Vocation problem

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FraLeones said:
i could not tell the order though… (i have no obedience to do so)…
thats all that i could say…
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I’m sorry, you went to try and join an Order of the Catholic Church that is a secret? Is it part of the Constitutions that you are bound to secrecy about the name of the group? I have to say my credulity is taking a bit of strain at this point.
 
Julia_Mae said:
I’m sorry, you went to try and join an Order of the Catholic Church that is a secret? Is it part of the Constitutions that you are bound to secrecy about the name of the group? I have to say my credulity is taking a bit of strain at this point.
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I agree. Unless this is another one of those “language” barrier misunderstandings, either there is something “fishy” about this group, or FreLeones is taking things too seriously to the point where I think this is beyond scrupulosity.
 
Julia_Mae said:
I’m sorry, you went to try and join an Order of the Catholic Church that is a secret? Is it part of the Constitutions that you are bound to secrecy about the name of the group? I have to say my credulity is taking a bit of strain at this point.
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Julia_Mae said:
He’s not allowed to tell us, he said.
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There is no such thing in either the Latin Church or any of the Eastern Churches, not even in the Orthodox and Anglican communities.

Once you leave the community, you are no longer bound to obey the rules and superiors of the community.

In addition, Canon Law says that religious communities, secular orders, societies of apostolic life, and secular institutes make public profession of vows or promises, whichever case applies. The Church receives them. How can the Church receive a promise or a vow from a community that is a secret?

Whether you’re in a religious order, congregation, secular order or society of apostolic life, at your profession there must be the following, besides you:

a. the major superior who receives the profession in the name of the community
b. an ordained minister (deacon, priest or bishop) who receives the profession in the name of the Church. He need not be a member of the community.
c. two witnesses

The profession is recorded, just like baptism and marriage. There are no secrets.

In countries and times when it is dangerous for religious to “out” themselves, such as those countries that are anti-Catholic or anti-cleric, the community may exist underground. But the profession still requires that the same people witness it and that it be recorded. Otherwise, how will you find your way around the Church when you come out of hiding?

It the poster is talking to us about his FORMER community, then I doubt that it’s underground. Common sense would dictate that you do not go on the internet and advertise. If it’s your former community, you’re no longer bond to that community by obedience.

I’m not going to push the OP for the name of the community; however, I warn people, any community that tells you not to reveal who they are raises red flags.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
There is no such thing in either the Latin Church or any of the Eastern Churches, not even in the Orthodox and Anglican communities.

Once you leave the community, you are no longer bound to obey the rules and superiors of the community.

In addition, Canon Law says that religious communities, secular orders, societies of apostolic life, and secular institutes make public profession of vows or promises, whichever case applies. The Church receives them. How can the Church receive a promise or a vow from a community that is a secret?

Whether you’re in a religious order, congregation, secular order or society of apostolic life, at your profession there must be the following, besides you:

a. the major superior who receives the profession in the name of the community
b. an ordained minister (deacon, priest or bishop) who receives the profession in the name of the Church. He need not be a member of the community.
c. two witnesses

The profession is recorded, just like baptism and marriage. There are no secrets.

In countries and times when it is dangerous for religious to “out” themselves, such as those countries that are anti-Catholic or anti-cleric, the community may exist underground. But the profession still requires that the same people witness it and that it be recorded. Otherwise, how will you find your way around the Church when you come out of hiding?

It the poster is talking to us about his FORMER community, then I doubt that it’s underground. Common sense would dictate that you do not go on the internet and advertise. If it’s your former community, you’re no longer bond to that community by obedience.

I’m not going to push the OP for the name of the community; however, I warn people, any community that tells you not to reveal who they are raises red flags.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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NO its not a secret its just that i dont like anymore to say because they might be misunderstood for me misunderstanding them
 
Tagalog… and i have a hard time in saying what i should in english
 
FraLeones said:
Tagalog… and i have a hard time in saying what i should in english
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I was hoping it was one of the European languages. Sorry, I can’t help you translate. I wish i could. 😦

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
This doesn’t sound right at all. And that schedule may be “tough” but it’s not “admirable.” Legit religious orders don’t burn through people like that schedule will. That’s not the point of religion or of religious life.

The Philippine Islands have a lot of religious movements, some cultic movements and a lot of folk religion which people easily confuse with the real thing, sort of like our Santeria on this continent. I wonder what this organization that the OP is describing really is.

Catholicism embedded in different cultures looks far different, and it can take on the folk manifestations of the local people, just like it does here, and in Mexico, in China, in Spain and in the Congo. We’re used to ours, the ones that look “European”; they’re used to theirs. These local manifestations can stray from orthodox Catholicism rather easily and do from time to time.

Also I wonder about being allowed to “join” a religious order at the age of 16. And the OP said he joined the “third order” of this group, but in less than a year? He’s only 17? There’s something wrong with the timeline.
 
iloveangels said:
This doesn’t sound right at all. And that schedule may be “tough” but it’s not “admirable.” Legit religious orders don’t burn through people like that schedule will. That’s not the point of religion or of religious life.

