Visiting a Traditional Latin Mass

[Peeps]

I took 2 years of Latin, and I still don’t understand a lot of it. As many commenters have indicated, if you print the Latin Mass text, and just follow along, you’ll eventually get there.

I don’t get it (convert here!).

Everyone talks about doing the Ordinary Form of the Mass in Latin.

But…why not do the Extraordinary Form of the Mass in the vernacular?

That way, people could understand it without consulting a translation. Translations are legitimate, right? It’s OK to use a translation while attending the Latin Mass, right?

Now I’ve seen plenty of posts here on CAF to the effect that translating the Latin in the EF is somehow “not good”–that the Latin contains “something” that makes it “heavenly, not of this earth,” and advising people to just “listen and not try to translate.”

I don’t buy that. Sorry, Latin lovers. I like hearing stuff in my own beautiful language (English), and I read the translations when I attend the Latin Mass in our city, and I don’t feel that I am diluting anything. I like many of the prayers, and the differences between the EF and the OF, and I think that hearing the EF in my own language would be great, and I think it would attract a very large crowd.

So…is my suggestion a terrible faux pas forgiveable only because I am a convert?

 

[Cor_ad_Cor]

I think it’s because…

Everyone talks about doing the Ordinary Form of the Mass in Latin.

This is currently permitted and, in fact, implied by the liturgical documents.

But…why not do the Extraordinary Form of the Mass in the vernacular?

This is not and would require action by the Vatican to even be an option. One that would cause a lot of fuss since some like the idea and others don’t, and the EF-attending population is a small proportion of the overall Latin Church population.

 

[commenter]

I think it’s because…

Peeps:

Everyone talks about doing the Ordinary Form of the Mass in Latin.

This is currently permitted and, in fact, implied by the liturgical documents.

But…why not do the Extraordinary Form of the Mass in the vernacular?

This is not and would require action by the Vatican to even be an option.

I would very much like to see the Vatican institute this option!
I took 4 years of Latin, and try to keep it up somewhat. When I visit the EF,
I am struck by two two things:

1. I love the emphasis on the transcendent, the supernatural, the Presence of God Almighty. This is the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. I am a sinner, I can be forgiven.
2. I get distracted by the Latin per se.

I’d like them to translate everything but the hymns into vernacular. To a slight degree, the 2011(?) OF was a move in that direction.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

But…why not do the Extraordinary Form of the Mass in the vernacular?

Because the point of doing the EF is to do it in the traditional manner, which means Latin.

Not to come up with brand new rites for saying Mass. We certainly don’t need any more of that, there is enough contention over the OF already.

Edited to add, I suppose it would be possible for some priest to say the 1965 Tridentine Mass, which is considered the first Post-Vatican II Mass as the OF (aka Mass of Pope Paul VI) didn’t come along till 1969. The 1965 Mass was more in the vernacular, although there was still some Latin used. I attended these Masses with my parents as a preschooler and have a very vague memory of them. However, I don’t think there’s a big push to revive the 1965 Mass because most people who want to attend EF Mass want a pre-Vatican II Mass in Latin. If they want a Mass other than the 1962 version, they are more likely to want a pre-1955 version which would also be fully in Latin and which I think one FSSP group currently has some permissions to use.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I’d like them to translate everything but the hymns into vernacular.

I respectfully disagree. The TLM/EF should remain in Latin.

The Byzantine & Ukrainian Greek Catholic Churches have had the Divine Liturgy since my late mom was in high school (1940s-50s) and there are varied translations from both jurisdictions. I have DL translations from the 1940s, 1954, 1961, 1965, 1976, 1988, and 2004, which took out words based in Latin (e.g. condescended, expect).

Versus

Slavonic which was (and technically still is) our official liturgical language.

Example: Chelovikolubets = Philanthropos in Greek. It is variously translated as “Lover of Man” (strict translation), “Lover of Mankind” (UGCC version ) and “Lover of us all” (Byzantine Ruthenian Metropolia version from 2004 ).

I detest “inclusive language” because imo it linguistically, (not objectively) makes for an impersonal relationship with God. C.f. Gen. 4: "…and he named them Man… (I’m going by memory here).

