Visiting a Traditional Latin Mass

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Fauken said:
You’re not supposed to understand every single gesture that happens at the altar, or rather, you don’t need to. That’s part of the experience. We do not know everything there is about God, and there are a great many mysteries of our lives and faith known only to Him. This is part of why there are so many: because you’re not supposed to be able to keep up. You’re in the dark with what precisely is going on, just like you are in life. But it’s okay we don’t know, because we know how it all ultimately ends, with God’s help and grace.

Does that make sense?
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It’s a hard sell for someone born and raised Evangelical Protestant, where knowledge and understanding and study were held high. Also, it’s a hard sell for someone who works in a science field (both me and my husband–he’s a computer guy)–we NEED to understand what’s going on because life, death, and for my husband, continued employment, depend on getting the facts straight and doing the procedures correctly.

When people don’t understand something thoroughly, to the best of their ability–it’s easy to be led down a false path. Do you think this ever happens to Catholics who haven’t been well-catechized? I do–at the Evangelical Protestant church we attended in North Carolina, over half of the 500 members were EX-Catholics–most of them born and raised with the Traditional Latin Mass.

There are people, and perhaps you are one of them, who are “mystics” by nature–they would rather spend a retreat in silence than listening to a cadre of speakers, taking notes, completing the workbooks, and joining in the afterglow discussion with fellow retreatants. As you have probably figure out, I’m one of those types who can handle silence when necessary, but would rather hear and understand and participate.

Perhaps because I grew up playing the piano in church, I feel more comfortable knowing what’s going on, what’s going to happen. And in spite of that–I, too, know how it all ultimately ends, with God’s help and grace.

I am thankful that in their wisdom, the bishops who participated in the 2nd Vatican Council heard God’s voice and established the Ordinary Form of the Mass and allowed for the vernacular. I am also grateful that Pope Benedict XVI gave us the Motu that allows the continuation of the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. God has created us all different and it’s good to have a Mass that is a good fit for our individual needs.
 
Peeps, maybe I missed something, but since the OF Mass was pretty much invented for people just like you, and is much more widely available than the TLM, then why are you concerning yourself with the TLM?

TLM is for a certain group of Catholics who find it fruitful to worship in that manner. It is not going to be forced on you.

I like TLM from time to time (I don’t need it every single day) because it is how my mother and her parents and siblings all worshipped. I also was taught enough Latin in high school to reasonably follow what I need to follow (which is not every single prayer of the priest because half of what he says is not audible to those of us in the pews and i’m fine with that, I can read it off an Order of Mass which typically also has an English translation if I need it). Obviously none of these things apply to you, so you can just set the Latin Mass aside and rejoice that the Church made a more user-friendly Mass that you can attend.
 
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Peeps said:
It’s a hard sell for someone born and raised Evangelical Protestant, where knowledge and understanding and study were held high. Also, it’s a hard sell for someone who works in a science field (both me and my husband–he’s a computer guy)–we NEED to understand what’s going on because life, death, and for my husband, continued employment, depend on getting the facts straight and doing the procedures correctly.
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I was raised in a Baptist family and am a software developer and have a degree in electrical engineering. I can understand it can be a hard sell, but I still prefer the EF. There’s plenty for me to contemplate during Mass without knowing every single gesture.
Peeps said:
When people don’t understand something thoroughly, to the best of their ability–it’s easy to be led down a false path. Do you think this ever happens to Catholics who haven’t been well-catechized? I do–at the Evangelical Protestant church we attended in North Carolina, over half of the 500 members were EX-Catholics–most of them born and raised with the Traditional Latin Mass.
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Sure, that can be a problem, and I’ve also seen people over analyze things and be lead down a false path (for example, the 1962 Mass is invalid because of Quo Primium, Benevacantist arguments, etc.). It goes both ways.
 
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We get used in NO Masses to the idea that it’s all about US following and understanding the words.

But a different approach is needed at the Latin Mass. it is contemplative, it is visual. Don’t worry too much about following the ordinaries let alone the propers. Eventually it will come naturally.
 
Fauken said:
I was raised in a Baptist family and am a software developer and have a degree in electrical engineering. I can understand it can be a hard sell, but I still prefer the EF. There’s plenty for me to contemplate during Mass without knowing every single gesture.
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I’m not disagreeing or disputing those who prefer the EF of the Mass.

I just get worried when I hear or read people who claim that very soon, the Ordinary Form of the Mass will be gone and the TLM will be the the Mass for all people. I don’t think that will happen. I think that the Magisterium realizes that people like me and my husband abound and need to hear and understand the Mass in our own heart language.