The Philippine Islands have a lot of religious movements, some cultic movements and a lot of folk religion which people easily confuse with the real thing, sort of like our Santeria on this continent. I wonder what this organization that the OP is describing really is.

Catholicism embedded in different cultures looks far different, and it can take on the folk manifestations of the local people, just like it does here, and in Mexico, in China, in Spain and in the Congo. We’re used to ours, the ones that look “European”; they’re used to theirs. These local manifestations can stray from orthodox Catholicism rather easily and do from time to time.

Also I wonder about being allowed to “join” a religious order at the age of 16. And the OP said he joined the “third order” of this group, but in less than a year? He’s only 17? There’s something wrong with the timeline.
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I found that the schedule does not match that of the most strict communities, which would be the monastic communities. That’s why I offered the Trappists and the Sons of the Redeemer.

Even the lack of sleep and the way that the meals are distributed is not healthy. Asceticism does not mean that you kill the body. As men grow older, their bodies can’t take that kind of abuse. Religious communities are very conscious of their duty to the elderly brethren.

The age thing is not such a problem. Canon Law says that you can join a religious community at age 16, provided that it’s the age of majority in your country or that your parents sign a consent. However, you cannot make perpetual vows until you have reached at least age 23. Which is about right, because the formation of a religious is from 6 to 10 years.

Also, the title “Fra” is usually used by Friars. It comes from the Latin, Frater. Monks are not friars. They would not use the title Fra. Someone asked about Opus Dei, but they’re not religious. They would not use any title: Friar, Frater, Brother, or Dom, which is common among the Benedictine family.

The young man needs a translator.

Fraternally,

Br.JR, OSF 🙂
 
FraLeones said:
Tagalog… and i have a hard time in saying what i should in english
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Hi FraLeones:

I have been reading this thread, and I find your community interesting. You mentioned to Br. JR you speak Tagalog… Maybe I can help. I am a Filipino myself. What is it you want to say? Baka makatulong ako…:rolleyes:

albertziggy:rolleyes:
 
albertziggy said:
Hi FraLeones:

I have been reading this thread, and I find your community interesting. You mentioned to Br. JR you speak Tagalog… Maybe I can help. I am a Filipino myself. What is it you want to say? Baka makatulong ako…:rolleyes:

albertziggy:rolleyes:
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YESS!

Ziggy, can I give you a hug? :hug1:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
JReducation said:
YESS!

Ziggy, can I give you a hug? :hug1:

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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By all means sir:D.

It is interesting to note that he even mentioned a third order. I am curious as to where in the Philippines the group is based. What the habit looks like, etc. I wonder if it is a Franciscan group. I know of one here that is quite strict…

:rolleyes:
 
albertziggy said:
By all means sir:D.

It is interesting to note that he even mentioned a third order. I am curious as to where in the Philippines the group is based. What the habit looks like, etc. I wonder if it is a Franciscan group. I know of one here that is quite strict…

:rolleyes:
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What aroused my curiosity is that schedule.

The meals and the sleep time are not healthy. Conventual schedules are very healthy. There is not much sleep time in that schedule

Also, the liturgy is not in the right order. You rarely celebrate that day’s mass at night. Sometimes you celebrate it in the evening,with Vespers built into it.

I don’t know if I’m misunderstanding him. It sounds as if he’s saying that he cannot say the name of the community, because he does not have permission. But if he’s no longer a member, the community’s rules no longer apply to him.

Someone suggested Opus Dei. As I already said, Opus Dei is a secular organization. Fra is for Frater. That’s common title for religious.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF:)

But I don’t think that he understands my questions.
 
JReducation said:
What aroused my curiosity is that schedule.

The meals and the sleep time are not healthy. Conventual schedules are very healthy. There is not much sleep time in that schedule

Also, the liturgy is not in the right order. You rarely celebrate that day’s mass at night. Sometimes you celebrate it in the evening,with Vespers built into it.

I don’t know if I’m misunderstanding him. It sounds as if he’s saying that he cannot say the name of the community, because he does not have permission. But if he’s no longer a member, the community’s rules no longer apply to him.

Someone suggested Opus Dei. As I already said, Opus Dei is a secular organization. Fra is for Frater. That’s common title for religious.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF:)

But I don’t think that he understands my questions.
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This is especially true if he was sixteen. Teenagers such as myself need eight and a half hours of sleep. Period. There is no ifs or buts about it. You wouldn’t even be able to wake me up the second day because I would be so tired, and that is no exaggeration. I can’t imagine what it would do to an older Religious with health problems. I am not saying he is lying. I’m simply saying his being able to wake up after a week is nothing short of miraculous.
 
ATeutonicKnight said:
This is especially true if he was sixteen. Teenagers such as myself need eight and a half hours of sleep. Period. There is no ifs or buts about it. You wouldn’t even be able to wake me up the second day because I would be so tired, and that is no exaggeration. I can’t imagine what it would do to an older Religious with health problems. I am not saying he is lying. I’m simply saying his being able to wake up after a week is nothing short of miraculous.
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You would be surprised to know that when communities make up their horarium (schedule) the first people we think of are not the younger members, but the older members. It’s part of being brothers to each other. We try to create schedules that allow the older members to participate in community life without putting a burden on their health. Many older religious are a little slow. They fall asleep in the middle of a conversation. They may not sleep to well at night as is common for older people. They have diabetes, hypertension, arthritis and other conditions that come with age.

