Vocation problem

[FraLeones]

i entered a religious order when i was sixteen and this is my story

i am not so poor but not so rich. I could say i belong to a family who has some wealth. I graduated at high school at 16 with high grades, belong to the top students and received scholarship for college with 100% discount and to be sent money every month. I had many opportunities to grasp, has sure job and many more.

though not to what i wanted, i heard my Jesus calls me to enter that order. So i entered at 16. my parents dont want it. I turned down all the opportunities, escaped my parents and entered the order. My parents abandoned me, never had visits and no one supported me financially and physically.

inside i was always humiliated, laughed at, given the worst chores, obedience, deprived of many things and always mistreated. I offered everything to Him. and persevered. After i finished my postulancy, our superior said " we will send you home."

i didnt understand, instead i became a third order, i was so humiliated. i felt so down. every people i ask for help laugh at me and tell me im a fool for turning down every thing just to receive mistreatments and be abandoned.

now i feel confused in my vocation.

Jesus told me my vocation is to love and be a victim but i could no longer understand His will and could no longer hold on in these pains.

now im already seventeen and was a third order member of that order who is often judged as someone who is so bad to deserve to be sent home

please help me. i need prayers the most

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

i entered a religious order when i was sixteen and this is my story

i am not so poor but not so rich. I could say i belong to a family who has some wealth. I graduated at high school at 16 with high grades, belong to the top students and received scholarship for college with 100% discount and to be sent money every month. I had many opportunities to grasp, has sure job and many more.

though not to what i wanted, i heard my Jesus calls me to enter that order. So i entered at 16. my parents dont want it. I turned down all the opportunities, escaped my parents and entered the order. My parents abandoned me, never had visits and no one supported me financially and physically.

inside i was always humiliated, laughed at, given the worst chores, obedience, deprived of many things and always mistreated. I offered everything to Him. and persevered. After i finished my postulancy, our superior said " we will send you home."

i didnt understand, instead i became a third order, i was so humiliated. i felt so down. every people i ask for help laugh at me and tell me im a fool for turning down every thing just to receive mistreatments and be abandoned.

now i feel confused in my vocation.

Jesus told me my vocation is to love and be a victim but i could no longer understand His will and could no longer hold on in these pains.

now im already seventeen and was a third order member of that order who is often judged as someone who is so bad to deserve to be sent home

please help me. i need prayers the most

I will offer you many prayers. Now, I can’t tell if you’re a man or woman, but I do recommend one Order if you’re either one. They are the Franciscan Brothers Minor, or Franciscan Sisters Minor. If I read correctly, they will take you at age seventeen. Even more, you don’t even need a high school diploma. Not that that is a problem, but it is to assure you that higher education is not required of you. They are very welcoming, loving, and they are one of the most Traditional Communities in the world right now. Their site can be found here: franciscanbrothersminor.com/FBM/Home_1.html If you messaged Father David Mary or perhaps contacted the Sisters, I’m sure they would accept you and would treat you much better. The Community you were with does not sound all that great. These are holy men and women and are just about the nicest people in the world. I cannot recommend them enough.

I hope you find a way to start speaking with your family again. When one is cut away from their family because his/her family cannot understand, it is a very tough thing. But know that Jesus will console you. The next time you pray, pour your heart out to him! Tell Him your troubles and concerns, and ask him what His will is! He will console you and show you what He asks of you. In the end, once you have found your Vocation, you will be happy and will not have wanted your life to be any other way.

 

[DexUK]

I am sorry that you should feel so badly treated.

One of the things you probably need to learn if you want to release yourself from this feeling is to abandon yourself to the Will of God and the prudential judgement of the people who had authority over you in the Order you joined.

It could be that they perceived that you are not yet ready for the life of a Religious. They may have thought that you need to do some more growing up, or that you needed to learn more humility. Or, indeed, they could have been very bad people. It’s not possible for me to tell you one way or the other.

What I can tell you is that with prayer you can come to acceptance of the situation you are in now. Trust in God. Allow the quiet movement of the Holy Spirit to whisper peace to you in your heart.

Perhaps your vocation in life isn’t quite what you thought it is or perhaps you need to take a period of time for reflection and then maybe find another order more suited to the person that you are.