And I think that the Lord knows that, too–in the Bible, He says "There was a great multitude…from every nation, from all tribes and people and languages standing before the Lamb… (Revelation 7:9). And also, “Faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of God.” (Romans 10:17).

Even though there are apostolates and missions and outreaches by the Catholic Church, it seems that that the main “teaching time” in the Church, at least in the U.S., is at Mass. Unlike Evangelical Protestant churches, Catholic parishes don’t generally offer “Christian Education” to their members and attendees–Bible studies, Sunday School, Midweek Bible study and prayer meetings, Cottage studies, etc. And although in recent years, several authors have written “popular” Catholic books (Scott and Kimberly Hahn come to mind), and there are websites like this one that contain lots of teaching–many Catholics still don’t “study” God’s Word and the practical applications of their faith other than when they are at Mass–and that is one really good reason why it’s wonderful to have the Mass in our own language. I realize that the Holy Spirit doesn’t need “language” to work in our souls and bring about holiness in our lives. But…practically speaking, many of us need to HEAR the words in our own language so that we can meditate on them and incorporate them into our daily lives.

Again, I would point out that a contemplative Mass is beautiful and uplifting for many Catholics–but there are many many Evangelical Protestants and other types of Protestants, older folks who left the Catholic Church during the time when the Latin Mass was the norm–it was not helping them to know Christ.

I have talked to quite a few older Catholics who tell me that they were planning to leave the Catholic Church when they turned 18 (legal adults in the U.S.) because of the Latin, and it was the vernacular Mass that kept them in the Church.

So again, we can be glad that Holy Mother Church gives us BOTH forms of the Holy Mass! This demonstrates the wisdom that God has imparted to our Holy Father and the Magisterium.
 
Peeps said:
I just get worried when I hear or read people who claim that very soon, the Ordinary Form of the Mass will be gone and the TLM will be the the Mass for all people. I don’t think that will happen.
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If you don’t think it will happen, why do you “get worried” about it?

As a practical matter, in my areas of the United States where there are lots of Catholics, there are literally dozens of Ordinary Form Masses I can choose from every Sunday just within a 10-15 mile radius of where I’m living, and hundreds of OF Masses available across the diocese. By contrast, there are perhaps 1 to 3 TLMs available on Sunday for the whole diocese, and in some cases I would need to drive 30 minutes to an hour to get to them. TLMs aren’t taking over the country any time soon.

Any sort of trend or shift towards all the Masses being TLMs in the United States is not likely to happen while either you or I am alive and walking the earth, unless maybe there’s some cataclysmic event that wipes out huge swaths of population or huge numbers of Catholics.

I don’t argue with the people who insist that all the Masses will soon be TLMs because 1) I personally don’t care if they are or not, a Mass is a Mass to me, and 2) it’s like arguing with people who insist the end of the world is coming in a couple months, you’re not going to change their mind so just let them have whatever their vision of the future is.

It’s also more possible that TLMs may become a more dominant form of Mass in countries where Mass-going has dwindled to a far greater degree than we see in USA, which desptie all its purported secularism still has a goodly number of people who actively practice.
 
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Peeps said:
But…why not do the Extraordinary Form of the Mass in the vernacular?
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I see your point, but I’m not sure that there would be much demand for such an option. I went to a diocesan EF once where the readings were done in English. You would think that would have made it easier to follow, but it really wasn’t. I follow along in my missal anyway. And for the ordinary, you know what they are saying when you hear it weekly, even if you don’t understand every word.

What I think is desperately needed in the Church is a more traditional OF. It’s already done this way in some parishes but should be done more often - a little Latin, Gregorian chant, ad orientem, use of communion rail, solid homilies that don’t shy away from hard topics, greater focus on confession (mentioned from the pulpit), etc. This will meet the needs of people who want a more traditional liturgy (mostly) in English. I’m willing to bet that many people seek out the TLM in an effort to find a more reverent way to worship, not because they want the Latin.
 
Thanks for that answer. Being new to Catholicism, I’ve been wondering why anyone would want to pray in a language they don’t understand. For example, myself.
 
27lw said:
Here’s yet another great post from the Liturgy Guy:
Did you know Jesus (and his whole culture) used a liturgical language that was not their everyday language?
7 Reasons for the Use of Latin in the Mass | liturgy guy

Also interesting to read:

Sacred language - Wikipedia
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There is a value in the EF, above and beyond the Latin language. It lifts the heart towards God, it’s clearly the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it reminds me I am a sinner and forgiveness is possible. I grew up with the TLM, trust me, lots of people had little idea what was going on when it was the routine, in Latin.