The late Fr. John Hardon, S.J. (may his memory be eternal!) had an excellent article on WHY inclusive language should not be used.

The TLM should remain the way it is. And quite frankly, on the rare occasions I have attended the TLM, I find it more contemplative (esp Low Mass).

From the catacombs to the Middle Ages to now, RCs were able to follow the Mass even in Latin. I have 2 pre-VII missals which have the same Mass but the English translation is a little different in both.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

Example: Chelovikolubets = Philanthropos in Greek. It is variously translated as “Lover of Man” (strict translation), “Lover of Mankind” (UGCC version ) and “Lover of us all” (Byzantine Ruthenian Metropolia version from 2004 ).

Yikes! I actually understood that word! (Studied two years of Polish at college level, have a passive knowledge of very basic Russian — though my verbs are weak — and I can pretty much decipher any Slavic language.)

Everyone talks about doing the Ordinary Form of the Mass in Latin.

But…why not do the Extraordinary Form of the Mass in the vernacular?

That way, people could understand it without consulting a translation. Translations are legitimate, right? It’s OK to use a translation while attending the Latin Mass, right?

Now I’ve seen plenty of posts here on CAF to the effect that translating the Latin in the EF is somehow “not good”–that the Latin contains “something” that makes it “heavenly, not of this earth,” and advising people to just “listen and not try to translate.”

I don’t buy that. Sorry, Latin lovers. I like hearing stuff in my own beautiful language (English), and I read the translations when I attend the Latin Mass in our city, and I don’t feel that I am diluting anything. I like many of the prayers, and the differences between the EF and the OF, and I think that hearing the EF in my own language would be great, and I think it would attract a very large crowd.

So…is my suggestion a terrible faux pas forgiveable only because I am a convert?

Not in the least. I have always maintained that, if there were this burning, urgent need for simple layfolk actually to understand the words of the liturgy, just translate the Traditional Latin Mass into the vernacular.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I have always maintained that, if there were this burning, urgent need for simple layfolk actually to understand the words of the liturgy, just translate the Traditional Latin Mass into the vernacular.

NO, ne, nein, non, i nyet!

It’s one thing to have a Latin-English missal but to have the TLM entirely in English? Positively NOT.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I have always maintained that, if there were this burning, urgent need for simple layfolk actually to understand the words of the liturgy, just translate the Traditional Latin Mass into the vernacular.

NO, ne, nein, non, i nyet!

It’s one thing to have a Latin-English missal but to have the TLM entirely in English? Positively NOT.

I should have been more clear. I meant to have a vernacular TM as an option, not to move entirely to the vernacular and leave Latin behind. Are you saying that, in your view, there is something intrinsically disagreeable about a vernacular TM, and if so, what?

The OF can be celebrated in Latin, ad orientem, and I have assisted at the Latin OF many times.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

Are you saying that, in your view, there is something intrinsically disagreeable about a vernacular TM, and if so, what?

Once again: if you do that, it’s no longer “traditional” unless perhaps, like I said, you use the 1965 form, which is still partially in Latin. And there is a strong argument that a Mass form that was around for 4 years at most wasn’t around long enough to establish a “tradition.”

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

Are you saying that, in your view, there is something intrinsically disagreeable about a vernacular TM, and if so, what?

Once again: if you do that, it’s no longer “traditional” unless perhaps, like I said, you use the 1965 form, which is still partially in Latin. And there is a strong argument that a Mass form that was around for 4 years at most wasn’t around long enough to establish a “tradition.”

True enough, but it could be thought of as “faithful to tradition”.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

I should have been more clear. I meant to have a vernacular TM as an option, not to move entirely to the vernacular and leave Latin behind.

Remember the story about the camel’s nose in the tent? Moral: If you allow an exception to the rule, then the rule becomes the exception.

Are you saying that, in your view, there is something intrinsically disagreeable about a vernacular TM, and if so, what?

I don’t want to see the TLM end up like the DL. Earlier I posted the years of various DL translations from the 40s until 2004 (and from what I’ve heard there’s supposed to be another translation that was due this year but postponed due to the C19 crisis).

At this point, I wish we’d go back to Slavonic.

(Sorry, I had to vent.)