In any case, you’re only 17. You have a lifetime ahead of you yet. This isn’t the end of the road for you. In fact your options have barely even begun to become apparent yet.

Pray to St Francis for him to intercede for your peace and guidance. And never lose hope - since ALL our hope is in the Lord.

God bless you.

 

[FraLeones]

thank you people…

i am a man and i understand all of you. i will also pray for you and mention you to Jesus,

please help me too in discerning,

im pretty much contacting my family and they are about to accept everything…

i dont know what i did which is wrong that where ever i go, i am mistreated,

i just keep silent, offer it to the Lord and love my persecutors.

im about to be in despair

 

[FraLeones]

im also a traditional catholic help me discern in a order. i am mostly inclined in monastic life.

 

[FraLeones]

I don’t understand…why did/do they treat you so badly?

i really dont understand thats why i didnt mention them any more

they always criticize my physical appearance, my mistakes weaknesses and always make me the least

 

[FraLeones]

I don’t understand…why did/do they treat you so badly?

i once told my superior

me: i aspire to be a saint
him: you cant. your weak
me: yes i am, i will be saint
him: no, you cant even enter heaven

i felt so down

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

i once told my superior

me: i aspire to be a saint
him: you cant. your weak
me: yes i am, i will be saint
him: no, you cant even enter heaven

i felt so down

I’m sorry to hear this. At first, I thought this was regular behavior. During postulancy, Orders point out your weaknesses to help humble yourself. However, this goes beyond humbling, I’m afraid. If what you’ve said is true, than this Order needs to be taken care of by the Bishop. I would recommend writing him a letter stating that you just left, and explain to him all that happened in there honestly, and without resentment for these people. Write what happened, not what your feelings of anger and hurt want to say happened.

If you feel inclined to Monastic life, I would greatly recommend the Benedictine Monks at Tulsa, Oklahoma. They are a great Community and I would recommend them to anyone discerning Monastic life. Others I would recommend are the ones located at snowmass.org, and carmelitemonks.org. These two are great if you want to really live a life of contemplation and prayer. The Carmelites are more strict, while the Trappist Benedictines at Snow Mass are a little more lenient, letting you keep in contact with family and friends, and allowing them to visit you one week a year. The most lenient of this list are the ones in Tulsa. They have tons of weekly visitors, and they give them advice, as well as provide the Sacraments for them. However, despite their open doors to the laypeople, they pray many hours every day, and do live in silence at times throughout the day, such as during meals and after compline. Although I feel more confident about the Franciscan Brothers Minor, I’m hopefully going to visit this group this summer. If you call their phone at their website I’m sure Brother will give you all the information you must know. Until then, keep praying, and keep from despair. As Saint Padre Pio once said: “When you pray, pray with a smile. Our Lord is the Lord of joy! Do not bore him with sadness.” That was off the movie, but he probably said it.

 

[DexUK]

I could not agree more strongly with what those above have said.

While you might think everyone in a monastery would be good and holy, it’s not always the case. A very good friend of mine who’s a priest started his vocation in a monastery and had to leave because he and the Abbot simply couldn’t get along. He had already been ordained by then, and so it was that he eventually became my parish priest. He moved on a couple of years ago to another parish, but I’m honoured that he still keeps me as a friend despite all his other commitments.

Please don’t be discouraged by such an awful comment by your superior. That is a horrible thing to say to anyone, not least someone who’s aspiring to be a saint (as we all should, if we’re honest, since to be a saint means to be in Heaven interceding on behalf of others, which in my opinion would be a joyous service to give to people and to God).

Your superior was wrong to say such a thing to you.

I hope you find somewhere better for you. In the meantime do not lose hope and don’t despair. Pray, go to Mass, take comfort in the Lord… As Saint Julian of Norwich said: “All will be well, and all will be well, and all manner of things shall be well”.

 

[FraLeones]

I’m so sorry to hear this, their words must have totally broken your heart.
The sad truth is, there are insensitive people everyone, and often where you least expect it. We often trust that certain vocations, like this one, would only have kind and loving people involved…but people are people and they all fight their own flaws and personal weaknesses and you can find this sort of hurtful behavior many places–even in a religious order.
(The good news is, the opposite is true, too; you can find incredibly loving people in places you’d never expect them to be. When that happens, it is so life and love affirming).
It’s difficult when people like this are in a position of “power” because they have the ability to hurt more people, and those who are vulnerable to them.

