Vow of obedience/submission of wife to her husband

[STF]

I am getting married. My fiancée and I agree that she would vow to me (love, faithfulness and) obedience/submission. We both desire it. Hovewer this seems problematic in this feministic church. What can be done about it?

We are from Poland, but can travel. Have you heard of any legal, official Catholic vows of obedience/submission of wife to her husband? In Poland we had those until 1928. I have also heard of those in an anglican diocese of Sydney.

 

[Deo_Gratias42]

Submission isn’t part of Catholic marriage, and obedience (rightly understood) is already part of marriage, so a private vow of such would be unnecessary. Furthermore, I think you need to speak to a good priest with a proper understanding of Catholic marriage. A wife is subject to her husband, yes, but the husband is supposed to love her the way Christ loved the Church (ie: sacrifice his life and lay it down for her and the family.)

 

[pianistclare]

Poll is not accurate. This question is an argument waiting to happen and assumes a distorted view of the teaching about marriage.

 

[TimothyH]

The comment that the Church is feminist is quite disgusting. The pinnacle of all creation was a woman.

A woman can vow obedience to her husband if she wants but St. Paul tells us that a husband is supposed to be willing to die for his wife as Christ died for his Church.

This means that he puts his wife before himself in everything, even putting his wife’s very life before his own.

-Tim-

 

[1ke]

I am getting married. My fiancée and I agree that she would vow to me (love, faithfulness and) obedience/submission. We both desire it. Hovewer this seems problematic in this feministic church. What can be done about it?

You are under the mistaken impression that obedience is in catholic wedding vows. It is not. It never has been.

The “obedience” vow comes out of the Protestant Church of England, inserted by Henry VIII.

It has NO PLACE in Catholic wedding vows.

We are from Poland, but can travel. Have you heard of any legal, official Catholic vows of obedience/submission of wife to her husband? In Poland we had those until 1928. I have also heard of those in an anglican diocese of Sydney.

It has never been part of the wedding vows in the marriage rite, not the Tridentine and not the Mass of Paul VI.

You need to get it out of your head that this is something Catholic, it is not.

 

[Sarcelle]

I am getting married. My fiancée and I agree that she would vow to me (love, faithfulness and) obedience/submission. We both desire it. Hovewer this seems problematic in this feministic church. What can be done about it?

We are from Poland, but can travel. Have you heard of any legal, official Catholic vows of obedience/submission of wife to her husband? In Poland we had those until 1928. I have also heard of those in an anglican diocese of Sydney.

Where did you get the idea that the Church is feministic?

Anyway I believe that the husband is the spiritual leader in the marriage but how that plays out in everyday life will look different for each couple.

I have lived in several countries and have attended several Catholic weddings and pretty much all of them are the same official Catholic wedding vows. Nowhere in there was the pledge for a wife to obey her husband. That is an Anglican wedding vow.

 

[Chatter163]

 

[Bookcat]

Submission isn’t part of Catholic marriage, and obedience (rightly understood) is already part of marriage, so a private vow of such would be unnecessary. Furthermore, I think you need to speak to a good priest with a proper understanding of Catholic marriage. A wife is subject to her husband, yes, but the husband is supposed to love her the way Christ loved the Church (ie: sacrifice his life and lay it down for her and the family.)

It depends on the translation one is using of the Scriptures - some have “submit” others have “be subject”. Not sure what it is in Polish - would have to check (I checked briefly and it is thought the the word used there in Polish is like our “submit” -that is going on the memory of what it was in their Polish translation).

But yes in english we generally do *not *use the term “submission” when discussing such.

Yes it is very important that the OP and his future wife understand the fullness of what the Scriptures and the Church teach in this area.

 

[tee_eff_em]

:twocents:
I think wife and husband should submit to one another.
I think a wife should be submissive to her husband as to the LORD.
I think a husband should love his wife as Christ loves the Church and LAY DOWN HIS LIFE FOR HER.


tee

 

[Sarcelle]

Yes, straight and on point.

 

[Latinitas]

I am getting married. My fiancée and I agree that she would vow to me (love, faithfulness and) obedience/submission. We both desire it. Hovewer this seems problematic in this feministic church. What can be done about it?

