Vow of obedience/submission of wife to her husband

[Xantippe]

I imagine like many things your “mileage will vary” from place to place and person to person…

(There is a much that one could study for years…)

It didn’t come up in our marriage prep. Our pastor was not that kind of priest…

I feel like it probably should have, as we had the general ideas, but no idea as to what the actual application ought to look like, or what the fine print was. I didn’t even realize there was fine print for a really long time.

It would have been really helpful to have some, “What about XYZ?” questions to help crystallize our thinking. As I mentioned previously, we never thought about hard cases.

It’s really not workable to just say “obey” or “submit” and leave it at that–it’s actually a very complicated issue, just as obedience to any authority (for instance parents or military superiors) is quite complicated.

And yes, I think it’s really important for to understand what they are saying before making promises.

 

[Bookcat]

It’s really not workable to just say “obey” or “submit” and leave it at that–it’s actually a very complicated issue, just as obedience to any authority (for instance parents or military superiors) is quite complicated.

And yes, I think it’s really important for to understand what they are saying before making promises.

Perhaps. Not everyone comes into complicated cases…

But yes it can be.

And yes Marriage is a very serious Vocation and certainly persons should understand in a good way what that they are entering into.

 

[LightBound]

The OP is fixated on the submission issue being part of the vows to the point he is willing to travel to find a priest that will include that…will he also make sure his part of giving up himself, even to death, for the protection and benefit of his wife will be part of his publicly spoken vows, too? Just something to think about in light of those verses in Ephesians…

 

[Bookcat]

The OP is fixated on the submission issue being part of the vows to the point he is willing to travel to find a priest that will include that…will he also make sure his part of giving up himself, even to death, for the protection and benefit of his wife will be part of his publicly spoken vows, too? Just something to think about in light of those verses in Ephesians…

Fixated?

The person is asking a question - both he and his fiancee…

Seeking if there was a form of consent in the Church that contained that aspect of marriage - that word “obey”.

Not being fixated on one aspect of Marriage.

 

[Xantippe]

Perhaps. Not everyone comes into complicated cases…

But yes it can be.

And yes Marriage is a very serious Vocation and certainly persons should understand in a good way what that they are entering into.

Well, even simple stuff can be more complicated than on first blush and it can take a while to realize that there are problems–also, if you are the person who is supposed to be submitting, it’s much more complicated.

For instance, for quite a while, I would tell my husband that I wanted to go upstairs (meaning to go to bed because I was sleepy). He would tell me to wait for him and I would, while practically seeing double from exhaustion and feeling very resentful that he was not letting me go to bed.

Anyway, come to find out that we were working with totally different and contradictory theories of submission.

My theory was that I should do whatever he asked–unless it was a big deal and I was sure that his idea was harmful. I didn’t feel like I had the right to say no to minor stuff, but I did feel angry about it, especially when he asked me to do a lot of little things for him that I knew that he could do for himself. I felt like he was being selfish and lazy.

Meanwhile, my husband had a completely different theory of submission. He felt free to ask me lots of little favors, believing that I had the right to say no if I didn’t feel like it, just as a friend could say no. He, likewise, felt free to say no to me when I asked him for help–and he did so quite frequently. His idea of submission was that we could discuss minor things but that when it was a major disagreement, I should submit to him. He, for his part, felt that I was not submitting. Meanwhile, I saw all the little things that I was doing without complaint. But he didn’t–because I wasn’t complaining (just seething on the inside).

So, what can we learn from this sad and rather embarrassing (but very educational!) episode?

1. My husband and I had totally opposite theories of submission, but didn’t realize it, because we hadn’t talked about it in a decade and a half and hadn’t realized that just saying the word “submission” is not helpful in working through disagreements.
2. I did not realize that my husband was asking me lots of little things that were actually optional, whereas for me, each request from him was a BIG deal. Similarly, he didn’t understand that I was asking him relatively few things, and when I said it, it was a BIG deal to me. I would not ask him for something if it wasn’t important and something I could not easily do myself.

In the going-to-bed example, my husband didn’t realize that when I said I wanted to go upstairs late at night, I meant that I was exhausted and needed to go to bed immediately. It did not occur to me that (at 11:45 PM) it was necessary to connect those dots for him–but it was. He also did not realize that I was treating his request as an order.

1. As you can see, neither of our theories of submission were actually very functional. Mine was a problem because it made me really mad at my husband. My husband’s theory, on the other hand, was logically problematic. He wanted to us to have freedom of discussion up to a point–but then he wanted to “win” any major issue.

That was probably what I myself would have believed when I was a young bride, but I was very inexperienced at the time. Now that I’ve been married for a long time, I see the problem with it–if it is a major issue, that is exactly when it’s unreasonable to expect a wife to automatically knuckle under. If it’s important, it’s worth fighting about.

