equality assumption.

 

[LethalMouse]

Both are terrible, but lets just lay this out.

RP jerks = slave wife maybe or maybe nottreated unfairly depebding on the guy

Feninism = murder babies…

Plus yes the RP guys push the envelope. And I agree they take things far too far but

Not all “end false rape” means rape is legal just as not all women who want rape to not happen mean they want free reign to claim rape.

But in the end if you link up with either group, the end advocacy is either extreme.

But in the end only one movement considers the murder of babies an integral part of “equality”

Granted half the other movement is probably cool with it becasue it lwts then “off the hook” but at least I havent YET heard it considered important to have legal baby murder.

Though given the nature of extremists they might get on board to try and mainstream their cause and we can have a whole host iof insane selfish men/women crying out for lopsided things and baby murder.

 

[SilverShadow22]

It appears that BEL would like to reap the benefits of a traditional family scenario, while also espousing the same demonic philosophy which focuses all its effort on destroying said scenario. While also retaining the right to disrupt natural fertility in highly damaging ways and kill her own children if she chooses.

There is nothing like wanting to have it both ways…

 

[LethalMouse]

TBH I would gladly give in all rights and submit to all thing feminism and take upon myself the role of slave husband if we could stop murdering babies.

I would be the happiest slave martyr to ever exist.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Both are terrible, but lets just lay this out.

RP jerks = slave wife maybe or maybe nottreated unfairly depebding on the guy

Feninism = murder babies…

Plus yes the RP guys push the envelope. And I agree they take things far too far but

Not all “end false rape” means rape is legal just as not all women who want rape to not happen mean they want free reign to claim rape.

But in the end if you link up with either group, the end advocacy is either extreme.

But in the end only one movement considers the murder of babies an integral part of “equality”

Granted half the other movement is probably cool with it becasue it lwts then “off the hook” but at least I havent YET heard it considered important to have legal baby murder.

Though given the nature of extremists they might get on board to try and mainstream their cause and we can have a whole host iof insane selfish men/women crying out for lopsided things and baby murder.

Wanting to be able to attend school, work in the field of your choice, and marry who you choose is not “extreme”. That you think it’s so tells me what I need to know. Unfortunately, many women were denied those things I’m decades past, and in many parts of the world, they still are.

On the other hand, wanting to “restore” marriage to the ownership of women by men is extreme. Very extreme, actually.

I don’t have a problem with men fighting for what benefits them, especially in the face of discrimination and injustice. Nor do I have any problem with women doing the same. It only becomes a problem when it’s at the expense of the other gender. “At the expense of women” should just be the RP slogan.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It appears that BEL would like to reap the benefits of a traditional family scenario, while also espousing the same demonic philosophy which focuses all its effort on destroying said scenario. While also retaining the right to disrupt natural fertility in highly damaging ways and kill her own children if she chooses.

There is nothing like wanting to have it both ways…

I never bought this argument. The “traditional family” is actually thriving in UMC liberal circles.

I’ll say this, when the traditional family works, it works beautifully. When it doesn’t, people (usually women and children) get hurt or even killed. Knowing what my own relatives went through before there was any recourse for victims of abuse has convinced me that every adult should retain their basic civil autonomy and rights.

 

[SilverShadow22]

I never bought this argument. The “traditional family” is actually thriving in UMC liberal circles.

I’ll say this, when the traditional family works, it works beautifully. When it doesn’t, people (usually women and children) get hurt or even killed. Knowing what my own relatives went through before there was any recourse for victims of abuse has convinced me that every adult should retain their basic civil autonomy and rights.

And I never bought THIS argument.

Once again everyone extrapolates a niche experience to the entire world.

 

[LethalMouse]

Wanting to be able to attend school, work in the field of your choice, and marry who you choose is not “extreme”. That you think it’s so tells me what I need to know. Unfortunately, many women were denied those things I’m decades past, and in many parts of the world, they still are.

