Vocations & Girl-Altar Boys

[Jared123]

Well, on a few matters, they would disagree with the Pope, as would I, and my dad does not attend Mass on a regular basis, but that is not my business, or this forum’s, really.

Answer this one question: You agree that the boys who refuse to serve need guidance. Should the girls be removed from their ministry because someone else has a maturity problem?

Pius X let me get this right you disagee with the Pope on certain matters, but you are thinking about becoming a priest. You might want to put some more thought into this one.

I don’t think a girl should be removed from the altar if the diocese has already set an example by allowing girls in the first place. This is a problem that many diocese and parishes are going to have to deal with. Once altar girls are allowed there is no going back unless the Vatican rules that you can’t use them. But even then many dioceses would thumb their noses at the Vatican and still allow this to happen. Heck many diocese were allowing this before the Vatican o.k.'d this in the first place.

 

[Jared123]

Orthodoxy: Right teaching. Since Rome allowed female altar servers, does that mean that they gave us a wrong teaching, Jared?

By the way, I voted that they help vocations. I have a friend who is also an altar server, and he volunteered because his older sister was a server.

Pius X you have to remember that altar girls fall under the category of small “t” tradition within the Church. In other words this isn’t a set doctrine and at any time the Church could do away with it. You have to also understand that what the Vatican allowed wasn’t implemented in a proper way throughout the U.S. As I have pointed out altar girls were to only be used in a time of need. How many dioceses or parishes recruit girls on the same level as the boys. I would say most. How many Catholic schools let all the boys serve and all the girls serve, I would say most.
I have also heard, but can’t cite a source that the Vatican gave the o.k. for altar girls in 1992 when Pope John Paul II was traveling. The final person to allow this was an assistant in the Vatican and that JPII wouldn’t of ever done this. However, once it was out JPII went along with it and was assured that girls would only be used in a time of need. This obviously wasn’t the case.

 

[duskyjewel]

Pius X let me get this right you disagee with the Pope on certain matters, but you are thinking about becoming a priest. You might want to put some more thought into this one.

Jared,

I think Pius X was referring to his parents, as you had mentioned them in a previous post…

As for the JPII was out of town thing…yeah, right. Do you really think that JPII, that fearless warrior of the Church, would have allowed something he really considered to be an error to be done in his name? Or that he would have allowed something he really thought was wrong to continue if it were done without his OK? What would have been his motivation for that? Saving face, avoiding embarrassment? This is JPII we’re talking about here, right? He would have publicly scourged himself if he thought it would benefit the Church and God wanted him to do it. He would not have allowed the order to go out if he really thought it was wrong. And he would have had no trouble at all rescinding it if he thought it was an error perpetrated by taking advantage of his absence.

 

[Jared123]

Jared,

I think Pius X was referring to his parents, as you had mentioned them in a previous post…

DJ,
Pius X says that his parents disagree with the Pope on a few things “as he does.”

 

[duskyjewel]

Oh, sorry…missed that little clause there.

 

[Pius_X]

Pius X let me get this right you disagee with the Pope on certain matters, but you are thinking about becoming a priest. You might want to put some more thought into this one.

I don’t think a girl should be removed from the altar if the diocese has already set an example by allowing girls in the first place. This is a problem that many diocese and parishes are going to have to deal with. Once altar girls are allowed there is no going back unless the Vatican rules that you can’t use them. But even then many dioceses would thumb their noses at the Vatican and still allow this to happen. Heck many diocese were allowing this before the Vatican o.k.'d this in the first place.

We are allowed to disagree on the Pope on things that are not infallible and set into stone. The church has changed position on some issues that are not necessarily unchangable, that is, not officially dogma. I hope you do not mean reconsider becoming a priest, but rather, reconsider my positions. Trust me, I scrutinize them myself all the time. There is a line between being a bit liberal, and still within the realm of acceptable Catholic thought, and denying Christianity.

 

[chicago]

Cardinal George is mincing words, probably because his audiance would cringe if they heard the word orthodox.

Now, you are just being silly in extremis with your preconceived notions. His “audience” was a group of quite conservative Catholics (among the most active in the diocese, including notable leaders) who were readily hoping to hear their prejudices confirmed along the lines of what you would like to see.

While what he said in no way inherantly denied their own suspicions, it did challenge them to think beyond that box and look to other aspects at play. You would do well to likewise expand your perspective.