1. So, to summarize, there be dragons. Talk! Learn! Don’t assume anything!

 

[Bookcat]

Well, even simple stuff can be more complicated

Or it can be more simple

 

[pianistclare]

Well, true, there are people that never permit the other person to have last word.

 

[babochka]

Well, true, there are people that never permit the other person to have last word.

 

[ProVobis]

Well, true, there are people that never permit the other person to have last word.

I’m out and that’s my last word.

 

[3DOCTORS]

The pastor of my parish preaches on this subject. He makes it clear that the husband is the head of the family - but not for the purpose of being domineering or anything else that would be sinful and selfish. He made a play on the word “submission” - “sub” = under and “mission” saying that the mission of the family is to get to Heaven, the husband/father the leader of that journey. So the wife is under the mission of the husband. The children submit to the parents. Everyone in love is working and praying and practicing charity to help each other get to Heaven. And needless to say, all are submitted to God.

I would recommend the OP read St. John Paul II’s encyclical On the Dignity and Vocation of Women w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_letters/1988/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19880815_mulieris-dignitatem.html

 

[AnnArbor]

This came up in our marriage prep – the priest made it clear that we were partners, with equal authority in all matters spiritual and temporal. We understood that each was to be self-sacrificing for the other and for the family – and it’s worked well for us for many years.

 

[Bookcat]

This came up in our marriage prep – the priest made it clear that we were partners, with equal authority in all matters spiritual and temporal. We understood that each was to be self-sacrificing for the other and for the family – and it’s worked well for us for many years.

Such would not be a full formation in the Nature of the Sacrament of Marriage.

Yes equal in dignity but that that is only part of the subject.

 

[Xantippe]

Such would not be a full formation in the Nature of the Sacrament of Marriage.

Yes equal in dignity but that that is only part of the subject.

I’m somewhat skeptical that anybody gets “full formation” in marriage prep.

 

[dskysmine]

The form of the question is also a bit unfortunate for me:
“Do you acknowledge that wife should be submitted unto her husband?”
It sounds as if a 3rd party is doing a submission of a woman like a form…
“unto” here also sounds weird, as the question mixes KJV style wordings like “unto” with “acknowledge” which isn’t so much.
Something like:
“Do you agree that women should submit to their husbands?” would be fairly more in line with normal Catholic understanding.

When I read submission here I read the kind of submission that I as a Catholic have for what the Pope says.
I don’t necessarily follow every single thing he says, but especially for the things I do not understand I trust that his voice speaks God’s will for me.
I do admit I am male, so it might be easier for me to discuss this than most females, but I also think that the reverse part “love your wives” isn’t that easy either…
My “guess” is that Paul touched on particular difficulties of each gender that are characteristically poignant in regards to how we relate to God.
As a logical and rational man it’s very difficult to relate to some of the emotions that my wife shares with me, so I can hear a little voice in my head telling me “you are not loving your wife”, very often.
I imagine it’s difficult as well if you are a wife and your husband asks you for something that you might think would be very difficult for you.
As a child I certainly know it was difficult to submit to my parents, but I have learned so much from that.

We could write books about this subject. It’s not easily explained in a single post…

God Bless,
D.

 

[tawny]

Poll is not accurate. This question is an argument waiting to happen and assumes a distorted view of the teaching about marriage.

Absolutely.

 

[Bookcat]

The form of the question is also a bit unfortunate for me:
“Do you acknowledge that wife should be submitted unto her husband?”

The OP Is from Poland - so English is not their first Language…

 

[Xantippe]

I imagine it’s difficult as well if you are a wife and your husband asks you for something that you might think would be very difficult for you.
As a child I certainly know it was difficult to submit to my parents, but I have learned so much from that.

We could write books about this subject. It’s not easily explained in a single post…

God Bless,
D.

“I imagine it’s difficult as well if you are a wife and your husband asks you for something that you might think would be very dificult for you”…or just plain wrong or harmful.

Also, see upthread my example of my husband repeatedly keeping me from going to bed. It was hard for me to stay up when I was falling asleep on my feet, but stayed up with him anyway, because my husband told me to. He, meanwhile, didn’t realize that he was causing me a lot of distress.

I think that’s actually not uncommon among spouses–to not realize how much pain one is causing. And unfortunately, a “strong” submission program can exacerbate the problem, because it can choke off important spousal communication.

Here’s a post by a Protestant woman talking about how taking a too “strong” view of wifely submission hurt her, hurt her family, and hurt her marriage:

iprefercaptain.com/2014/07/15/

It’s a very dangerous area to approach without nuance.

It’s interesting that you mention the child’s obedience to the parent. There are some important disanalogies and analogies. For instance, the child is usually only under the parents’ full authority temporarily, until they achieve independent adulthood. After that, the child ought to honor the parent, but is not bound to obey. (And even in their minor years, they are not bound to sin just because their parents tell them to.)