Things like rest and meals at the appropriate times are very important unless we want to burn them out to the point that they can no longer get out of bed. We don’t want that for our older brothers. In my community the constitution says that no brother shall ever retire. The reason for that is that retirement usually means that you’re separated from the daily activities that keep you alive.

What we do is we play with the schedule to allow an older brother to be as active as possible for him and to get the proper rest, nutrition and psychological stimulation that an older person needs. The most important stimulation for an older brother is love. When we sit with them and tell them of the silly things that happened during the day, it lights up their eyes. It’s a beautiful sight to see. I love their grin and I especially love it when they go into their song and dance number, "In my day . . . . "

This means that they are alive. They still have spunk enough to fight. We treasure that as the greatest gift of fraternal living, the gift of age.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
Re older brothers. Off the overall topic and please forgive. I am reading “From Heaven to Mirth” by Father Martin SJ - excellent book. He recounts that a superior was visiting the infirmary where quite a few priests were on their deathbed, or close to it. The superior commented that so many in the community were elderly and frail and that there were now so few beds in the infirmary.
One dying priest replied “Father, we are dying as quickly as we can” I burst out laughing on the bus home.
I was wondering if FraLeone is actually just a user name. I have not read all the posts in this thread but it did cross my mind that perhaps it was just a name he adopted as his user name - unless of course if one adopts “Brother …”, “Sister…” etc. etc. it has to be a person in religious life/priesthood only using such titles and is accepted on CA as being a rightful and legimate prefix.
 
JReducation said:
You would be surprised to know that when communities make up their horarium (schedule) the first people we think of are not the younger members, but the older members. It’s part of being brothers to each other. We try to create schedules that allow the older members to participate in community life without putting a burden on their health. Many older religious are a little slow. They fall asleep in the middle of a conversation. They may not sleep to well at night as is common for older people. They have diabetes, hypertension, arthritis and other conditions that come with age.

Things like rest and meals at the appropriate times are very important unless we want to burn them out to the point that they can no longer get out of bed. We don’t want that for our older brothers. In my community the constitution says that no brother shall ever retire. The reason for that is that retirement usually means that you’re separated from the daily activities that keep you alive.

What we do is we play with the schedule to allow an older brother to be as active as possible for him and to get the proper rest, nutrition and psychological stimulation that an older person needs. The most important stimulation for an older brother is love. When we sit with them and tell them of the silly things that happened during the day, it lights up their eyes. It’s a beautiful sight to see. I love their grin and I especially love it when they go into their song and dance number, "In my day . . . . "

This means that they are alive. They still have spunk enough to fight. We treasure that as the greatest gift of fraternal living, the gift of age.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
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This doesn’t surprise me at all. Religious orders are like extended families, and I would expect that the Franciscan orders would be the most like this, since part of their charism is brotherhood. Not surprising at all and completely in keeping with the spirit and the letter of Christianity.

In Christianity, people are important no matter what their age is–even the very old and the very young. This was one of the huge departures from Roman life among the early Christians; it’s still a huge departure from the secularized culture that we live in. It’s one of the things about the abortion struggle that the culture doesn’t get; it’s also one of the things about euthanasia of the old that the culture doesn’t get. People are not throwaways, even if their personal power is diminished. The religious orders, and particularly the Franciscans, give elegant testimony to this basic principle of Christian practice.

I doubt even the marines have a schedule like the one FraLeones gave. That’s why it makes me wonder what’s going on there.
 
iloveangels said:
This doesn’t surprise me at all. Religious orders are like extended families, and I would expect that the Franciscan orders would be the most like this, since part of their charism is brotherhood. Not surprising at all and completely in keeping with the spirit and the letter of Christianity.

In Christianity, people are important no matter what their age is–even the very old and the very young. This was one of the huge departures from Roman life among the early Christians; it’s still a huge departure from the secularized culture that we live in. It’s one of the things about the abortion struggle that the culture doesn’t get; it’s also one of the things about euthanasia of the old that the culture doesn’t get. People are not throwaways, even if their personal power is diminished. The religious orders, and particularly the Franciscans, give elegant testimony to this basic principle of Christian practice.

I doubt even the marines have a schedule like the one FraLeones gave. That’s why it makes me wonder what’s going on there.
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In our constitution there is a statute that says:

“The Franciscans of Life shall esteem, venerate and protect the elderly. Let us not forget that the Chosen people were born from an elderly Abraham and Sarah. Nor should we forget that “no greater man was born of woman than John the Baptist”. Elizabeth and Zachariah were also elderly. God so loved the elderly that he did not ignore them. Instead, he included them as key players in his plan of salvation. Let the young brothers protect and care for every elderly man that he may meet and let him acknowledge that the elderly are God’s gift to the young.”

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF 🙂
 
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