The TLM is fine the way it is imo.

 

[Fauken]

Remember the story about the camel’s nose in the tent? Moral: If you allow an exception to the rule, then the rule becomes the exception.

That seems to be the case with the OF, which is allowed to be celebrated in the vernacular. You are more likely to find a Mass celebrated entirely in the vernacular, hymns and all, than you are to find one with some Latin in it. We are Latin rite Catholics, and yet the vast majority of us are never taught the responses to the Mass in Latin.

 

[Peeps]

From the catacombs to the Middle Ages to now, RCs were able to follow the Mass even in Latin.

I mean this in a kind way.

This sentence makes me feel like a fool because I cannot follow the Latin Mass without an English guide. Without that, I have no clue about what is being said. I kind of know what is sort of maybe going on, especially when the congregation processes forward for Holy Communion. But other than that, I don’t get all the little gestures and movements and interplay between the altar servers and the priest.

So…what your sentence implies is that that everyone understands it…except Peeps.

And where does leave Peeps?

Maybe I should quit my job in the hospital microbiology lab?

Again, I’m trying to make this gentle and kind, and probably it is not coming across that way. But what I hear you saying in your sentence–is that…Peeps and her husband and others like them are…stupid.

I’m going to repeat something that I have posted on CAF several times–when my husband and I attended our first Mass at that parish down the road from us–an Ordinary Form of the Mass in English–we had NO CLUE what was happening and the only thing we were familiar with were the Lord’s Prayer and the Bible readings. EVERYTHING else was very very strange to us–we enjoyed it, and recognized that the people were worshipping the same God that we had known all our lives in our Protestant churches. But we didn’t know what was going on.

So please try to imagine how we feel in a Traditional Latin Mass. No, we are not stupid. We just were not raised in the traditional Christian churches, and there needs to be some learning on our part, and some teaching on the part of the Church.

Recently I bought a very well-written little book–A Beginner’s Guide to the Traditional Latin Mass by Derya Little. It decodes everything, and it’s wonderful! I recommend to others like me.

 

[Fauken]

But other than that, I don’t get all the little gestures and movements and interplay between the altar servers and the priest.

So…what your sentence implies is that that everyone understands it…except Peeps.

And where does leave Peeps?

You’re not supposed to understand every single gesture that happens at the altar, or rather, you don’t need to. That’s part of the experience. We do not know everything there is about God, and there are a great many mysteries of our lives and faith known only to Him. This is part of why there are so many: because you’re not supposed to be able to keep up. You’re in the dark with what precisely is going on, just like you are in life. But it’s okay we don’t know, because we know how it all ultimately ends, with God’s help and grace.

Does that make sense?

 

[27lw]

Hey everyone, there’s another option for English and traddie lovers - Anglican use.
Peeps do you know about that? It’s not very common though. AKA The Ordinariate

Ordinariate of the Chair of Saint Peter | Houston, Texas

 

[ThomasMT]

So…what your sentence implies is that that everyone understands it…except Peeps.

We are all learning. With enough attendance patterns emerge and the basics become accessible. We have a missal so it really doesnt take that much effort to follow along.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

This sentence makes me feel like a fool because I cannot follow the Latin Mass without an English guide.

First of all, I have and had NO intention of making you feel like a fool. I was talking in general terms over time.

Without that, I have no clue about what is being said.

Same here.

So…what your sentence implies is that that everyone understands it…except Peeps.

Absolutely not!

Maybe I should quit my job in the hospital microbiology lab?

No. You’re too important.

Again, I’m trying to make this gentle and kind, and probably it is not coming across that way. But what I hear you saying in your sentence–is that…Peeps and her husband and others like them are…stupid.

Absolutely NOT!!! Again, I was talking in general terms over time.

And as for being stupid, that’s my province. I acted like such an idiot at my first TLM.

So please try to imagine how we feel in a Traditional Latin Mass.

I do know how you feel, because I was in a similar situation myself.

No, we are not stupid.

Of course not!

Recently I bought a very well-written little book– A Beginner’s Guide to the Traditional Latin Mass by Derya Little. It decodes everything, and it’s wonderful! I recommend to others like me.