Please do not take their harsh words seriously or personally, and surround yourself with more positive people who are not going to beat you down like this. Like Teutonic K says, find a better group! Start afresh somewhere else!

Thank you for all your advices…

that incident happened when i was along with about 20 other postulants… every one laughed at me at that time … though it is painful… i understand now that Jesus wants me to smile in the midst of all these things…

i have 5 friends in postulancy who didnt do the same way to me (we are 60) one even said:
"i might not persevered and finish postulancy if they are doing to me what they are doing to you "

that made me think that i was treated differently. when i said that i was hurt they scolded me

thank you for all of you and i pray for you to my sweet Jesus. (even the way i call my Lord they mimic and make fun of me, ridicule my prayers and others )

for now i no longer desire to enter any order

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Thank you for all your advices…

that incident happened when i was along with about 20 other postulants… every one laughed at me at that time … though it is painful… i understand now that Jesus wants me to smile in the midst of all these things…

i have 5 friends in postulancy who didnt do the same way to me (we are 60) one even said:
"i might not persevered and finish postulancy if they are doing to me what they are doing to you "

that made me think that i was treated differently. when i said that i was hurt they scolded me

thank you for all of you and i pray for you to my sweet Jesus. (even the way i call my Lord they mimic and make fun of me, ridicule my prayers and others )

for now i no longer desire to enter any order

I can understand your pain, but do not become resentful of Religious Orders. Most Religious Orders are filled with great, fun-filled, hilarious and kind people. I’ve met both male and female Religious, and none of them acted the way yours did. I can understand wanting to think things over first, but please do be open to Religious Life.

 

[trebiasgreg]

Though I am not in a religious community, I think, they could be testing your humility by discouraging you to continue, however, if you are really called to a religious life and want to become a saint, just follow Christ who is obedient to death. Persevere to the end, show them you really want to be like Christ ready to empty yourself for others, to be poor in spirit, full of humility, happy to be corrected and dislike praises. I believe you are doing well, just continue your call and pray always for yourself and all of us.

 

[Marauder]

You may want to look at the example of St. Joseph Cupertino. He is someone who probably today wouldn’t make it through the admission process for most religious Orders, yet he became a well respected Saint. Another good example was the Cure de Ares.

Both were people that experienced ridicule and roadblocks during their journey to enter either Religious life or the priesthood.

 

[Marauder]

Ooops meant Curé d’Ars or St. John Vianney. My spelling of French cities stinks

 

[FraLeones]

thank you for all of you…

i will always pray for all of you

we will all be saints

 

[DexUK]

Well, not being especially holy in all sorts of ways, I don’t know if I will be saint… but I’ll certainly give it a try

 

[JReducation]

If what you’ve said is true, than **this Order needs to be taken care of by the Bishop. I would recommend writing him a letter **stating that you just left, and explain to him all that happened in there honestly, and without resentment for these people. Write what happened, not what your feelings of anger and hurt want to say happened.

Please stop giving people this advice. It’s very bad advice. It will only frustrate the person when he gets no response from the bishop or gets a letter back saying, “Sorry, but I have no authority over religious.”

Bishops are not the Ordinaries for religious. Religious men have their own Ordinaries. It’s always the major superior, either the provincial superior or the general superior.

Women religious have no Ordinary. They are self governing. They do not answer to any bishop or anyone except the Holy Father.

Monks are autonomous. They answer only to the abbot. The abbot is autonomous. He has no superior. His voice is the voice of Christ in the community. He can never be removed unless he commits a canonical crime. Only the Holy Father can do that, after a trial. That’s why monks who do not get along with the abbot have to leave… The abbot takes precedence over the monks. The abbey depends on him, not he on the abbey. An abbot is to an abbey what a bishop is to a diocese. Without a bishop, you have no Church. Without an abbot, you have no abbey. The only authority over either an abbot or a bishop is the Holy Father.

In the case of an order, the only authority over a formation director is his major superior. However, formation directors do not unilaterally dismiss someone. There is a scrutinium. The members of the formation team vote. The vote is communicated to the major superior. If the vote is to dismiss, the major superior must approve the dismissal.