I barely think even starship is against this.
Again first you say “defend BC and baby murder”

Now you only say “have jobs and school” epic pharisee like trickery.

On the other hand, wanting to “restore” marriage to the ownership of women by men is extreme. Very extreme, actually.

I never argued that, hence I repeatedly stand against RP in this thread

I don’t have a problem with men fighting for what benefits them, especially in the face of discrimination and injustice. Nor do I have any problem with women doing the same. It only becomes a problem when it’s at the expense of the other gender.

That last line is what happens when we fight for “us” and not all. Always has and always will, whether feminism or RP

“At the expense of women” should just be the RP slogan.

And in the end the same exact motto can be apllied to feminism only swapping the word women for men.

No different in either case in the END for whatever truths exist or exosted along the way. The outcome is the same with both.

 

[pensmama87]

Wanting to be able to attend school, work in the field of your choice, and marry who you choose is not “extreme”. That you think it’s so tells me what I need to know. Unfortunately, many women were denied those things I’m decades past, and in many parts of the world, they still are.

On the other hand, wanting to “restore” marriage to the ownership of women by men is extreme. Very extreme, actually.

I don’t have a problem with men fighting for what benefits them, especially in the face of discrimination and injustice. Nor do I have any problem with women doing the same. It only becomes a problem when** it’s at the expense of the other gender**. “At the expense of women” should just be the RP slogan.

I realize that this will in all likelihood not persuade you, but Catholics would of course say that their primary objection to abortion is that it’s at the expense of another (who cannot voice objection.) It’s not about keeping women down (though I will say, and this was a big part of why I considered myself pro-choice when I did, that some men very much use women in this way and it’s horrible. But abortion is a poor solution to that problem and creates more victims IMO.)

I no longer consider myself a feminist because of the mainstream movement’s commitment to this issue, but really, I think we could all get a lot further if we quit looking at other people as things. Which is central to the Church’s understanding of marriage, interestingly enough.

This thread has really become extreme and bizarre. People are people and deserve to be treated with dignity. The fact that some very young people are so bitter and resentful and don’t even realize it or care is very sad to me.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It appears that BEL would like to reap the benefits of a traditional family scenario, while also espousing the same demonic philosophy which focuses all its effort on destroying said scenario. While also retaining the right to disrupt natural fertility in highly damaging ways and kill her own children if she chooses.

There is nothing like wanting to have it both ways…

I’m also not sure how this is strictly a woman’s issue. My husband absolutely wants me on birth control and if it failed, he would want an abortion. These things also protect him from becoming a parent against his wishes.

 

[LethalMouse]

I never bought this argument. The “traditional family” is actually thriving in UMC liberal circles.

I’ll say this, when the traditional family works, it works beautifully. When it doesn’t, people (usually women and children) get hurt or even killed. Knowing what my own relatives went through before there was any recourse for victims of abuse has convinced me that every adult should retain their basic civil autonomy and rights.

The bold, it is like war vets who cant get over racism when they saw what the enemy did.

Some WW2 vets for example “I dont wanna be racist but I cant like the Japanese after seeing what they did to the chinese civilans”

Obly they usually admitted they knew it was disordered.

You bring an extra level of self righteous to the table. As many sadly do.

 

[LethalMouse]

I realize that this will in all likelihood not persuade you, but Catholics would of course say that their primary objection to abortion is that it’s at the expense of another (who cannot voice objection.) It’s not about keeping women down (though I will say, and this was a big part of why I considered myself pro-choice when I did, that some men very much use women in this way and it’s horrible. But abortion is a poor solution to that problem and creates more victims IMO.)

I no longer consider myself a feminist because of the mainstream movement’s commitment to this issue, but really, I think we could all get a lot further if we quit looking at other people as things. Which is central to the Church’s understanding of marriage, interestingly enough.