We are from Poland, but can travel. Have you heard of any legal, official Catholic vows of obedience/submission of wife to her husband? In Poland we had those until 1928. I have also heard of those in an anglican diocese of Sydney.

In her vows the wife implies that she will obey in those things which are 1) lawful and 2) not contrary to her good or the good of her husbnad/family.

While unfortunately, feminism has plagued the Church recently, the Church herself is not feminist.

While other posters are incorrect to say that submission/obedience is not mandatory for the wife, as is clear from St. Paul’s teachings and the tradition of the Church, do be careful that this does not denigrate into chattel submission, which is indeed contrary to the wife’s dignity.

Benedicat Deus,
Latinitas

 

[Bookcat]

I am getting married. My fiancée and I agree that she would vow to me (love, faithfulness and) obedience/submission. We both desire it. Hovewer this seems problematic in this feministic church. What can be done about it?

We are from Poland, but can travel. Have you heard of any legal, official Catholic vows of obedience/submission of wife to her husband? In Poland we had those until 1928. I have also heard of those in an anglican diocese of Sydney.

1. Feministic Church - yes the Church is the “bride of Christ” and “mother”. But the Church is not “feministic” in some negative way. There may be some persons in the Church who embrace a wrong kind of “feminism” - but those are those persons.
2. Regarding the “consent” which is exchanged and which is part of the very Sacrament of Marriage - there is no room for changing that form. The Church has given a few options for such - but one must choose one of those forms. One may not alter them. And a Catholic must get married according to the Church’s form if (or with a dispensation from form in terms of marrying a non-Catholic) if they want to be married.

But are there forms of consent in the Catholic Church that include the word “obey”? Yes I believe so. Where? That would be the Ordinariate created for Anglicans who were coming into full communion with the Catholic Church under Anglicanorum
cœtibus.

So I imagine such are not in Poland. And I imagine your wanting to get married in Polish not English! But no worries - the nature of marriage (in its fullness) remains the same even if one rite emphasizes an aspect that another does not emphasize. The full supernatural reality of the Sacrament remains. The Sacrifice of the Husband is not always emphasized in the rite either -but it part of marriage itself.

1. The in common speech people use the term “wedding vows”…like they use “baptismal vows” they are not “vows” in the sense of “vows” as the term is used in religious vows or private vows.
2. English translations of the Scriptures use different words - some have “submit” others have “be subject”. Not sure what it is in Polish - would have to check (I checked briefly and it is thought the the word used there in Polish is like our “submit” -that is going on the memory of what it was in their Polish translation).

But yes in English we generally do not use the term “submission” when discussing such. That term can have a kind of negative connotation in English these days.

Also it is very important that you understand the fullness of what the Scriptures and the Church teach in this area. For some can misunderstand or take only one aspect and forget the rest or understand that aspect incorrectly. It is important to know what the Church Teaches in its fullness.

 

[Xantippe]

I am getting married. My fiancée and I agree that she would vow to me (love, faithfulness and) obedience/submission. We both desire it. Hovewer this seems problematic in this feministic church. What can be done about it?

We are from Poland, but can travel. Have you heard of any legal, official Catholic vows of obedience/submission of wife to her husband? In Poland we had those until 1928. I have also heard of those in an anglican diocese of Sydney.

In future, if you are drunk, do you want your future wife to give you car keys and allow you to drive your wife and kids drunk?

Also, if you should ever suffer dementia, do you want your future wife to allow you to wander around outside in the snow in your pajamas?

If you should ever be diagnosed with a mental illness, do you want your future wife to meekly allow you to spend your life savings?

Think about it.

 

[Bookcat]

In future, if you are drunk, do you want your future wife to give you car keys and allow you to drive your wife and kids drunk?

Also, if you should ever suffer dementia, do you want your future wife to allow you to wander around outside in the snow in your pajamas?

If you should ever be diagnosed with a mental illness, do you want your future wife to meekly allow you to spend your life savings?

Think about it.

What does any of that have to do with price of tea in China or anywhere?

 

[Xantippe]

What does any of that have to do with price of tea in China or anywhere?

Well, my point was, does the OP even want to be obeyed under all conceivable circumstances?