In an abbey, the vote is communicated to the abbot who approves the dismissal.

As you can see, bishops have nothing to do with this and they are not allowed to get involved. The Council of Trent ruled that laity and bishops may never have an opinion or a voice in the internal affairs of religious houses. Bishops may not even set foot inside a religious house without the permission of the major superior or the abbot.

The bishop’s only connection with religious is with those who work for him. His authority is limited to that which relates to the work that they do for him. A religious who works at a diocesan parish or diocesan high school has to follow diocesan policies for the parish or the high school. What happens inside the religious house does not fall under the authority of the bishop.

Such letters put the bishop on the spot and frustrate the sender. The best that a bishop can do is forward the letter to the major superior. The individual can write the major superior himself. Again, do not advise people to write bishops complaining about religious. It frustrates the writer to find out that the bishop has no authority over religious. His authority is over diocesan clergy, people who work for him and the laity.

Put it this way, according to Canon Law, a parent cannot summarily kick his child out of his home. Such an act would violate justice. However, a religious community can dismiss anyone who is not in perpetual vows without questions being asked by the Church. The best way to approach a dismissal is to ask the superior for a clarification as to why one was dismissed. Most superiors are more than happy to explain their reasons.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Julia_Mae]

Please stop giving people this advice. It’s very bad advice. It will only frustrate the person when he gets no response from the bishop or gets a letter back saying, “Sorry, but I have no authority over religious.”

Welcome back, Brother.

 

[ATeutonicKnight]

Please stop giving people this advice. It’s very bad advice. It will only frustrate the person when he gets no response from the bishop or gets a letter back saying, “Sorry, but I have no authority over religious.”

Bishops are not the Ordinaries for religious. Religious men have their own Ordinaries. It’s always the major superior, either the provincial superior or the general superior.

Women religious have no Ordinary. They are self governing. They do not answer to any bishop or anyone except the Holy Father.

Monks are autonomous. They answer only to the abbot. The abbot is autonomous. He has no superior. His voice is the voice of Christ in the community. He can never be removed unless he commits a canonical crime. Only the Holy Father can do that, after a trial. That’s why monks who do not get along with the abbot have to leave… The abbot takes precedence over the monks. The abbey depends on him, not he on the abbey. An abbot is to an abbey what a bishop is to a diocese. Without a bishop, you have no Church. Without an abbot, you have no abbey. The only authority over either an abbot or a bishop is the Holy Father.

In the case of an order, the only authority over a formation director is his major superior. However, formation directors do not unilaterally dismiss someone. There is a scrutinium. The members of the formation team vote. The vote is communicated to the major superior. If the vote is to dismiss, the major superior must approve the dismissal.

In an abbey, the vote is communicated to the abbot who approves the dismissal.

As you can see, bishops have nothing to do with this and they are not allowed to get involved. The Council of Trent ruled that laity and bishops may never have an opinion or a voice in the internal affairs of religious houses. Bishops may not even set foot inside a religious house without the permission of the major superior or the abbot.

The bishop’s only connection with religious is with those who work for him. His authority is limited to that which relates to the work that they do for him. A religious who works at a diocesan parish or diocesan high school has to follow diocesan policies for the parish or the high school. What happens inside the religious house does not fall under the authority of the bishop.

Such letters put the bishop on the spot and frustrate the sender. The best that a bishop can do is forward the letter to the major superior. The individual can write the major superior himself. Again, do not advise people to write bishops complaining about religious. It frustrates the writer to find out that the bishop has no authority over religious. His authority is over diocesan clergy, people who work for him and the laity.

Put it this way, according to Canon Law, a parent cannot summarily kick his child out of his home. Such an act would violate justice. However, a religious community can dismiss anyone who is not in perpetual vows without questions being asked by the Church. The best way to approach a dismissal is to ask the superior for a clarification as to why one was dismissed. Most superiors are more than happy to explain their reasons.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

But doesn’t the Bishop have a say if scandal and abuse are happening within an Order that he let in his Diocese? Where are you supposed to go if sexual abuse is a problem? I am all for rights within a Community, but abuse is abuse, and someone needs to take care of it. Obviously, the Abbot will not be of help in this situation, as he is the problem, not the solution.