That’s great! I have the little red TLM booklet published by the CISED and 2 TLM missals. Now if I’d had your book at my first TLM I wouldn’t have acted like such an idiot the first time I attended it.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

HomeschoolDad:

I should have been more clear. I meant to have a vernacular TM as an option, not to move entirely to the vernacular and leave Latin behind.

Remember the story about the camel’s nose in the tent? Moral: If you allow an exception to the rule, then the rule becomes the exception.

Are you saying that, in your view, there is something intrinsically disagreeable about a vernacular TM, and if so, what?

I don’t want to see the TLM end up like the DL. Earlier I posted the years of various DL translations from the 40s until 2004 (and from what I’ve heard there’s supposed to be another translation that was due this year but postponed due to the C19 crisis).

At this point, I wish we’d go back to Slavonic.

(Sorry, I had to vent.)

The TLM is fine the way it is imo.

I tend to agree, I am just wondering if there could have been a better way of meeting whatever need there might have been, for a vernacular liturgy. Of course you would want it to be in literary, dignified language, being careful to avoid common usages that can change over time. The “English side” of the Latin-English missals (Lasance, Stedman, et al) seemed pretty good. I have one Sheed and Ward bilingual missal and it’s nice, but… it’s sort of weird. Kind of a jarring translation. IIRC it was used in tandem with the Knox Bible, which is very good too, but sui generis.

That is true, but it is entirely within the Church’s power of binding and loosing, to change her discipline and allow vernacular Masses. Keep in mind that for about twenty years, the basic message we got from the Church, and which was advanced by orthodox lay apostolates (Catholics United for the Faith et al), was something along the lines of “it is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and the positive will of God, that we shall now worship in a new way, and we will accept the vernacular as a great gift, as well as simplification of the rubrics and adoption of legitimate norms and options subject to the national bishops’ conferences — the traditional Mass may be allowed, under carefully delineated circumstances, as an indult, but the Church’s wish is for the new liturgy to be used, joyfully embraced, and made the norm for all the faithful”. In short, according to this narrative, the new liturgy is “the way things are supposed to be”, and we want you looking forward, not back. “Get with the program”, you could say.

Thankfully the Church now allows the faithful to adhere to either rite, as they see fit, and “when the bullet hit the bone”, Benedict had to admit that Quo primum was never abrogated.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

That’s great! I have the little red TLM booklet published by the CISED and 2 TLM missals. Now if I’d had your book at my first TLM I wouldn’t have acted like such an idiot the first time I attended it.

The only way you can “act like an idiot” at the TLM is if you don’t even attempt to join yourself with the Mass — even spiritually if that’s all you can do, and I would assure anyone, the first, second, or third time you ever assist at the TLM, you will be largely clueless as to “what’s going on”. Sitting there chattering like a magpie — and, sadly, I’ve heard and seen this — is also not the thing to do. When I see someone talking incessantly during Mass, whether OF or EF, the first thing I think, is that they are acting like they have some kind of psychological disorder — compulsive talking.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

The only way you can “act like an idiot” at the TLM is if you don’t even attempt to join yourself with the Mass — even spiritually if that’s all you can do, and I would assure anyone, the first, second, or third time you ever assist at the TLM, you will be largely clueless as to “what’s going on”.

Just to recap for you and @Peeps:

My first TLM was at a conference in late 1997. The lady in front me turned to me and exclaimed: “Oh sweetheart, you must have your head covered!” and promptly pinned a Kleenex on my head before I could say anything.

One of the fellows at the conference invited my friend and I to St. Jude’s (SSPX) outside of Philadelphia. We accepted and went to Low Mass at St. Jude’s on All Saints Day.

We sat in the first pew on the right side (Epistle side but in a Byzantine church it would be Our Lord’s side). Well, it really was a Low Mass because I couldn’t even hear the priest! I was leaning forward in the pew in order to hear him better and probably looked like an idiot to everyone else. The only time we heard him was when he said Dominus vobiscum. OK, now where are we? Somehow we made it through the Mass.

Later my friend later told me that the TLM was 4x as better than the Mass at his parish.

Today I can appreciate the TLM. I like it almost as much as the Divine Liturgy.