This thread has really become extreme and bizarre. People are people and deserve to be treated with dignity. The fact that some very young people are so bitter and resentful and don’t even realize it or care is very sad to me.

Even if I am part of the strange and bizarre lol

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I realize that this will in all likelihood not persuade you, but Catholics would of course say that their primary objection to abortion is that it’s at the expense of another (who cannot voice objection.) It’s not about keeping women down (though I will say, and this was a big part of why I considered myself pro-choice when I did, that some men very much use women in this way and it’s horrible. But abortion is a poor solution to that problem and creates more victims IMO.)

I no longer consider myself a feminist because of the mainstream movement’s commitment to this issue, but really, I think we could all get a lot further if we quit looking at other people as things. Which is central to the Church’s understanding of marriage, interestingly enough.

This thread has really become extreme and bizarre. People are people and deserve to be treated with dignity. The fact that some very young people are so bitter and resentful and don’t even realize it or care is very sad to me.

I don’t view abortion as quintessential to feminism. I also don’t view women in combat or the differences between men and women’s prisons quite the same. A sane society accommodates biology. I have my own opinions on these things, but I think that because if the physical differences between men and women, there’s a lot more room for reasonable people to disagree.

 

[SilverShadow22]

I’m also not sure how this is strictly a woman’s issue. My husband absolutely wants me on birth control and if it failed, he would want an abortion. These things also protect him from becoming a parent against his wishes.

Then you’re just using each other for sex while selfishly avoiding responsibility for the consequences of sex (CHILDREN), even to the point of the cold blooded, paid assassination of your own child.

If you can’t see the problem with that, then of course feminisn can’t look extreme to you.

The bottom line is that if you 100% don’t want children then don’t get married. In fact, being unopen to children prohibits a valid marriage in the first place. I know you can’t understand that but since you seem to be somehow monogamous despite that, I wonder just what exactly you think marriage is for, if it’s not to create a stable environment for the raising of children?

It’s a women’s issue because it’s not MEN who are being asked to consume dangerously toxic hormones over long periods of time simply to avoid pregnancy.

Nor is it the man who would have a child ripped from inside them with risk of very dangerous complications.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

The bold, it is like war vets who cant get over racism when they saw what the enemy did.

Some WW2 vets for example “I dont wanna be racist but I cant like the Japanese after seeing what they did to the chinese civilans”

Obly they usually admitted they knew it was disordered.

You bring an extra level of self righteous to the table. As many sadly do.

What a terrible, anti intellectual comparison.

If I said “After seeing what men do…I don’t like men” you would have a point. Instead, I said “After seeing what happens when one person is given an inordinate amount of power over another, I want to avoid that system”.

I don’t know why the idea of women making their own life choices threatens you so much. I also wouldn’t want to put men under the thumb of women. We all deserve the right, and have the responsibility, to direct our own lives.

 

[LethalMouse]

I’m also not sure how this is strictly a woman’s issue. My husband absolutely wants me on birth control and if it failed, he would want an abortion. These things also protect him from becoming a parent against his wishes.

This is a big part of why “my marriage works” is a weak thing to value for a catholic on here and a grand scheme of the drop of poison in the cup.

I am NOT applying this extreme to you but using it as a clearer illustration.

There are “successful” satanist marriages. Said marriages may do SOME things that track across, but taking their advice is like drinking a poisoned cup of great coffee if you cant survive the poison.

NO you are not a “satanist” but when you come and tell catholic women how to be like you, and often have belittled those who are not “successfully” married while your marriage is tied in ways to mutual acceptance of a poison…

Tis dangerous.

And in the end I honestly believe feminism does more harm to women than men. Just as tbh I see RP doing the same as in more harm to men.

RP is a bastion for the scared and weak man riddled with partial truth.

I said before any women (or man) who needs to proclaim there “power” from the rooftops has none.

Feminism sends the weakest women into the biggest battles and RP does the same to men or sends themrunning from the battles that would otherwise forge them and create a strong person.