What people call the contemplative aspect really was daydreaming for many back then. When I visit the TLM today it’s a prepared, highly motivated special group not like the typical neighborhood Mass of 1960, rushing to get through to clear the parking lot for the next Mass.

I had four years of Latin, and I find myself distracted , hard to follow along. When the priest is reading the gospel in Latin, I’m not edified by the thought that this is the same language used in the catechombs, because they heard the gospel only once, in a language they understood.

I see no reason for the OF in Latin, but consider putting all but the hymns of the EF in vernacular, for those that want it. The old Vulgate has many cherished phrases, but the priest normally translates the Latin gospel and epistle now for the congregation. His sermon is based on the translation, not the Vulgate.
 
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commenter said:
There is a value in the EF, above and beyond the Latin language. It lifts the heart towards God, it’s clearly the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it reminds me I am a sinner and forgiveness is possible. I grew up with the TLM, trust me, lots of people had little idea what was going on when it was the routine, in Latin.

What people call the contemplative aspect really was daydreaming for many back then. When I visit the TLM today it’s a prepared, highly motivated special group not like the typical neighborhood Mass of 1960, rushing to get through to clear the parking lot for the next Mass.

I had four years of Latin, and I find myself distracted , hard to follow along. When the priest is reading the gospel in Latin, I’m not edified by the thought that this is the same
language used in the catacombs, because they heard the gospel only once, in a language they understood.

I see no reason for the OF in Latin, but consider putting all but the hymns of the EF in vernacular. The old Vulgate has many cherished phrases, but the priest normally translates the Latin gospel and epistle now for the congregation. His sermon is based on the translation, not the Vulgate.
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Good thing no one is ever distracted or daydreaming now. Yup, I guess the vernacular fixed that for everyone!
 
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Peeps said:
It’s a hard sell for someone born and raised Evangelical Protestant, where knowledge and understanding and study were held high. Also, it’s a hard sell for someone who works in a science field (both me and my husband–he’s a computer guy)–we NEED to understand what’s going on because life, death, and for my husband, continued employment, depend on getting the facts straight and doing the procedures correctly.
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Then you simply NEED to put in the effort and do the work. With all due respect, you seem to make it more complicated than necessary. I’m happy to shoot you some links for helpful guides if you would like.
 
ThomasMT said:
Then you simply NEED to put in the effort and do the work. With all due respect, you seem to make it more complicated than necessary. I’m happy to shoot you some links for helpful guides if you would like.
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Thank you, but I am very happy and fulfilled by the beautiful, liturgically-correct Ordinary Form of the Mass offered in my own dear language (American English) by the good, prayerful, hard-working priests in my parish, the parish that, through an excellent apologetics class taught by two university professors, led me and my husband to convert from Evangelical Protestantism to Catholicism that Jesus Christ Himself established on this earth.
 
Excellent, then you have no need to demand reform of the EF to suit personal preferences, as they are already being met 🙂
 
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ThomasMT said:
Excellent, then you have no need to demand reform of the EF to suit personal preferences, as they are already being met 🙂
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I am NOT demanding reform of the EF! Yikes! I apologize if I gave that impression to you. I think it would be good if the EF were offered in the vernacular, but I’m definitely not demanding it!! I just think it would be nice and practical, but I understand why the EF and Latin are “linked”, so to speak, and I also know that there are printed translations of the EF (I have one) for those who want to understand everything that’s being said and done at the EF.
 
Peeps said:
I think it would be good if the EF were offered in the vernacular
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It would only make sense to offer the EF in the vernacular if it was the Ordinary Form. In other words, if 1970 missal didn’t exist & after Vatican II they simply introduced a vernacular version of the 1962 or 1965 missal.

But it doesn’t make sense to offer the EF in the vernacular if the 1970 missal still exists. Both the 1970 missal and the Anglican Use (which has some similarities to both the EF and OF) handle the vernacular.
 
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That is pretty important to understand what is being said. But just as importantly is why it’s being said. When you dive deeper into understanding the Mass it truly does help to get the meaning and reasons behind a lot of what is being said and done. I try often to seek out and listen to or read Priests explain the parts of the Mass, why we and they say and do what we and they say and do. Gives it all deeper meaning for me.
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I have no problem with understanding both what is said, and why it is said. It’s a matter of priorities. Reading and studying the vernacular side of the missal is commendable. Over the years, I find I have learned much of the Latin by sheer osmosis (as well as a gift for languages in the first place). It is a very good use of one’s time and intellect, to study the Mass deeply and to understand it inside and out, not just the words, but the meaning of both the prayers and the rubrics. It’s hard to think of much better uses of that time and intellect.
 
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