We are surrounded by a secular culture that can be seen in all churches. There however is one Church that stands out among the others, that will attract people if if doesn’t cave into secularism. Orthodox Catholic dioceses and parishes project strength and stability which draw people as the Cardinal pointed out. If your diocese doesn’t look any different than a protestant diocese, why would this draw a person to that Church. It won’t.

“A Protestant Diocese”?

I don’t think that I would disagree with you as far as this goes, actually. And yet, in order to stand out and stand for something a diocese does not necessarily have to be exactly in the image you purport. There are other ways to stand apart and stand for something worthwhile which will attract. Indeed, each diocese should look different and individually unique, as is appropriate to their local environment.

I am a convert to the faith (believe it or not), I was born and raised a Baptist. I moved to the Lincoln diocese 10 years ago. I went through a very tough time in my life and bascially found God. This happens to many. Now that I knew God existed I wanted to learn as much as I could about him. I looked into several different churches and denominations but they were all lacking something. Fortunantly I lived in a diocese that was very orthodox and had a good young priest that was right out of the seminary. He spent hours talking with me and teaching me about the Catholic Church. It didn’t take very long for me to realize that the Catholic Church was different than all the Protestant Churches. If I lived in a watered down diocese that seemed like just another protestant church there is no way I would of ever converted. The orthodoxy of the Church played a huge part in my conversion.

It could be argued that you still suffer from the extremities of “converts’ zeal”, anxious to attack as an ememy anything which does not conform to your own discovered ideal. Indeed, I’ll go further and suggest that while you may have embraced the Catholic beliefs, you seem to have retained a Baptist outlook and way of going about things.

 

[chicago]

We are allowed to disagree on the Pope on things that are not infallible and set into stone. The church has changed position on some issues that are not necessarily unchangable, that is, not officially dogma. I hope you do not mean reconsider becoming a priest, but rather, reconsider my positions. Trust me, I scrutinize them myself all the time. There is a line between being a bit liberal, and still within the realm of acceptable Catholic thought, and denying Christianity.

Indeed, there is the story of a young boy who would have liked to recieve communion, but was told that he was not “old enough.” He disagreed with the Church’s stance at the time and expressed such to his priest. The pastor quipped in return, “Well, when you become pope, you can change that.” Many years later the boy (who had become a priest) was elected pope. And he then did open up and encourage the reception of communion much more widely than was previously the norm under the standards that were commonly accepted within the Church at the time. What was this rebel’s name, who dared to disagree, even from a young age? Pope Pius X!

 

[chicago]

Pius X you have to remember that altar girls fall under the category of small “t” tradition within the Church. In other words this isn’t a set doctrine and at any time the Church could do away with it.

To reiterate, precisely because of what you state, the Church was able to allow females to serve in this capacity at the altar. And, further, the Church could just as well eliminate all altar boys, too. So it cuts both ways.

You have to also understand that what the Vatican allowed wasn’t implemented in a proper way throughout the U.S. As I have pointed out altar girls were to only be used in a time of need.

Again, that isn’t what the Vatican decreed. Rather, they offered a claification that females were allowed under canon law to serve at Mass. There were no prohibitions or technical matters about “in case of necessity”. They did recommend a continuance of the long standing practice of maintaining a core of altar boys. But it was not absolute or conditional in any way. The matter of how this is dealt with at the diocesan and parish level is, therefore, one of prudence and preference, plain and simple.

How many dioceses or parishes recruit girls on the same level as the boys. I would say most. How many Catholic schools let all the boys serve and all the girls serve, I would say most.
I have also heard, but can’t cite a source that the Vatican gave the o.k. for altar girls in 1992 when Pope John Paul II was traveling. The final person to allow this was an assistant in the Vatican and that JPII wouldn’t of ever done this. However, once it was out JPII went along with it and was assured that girls would only be used in a time of need. This obviously wasn’t the case.

The question was one of canon law and what was allowed. It was not especially a matter of prescribing a directive or permission on service at the altar. It was more a matter of adjudicating what was allowed and whether those who were employing females in service at the altar were within their canonical rights or not, in response to wide practice already existing. Their judgement was that this was, indeed, licit. This ruling opened up the door for its more extended use, where those in charge of decision making decided it would be appropriate.

 

[Petergee]

I have also heard, but can’t cite a source that the Vatican gave the o.k. for altar girls in 1992 when Pope John Paul II was traveling. The final person to allow this was an assistant in the Vatican and that JPII wouldn’t of ever done this. However, once it was out JPII went along with it and was assured that girls would only be used in a time of need. This obviously wasn’t the case.

This is one of the silliest conspiracy theories I’ve heard yet. If you look at the document you’ll see that JP2 formally approved the interpretation of canon law, (that females may serve at the altar on an equal basis with males) almost two years before the interpretation was published.

And no I’m not from Kansas, why do you ask?

 

[chicago]

And no I’m not from Kansas, why do you ask?

Well, you do have the merry old land of “Oz” as your location, great and mighty Wizzard.

 

[Jared123]

“A Protestant Diocese”?

I don’t think that I would disagree with you as far as this goes, actually. And yet, in order to stand out and stand for something a diocese does not necessarily have to be exactly in the image you purport. There are other ways to stand apart and stand for something worthwhile which will attract. Indeed, each diocese should look different and individually unique, as is appropriate to their local environment.

It could be argued that you still suffer from the extremities of “converts’ zeal”, anxious to attack as an ememy anything which does not conform to your own discovered ideal. Indeed, I’ll go further and suggest that while you may have embraced the Catholic beliefs, you seem to have retained a Baptist outlook and way of going about things.

I do believe there are protestant dioceses. Don’t Anglicans have dioceses?
You must remember we are a universal Church and must keep faithful to the Magesterium. When you have an authority figure telling Catholics to “think outside of the box” the alarm bells begin to ring. You can’t replace orthodoxy within the Church and if you can what would you call it since you don’t seem to like this word.
I would be the first to admit that I am zealous about the Catholic faith. Wouldn’t you rather want a zealous Catholic than a lukewarm Catholic. If fact read one of the new threads started on this forum. I think it is titled “why don’t Catholic evangelize.” I spend much of my free time evangelizing about the Catholic Church. Maybe this comes from my Baptist background, but there are many things Catholics can learn from our protestant brothers and sisters and one of those is to stand up profess ones faith.

 

[Jared123]

This is one of the silliest conspiracy theories I’ve heard yet. If you look at the document you’ll see that JP2 formally approved the interpretation of canon law, (that females may serve at the altar on an equal basis with males) almost two years before the interpretation was published.

And no I’m not from Kansas, why do you ask?

As I stated it was just something I heard from a priest, but don’t have a written source to back this up. I will give this priest a call and see if he has anything to back this up.
Why do I ask if you are from Kansas…Oz…I grew up in Kansas and you gotta love the fact that K-State killed Texas in football today.

 

[chicago]

I do believe there are protestant dioceses. Don’t Anglicans have dioceses?

Well, alright. And there are CME Bishops, too. But I don’t think that most people think of “Protestant Dioceses”. Nor that one can just do whatever they want within such a thing because it isn’t Catholic. A certain strong semblance of unity with their bishop and in faith would certainly be retained, just the same as in Catholicism. I fear your metaphor falls flat for what you were attempting to communicate.

You must remember we are a universal Church and must keep faithful to the Magesterium. When you have an authority figure telling Catholics to “think outside of the box” the alarm bells begin to ring. You can’t replace orthodoxy within the Church and if you can what would you call it since you don’t seem to like this word.

I believe that one can certainly “think outside the box” while remaining truly orthodox. Suggesting something like what the cardinal did was in no way unorthodox or even challenging (let alone disdainful of) orthodoxy. It was just looking at the issue from a different (and quite legitimate) angle with some perspective that others might not have thought about, being so intensely focused on seeing things through their own colored glasses.

Indeed, the brilliance of Catholicism is that we are a faith system which is not afriad of pushing the envelope and thinking outside the box in order to see real progress. We embrace all which is true and good. By no means are we mere fundamentalists insisting upon a mere single insight to everything.

Cardinal George is noted as a leading thinker in today’s world and Church, who will certainly offer ideas and perspectives that perhaps no one else would come up with. Nonetheless, he is always able to accomplish this standing within orthodoxy. One might not agree with his thoughts, and even challenge them legitimately, but to suggest that alarm bells of unorthodoxy ought to ring because of something he says is just silly.

Now, if what you are really talking about isn’t truly “orthodoxy” but some certain preferred perspective (be it religious “conservativism”, “traditionalism”, or what have you) then perhaps this is where the problem lies. But, of course, here is also where we are certainly quite free to disagree and take differing views or focus points of emphasis while retaining orthodoxy all around.

I would be the first to admit that I am zealous about the Catholic faith. Wouldn’t you rather want a zealous Catholic than a lukewarm Catholic. If fact read one of the new threads started on this forum. I think it is titled “why don’t Catholic evangelize.” I spend much of my free time evangelizing about the Catholic Church. Maybe this comes from my Baptist background, but there are many things Catholics can learn from our protestant brothers and sisters and one of those is to stand up profess ones faith.