None of the cases I mentioned are far-fetched–drunk driving is common, mental illness is common, and dementia is sadly common. One often meets little old ladies caring for husbands with dementia–it would be a genuine disaster in such cases if the wife were to treat the afflicted husband’s word as law.

Total obedience is just not workable, and in many cases, not even a loving choice.

 

[Bookcat]

Well, my point was, does the OP even want to be obeyed under all conceivable circumstances?

None of the cases I mentioned are far-fetched–drunk driving is common, mental illness is common, and dementia is sadly common. One often meets little old ladies caring for husbands with dementia–it would be a genuine disaster in such cases if the wife were to treat the afflicted husband’s word as law.

But that is taking the thread off topic. Does not have anything to do with the persons questions.

 

[Bookcat]

Well, my point was, does the OP even want to be obeyed under all conceivable circumstances?

None of the cases I mentioned are far-fetched–drunk driving is common, mental illness is common, and dementia is sadly common. One often meets little old ladies caring for husbands with dementia–it would be a genuine disaster in such cases if the wife were to treat the afflicted husband’s word as law.

Total obedience is just not workable, and in many cases, not even a loving choice.

Again nothing to do with the persons questions.

 

[Bookcat]

Well, my point was, does the OP even want to be obeyed under all conceivable circumstances?

None of the cases I mentioned are far-fetched–drunk driving is common, mental illness is common, and dementia is sadly common. One often meets little old ladies caring for husbands with dementia–it would be a genuine disaster in such cases if the wife were to treat the afflicted husband’s word as law.

Total obedience is just not workable, and in many cases, not even a loving choice.

But that is taking the thread off topic. Does not have anything to do with the persons questions.

 

[Xantippe]

But that is taking the thread off topic. Does not have anything to do with the persons questions.

Sure it does.

He asks in his OP: “I am getting married. My fiancée and I agree that she would vow to me (love, faithfulness and) obedience/submission. We both desire it. Hovewer this seems problematic in this feministic church. What can be done about it? We are from Poland, but can travel. Have you heard of any legal, official Catholic vows of obedience/submission of wife to her husband? In Poland we had those until 1928. I have also heard of those in an anglican diocese of Sydney.”

What I’m asking is, is expecting total obedience and total submission from a wife a good idea? I think that’s a highly relevant question.

And I’m giving a number of examples to suggest that no, it’s not a good idea.

There’s a reason why that is not in the standard Catholic wedding vows.

I understand the OP and sympathize, as when my husband and I were dewy young things, I was gung ho, very eager to submit, but so very bad at understanding what that might actually mean, or what the fine print was.

There’s a very smart Protestant marriage blogger who has been married a long, long time who has a good piece here:

tolovehonorandvacuum.com/2015/05/on-submission-wedding-showers-and-choosing-a-mate/

Here are some quotes that I have found helpful:

"There’s an intellectual problem with the idea [of submission]: we are to submit to our husbands, EXCEPT in cases of abuse and alcoholism and weird sex stuff. Either the Bible is true or it’s not.

"Except that we know that women aren’t supposed to go along with sin.

"So how do we reconcile it?

"I think the problem is that we define submission wrong. We define submission as in going along with someone’s WILL. Letting him make the decisions, and following him in that. But that makes no sense as the definition of submission because of the verse immediately before, in Ephesians 5:21: Submit to one another. How can we all be letting someone else make the decisions? Then no one would make decisions!

“Maybe submission is about something else. Maybe submission means that we consider other’s welfare before our own. If that’s the case, then we DO always submit–even in cases of alcoholism or adultery or abuse.”

 

[Bookcat]

Sure it does.

What I’m asking is, is expecting total obedience and total submission from a wife a good idea? I think that’s a highly relevant question.

Sure it does not …

Where is he expecting total obedience …total submission from his wife that would include such things as your examples?

Your bringing up examples of where a wife should obey her husband or even a husband should not submit to his wife…have nothing to do with his question.

Should the person research well and know the teachings of Sacred Scripture and the Church on this topic as well as other aspects of the teachings on Marriage? And understand them - Sure.

And to get to your post - can it be good for them to understand what would be examples of where one would not listen to ones spouse? Sure.

But this is off the topic of the thread.