Also, in modern society, children may be removed from the parental home if parents are cruel or neglectful.

Also, good parents recognize that (barring disability) the children that live under their roof are there only temporarily and ought to be on the road to complete independence. There should be a program of gradually increasing responsibility and independence, so that by the time the child has reached majority, they are able to function effectively on their own.

Consider, also, the fact that minor children are generally not left alone for substantial periods of time. Meanwhile, a wife and mother needs to be able to function without her husband, be that for a day, a week, a month, a year, or forever if he should die.

Also, Casti Connubii specifically says that wives are not to be treated as permanent minors.

 

[dskysmine]

“I imagine it’s difficult as well if you are a wife and your husband asks you for something that you might think would be very dificult for you”…or just plain wrong or harmful.

Also, see upthread my example of my husband repeatedly keeping me from going to bed. It was hard for me to stay up when I was falling asleep on my feet, but stayed up with him anyway, because my husband told me to. He, meanwhile, didn’t realize that he was causing me a lot of distress.

I think that’s actually not uncommon among spouses–to not realize how much pain one is causing. And unfortunately, a “strong” submission program can exacerbate the problem, because it can choke off important spousal communication.

Here’s a post by a Protestant woman talking about how taking a too “strong” view of wifely submission hurt her, hurt her family, and hurt her marriage:

iprefercaptain.com/2014/07/15/

It’s a very dangerous area to approach without nuance.

It’s interesting that you mention the child’s obedience to the parent. There are some important disanalogies and analogies. For instance, the child is usually only under the parents’ full authority temporarily, until they achieve independent adulthood. After that, the child ought to honor the parent, but is not bound to obey. (And even in their minor years, they are not bound to sin just because their parents tell them to.)

Also, in modern society, children may be removed from the parental home if parents are cruel or neglectful.

Also, good parents recognize that (barring disability) the children that live under their roof are there only temporarily and ought to be on the road to complete independence. There should be a program of gradually increasing responsibility and independence, so that by the time the child has reached majority, they are able to function effectively on their own.

Consider, also, the fact that minor children are generally not left alone for substantial periods of time. Meanwhile, a wife and mother needs to be able to function without her husband, be that for a day, a week, a month, a year, or forever if he should die.

Also, Casti Connubii specifically says that wives are not to be treated as permanent minors.

I think your example might not be necessarily a question of presence or lack of “submission” but rather a miscommunication.
When I am talking about submission and love I am talking in a world where communication isn’t a problem.
Of course I am idealizing it… because in most couples communication is the biggest problem.

God bless,
D.

 

[Sarcelle]

“I imagine it’s difficult as well if you are a wife and your husband asks you for something that you might think would be very dificult for you”…or just plain wrong or harmful.

Also, see upthread my example of my husband repeatedly keeping me from going to bed. It was hard for me to stay up when I was falling asleep on my feet, but stayed up with him anyway, because my husband told me to. He, meanwhile, didn’t realize that he was causing me a lot of distress.

I think that’s actually not uncommon among spouses–to not realize how much pain one is causing. And unfortunately, a “strong” submission program can exacerbate the problem, because it can choke off important spousal communication.

Here’s a post by a Protestant woman talking about how taking a too “strong” view of wifely submission hurt her, hurt her family, and hurt her marriage:

iprefercaptain.com/2014/07/15/

It’s a very dangerous area to approach without nuance.

It’s interesting that you mention the child’s obedience to the parent. There are some important disanalogies and analogies. For instance, the child is usually only under the parents’ full authority temporarily, until they achieve independent adulthood. After that, the child ought to honor the parent, but is not bound to obey. (And even in their minor years, they are not bound to sin just because their parents tell them to.)

Also, in modern society, children may be removed from the parental home if parents are cruel or neglectful.

Also, good parents recognize that (barring disability) the children that live under their roof are there only temporarily and ought to be on the road to complete independence. There should be a program of gradually increasing responsibility and independence, so that by the time the child has reached majority, they are able to function effectively on their own.

Consider, also, the fact that minor children are generally not left alone for substantial periods of time. Meanwhile, a wife and mother needs to be able to function without her husband, be that for a day, a week, a month, a year, or forever if he should die.

Also, Casti Connubii specifically says that wives are not to be treated as permanent minors.

Talking about treating women as perpetual minors, I know there are Protestant denominations which require grown, single women to live with their family of origin until marriage so the woman is living with a male authority figure all her life. In Wahhabi Islam, women are supposed to get permission slips from a male member of her family authorizing her to go out of the house or to travel.

 

[Xantippe]

I think your example might not be necessarily a question of presence or lack of “submission” but rather a miscommunication.
When I am talking about submission and love I am talking in a world where communication isn’t a problem.
Of course I am idealizing it… because in most couples communication is the biggest problem.

God bless,
D.

Right.

I also strongly suspect that too “strong” a view of submission contributes to communication breakdowns.