I would agree that Catholics ought to stand up and take pride in the faith more nobly. This could prove a strong, positive witness. And, yet, there is something to the manner in which it is approached which can be either effective or offputting. Refinement of human experience with this sort of interaction prevailing over mere excited and singularly emphasized insistenses (such as one might hear from a reformed smoker, for example) can go a long way in that regard. Therefore, I would rather have a mature Catholic evangelizer, than a mere zealous one.

 

[Pius_X]

Indeed, there is the story of a young boy who would have liked to recieve communion, but was told that he was not “old enough.” He disagreed with the Church’s stance at the time and expressed such to his priest. The pastor quipped in return, “Well, when you become pope, you can change that.” Many years later the boy (who had become a priest) was elected pope. And he then did open up and encourage the reception of communion much more widely than was previously the norm under the standards that were commonly accepted within the Church at the time. What was this rebel’s name, who dared to disagree, even from a young age? Pope Pius X!

Yes, I have heard this before. It is a good story. Thank you!

 

[Maria]

I’ve heard the argument that boys aren’t volunteering because its now a “girl thing” and I disagree from my own experiences.

When I was in Catholic school girls weren’t allowed to be altar servers and I remember when the priest asked for a show of hands of boys who wanted to be altar boys, only two raised their hands because the rest thought it was “uncool” and made fun of the two that raised their hands later. Those two brave boys must have really felt strongly about serving their Church despite the ridicule they received.

Also I recount the priest often making the request before Mass for any altarboys among the congregation to come forward to serve because the scheduled altarboy(s) did not show up. If there wasn’t any in the congregation the priest had to make do which happened a lot. That’s just my experience with the issue in my home parish.

 

[Jared123]

I’ve heard the argument that boys aren’t volunteering because its now a “girl thing” and I disagree from my own experiences.

When I was in Catholic school girls weren’t allowed to be altar servers and I remember when the priest asked for a show of hands of boys who wanted to be altar boys, only two raised their hands because the rest thought it was “uncool” and made fun of the two that raised their hands later. Those two brave boys must have really felt strongly about serving their Church despite the ridicule they received.

Also I recount the priest often making the request before Mass for any altarboys among the congregation to come forward to serve because the scheduled altarboy(s) did not show up. If there wasn’t any in the congregation the priest had to make do which happened a lot. That’s just my experience with the issue in my home parish.

There are times at my parish that the scheduled altarboys don’t show up and the priest walks out of the sacristy and goes up to the first Catholic family with a boy and asked them to serve. They all do at school and know what to do. I have yet to see a boy say no, and if he did his family would make him do it. I guess I still live in place where the priest is highly respected and if he asked the service of anyone for just about anything they will do it out of respect. I can’t imagine living in a place where a priest couldn’t find one boy or family that would help serve for mass.

 

[Jared123]

Therefore, I would rather have a mature Catholic evangelizer, than a mere zealous one.

Thank you Chicago for those fine words. You disagree with me so your revert to calling me names. I would have to say that’s very immature.

 

[chicago]

Thank you Chicago for those fine words. You disagree with me so your revert to calling me names. I would have to say that’s very immature.

No. But making rash judgements like this rather than understanding my assessment in the context I outlined certainly is immature.

And I do think that the harsh zealousness of some is indicative of certain immaturity in the faith, human interactions of effective dialogue, and experience with effective evangelization.

Again, to refer to a comment of Cardinal George, he was once asked what the difference is between evangelization and proselytization. His response was that evangelizers first listen, understand, and then respond with respectful human interaction. Proselytizers tend to speak first, insisting that they be heard and adhered to. Perhaps there is something of maturity to be learned from this insight.

 

[Guitar]

Answer this one question: You agree that the boys who refuse to serve need guidance. Should the girls be removed from their ministry because someone else has a maturity problem?

Bless me, friends, for I have not read the rest of this thread, but this is THE issue I struggle with in the debate over female altar servers.

If the Vatican says “no”, I really do not understand but I do not disobey. If the Vatican says “yes”, personally I think “yay!”, but if the Vatican says “yes” and then someone comes along and says, “if the girls are allowed to do it, the boys won’t, so we must stop the girls doing it” … nuh.

I have the same issue with the Friends of Cathedral Music or whatever they call themselves, who basically believe that a male child’s voice is more spiritual than a female child’s voice, though they go through all sorts of wording gymnastics to avoid saying it directly, and whose only argument against girls singing in cathedral choirs is that it will put boys off.