 

[JReducation]

But doesn’t the Bishop have a say if scandal and abuse are happening within an Order that he let in his Diocese? Where are you supposed to go if sexual abuse is a problem? I am all for rights within a Community, but abuse is abuse, and someone needs to take care of it. Obviously, the Abbot will not be of help in this situation, as he is the problem, not the solution.

No. He has to pass the matter on to the major superior to be handled by him or her. Every superior has a superior. The bishop must follow the chain of command. When it comes to religious, he’s not in the chain of command. This is called the Right of Exemption. The Council of Trent ruled that bishops and laity may never intervene or opine over the internal affairs of religious. They may not discipline religious. They may not control their finances. They may not direct their actions.

The Council also ruled that the bishop has the obligation to protect the religious from the laity. The laity has the obligation to finance the apostolic work of the religious as it is the work of the Church. That is the extent of the legal relationship between religious and the rest of the Church.

The major superior of an order and the abbot of an abbey answer only to the Holy Father. This is called Pontifical Right, meaning that the Pontiff reserves the right to govern them to himself. If the major superior or the abbot is the problem, the Church has set up the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life who acts in the name of the Holy Father, to a limited extent.

I’ll give you three different examples.

NOTRE DAME: The bishops of the US could do nothing to stop the invitation of President Obama. They could only protest, but they could not interfere. Eventually, Rome responded with a very neutral statement and that was the end of that. Notre Dame belongs to an exempt religious congregation.

FRANCISCAN UNIVERSITY: Students and faculty went to the bishop to complain because the university would not implement the Tridentine Mass. The bishop offered to provide the EF at a local parish, because he had no authority over the Franciscans. They own the university, not the diocese. The Franciscans are exempt religious. SP does not apply to them. The superior can implement it or not. Eventually, the people concerned had to negotiate directly with the major superior and the bishop could not be part of the negotiation.

LEGION OF CHRIST: Fr. Marcel did horrific things to these people. No bishop could intervene. The case had to be brought up to the Holy Father. It was the Holy Father who removed Fr. Marcel from office. Unfortunately, the Legionaries took too long before bringing their problem to the attention of the Holy Father. That’s not the Holy Father’s fault. That was an internal weakness.

A religious community must request the bishop’s permission to open a house in his diocese. The bishop can grant the permission or deny it. The bishop can suspend the faculties of any religious who is a confessor. The superior can override that suspension by granting faculties to the man to hear confessions in his own house.

The bishop cannot ask them to leave his diocese. That would be suppression. Bishops have no authority to suppress religious orders or secular orders either.

As you can see, the bishop governs his diocese. Those incardinated into his diocese only include the diocesan clergy and the laity. Religious are not incardinated into any diocese where they live. They are incardinated into their religious community. The bishop has more authority over you than over the religious in his diocese.

If the major superior is the problem, it must go to the Sacred Congregation in Rome. In many large dioceses there is a Vicar for Religious. This is a religious who serves as the representative between the bishop and the religious. Complaints can go to him or her and he or she then forward the to the right person.

I have never understood why people believe that bishops can solve every problem in a diocese when it concerns religious or clergy. The laws are very clear, The Councils are very clear and the constitutions of the religious community are very clear. People just have to pick them up and read them.

In this case, the issue is not abuse. The issue is dismissal. Whatever the formation director may have said to the postulant was rude and inappropriate. But the formation director did not dismiss the postulant. He does not have that authority. He only communicates the decision. the dismissal is decided by the major superior, after there is a vote within the community where the postulant lives. The major superior is not bound by that vote. It is only consultative. If he goes with it, it’s because something caused him concern.

We must also remember, no one has the right to belong to a religious community except those who have made perpetual vows. Christ calls to the religious life through the major superior. Sometimes, we may believe that he’s calling us to a particular community only to be dismissed. Eventually, we are admitted to a second or third community, because that’s where Christ wanted us. We have great saints who traveled through several communities before finding their place.

In the case of sexual abuse, if the abuse takes place in a diocesan school, parish or other diocesan institution, that’s a violation of diocesan policy. The bishop can fire, suspend and even call the authorities; but he must still inform the superior. If it takes place inside the religious house, it must go to the proper authority. The bishop forwards the complaint to the superior. The bishop can only suspend the person from his duties related to the diocese, not duties related to the work of the community.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF