Vow of obedience/submission of wife to her husband

[NovusFidem]

What I’m asking is, is expecting total obedience and total submission from a wife a good idea? I think that’s a highly relevant question.

Valid question, very good question.

I do not think it is a good idea to EXPECT anything from anyone else. As a wife, it would have to e MY initiative to be submissive and obedient to my husband. As a husband, it would be MY initiative to be faithful and caring and lay down my life for my wife.

But to expect anything from another person is to trail down a road to divorce: people divorce because their ‘expectations’ do not meet the reality of the other person.

Sure; I’d only seek to marry a woman/man who had the intention to be faithful, and caring, and loving, and obedient, and many other qualities; but, if down the road something changed (because, well, people change - sometimes for the better, sometimes for worse), I shouldn’t let my** ‘expectations’** stop me from keeping my vows: to love, and care, and protect the other.

Just do your part, with sincere hope that the other will do the same. But do not ‘expect’ them to do anything just because you are doing your part.

 

[Xantippe]

Sure it does not …

Where is he expecting total obedience …total submission from his wife that would include such things as your examples?

I don’t think he does know what he’s asking for, and that’s what I’m asking him to think about.

When he says “submission” and “obedience,” what does he mean, and does it make sense?

It’s a very important question.

I know that when my husband and I were sweethearts and newlyweds, I believed passionately in wifely obedience and submission because I grew up as an Evangelical and it’s in the Bible, but as a matter of fact, I didn’t practice it. I had no idea what that I was talking about because my husband and I never talked or thought about “hard cases” and growing up, I had never seen the process of peacefully and effectively working out disagreements.

My views have changed a lot since then, but it would have saved a lot of trouble if I’d started thinking about the nuts and bolts earlier–but I had a very naive view.

I’m suggesting to the OP that he and his fiancee need to think harder about this and talk about the hard cases.

 

[pianistclare]

Yup. I will add, that the notion of “submission” is not some excuse to harm your spouse and get away with it. For either party.

 

[pianistclare]

Sure it does not …

Where is he expecting total obedience …total submission from his wife that would include such things as your examples?

Your bringing up examples of where a wife should obey her husband or even a husband should not submit to his wife…have nothing to do with his question.

Should the person research well and know the teachings of Sacred Scripture and the Church on this topic as well as other aspects of the teachings on Marriage? And understand them - Sure.

And to get to your post - can it be good for them to understand what would be examples of where one would not listen to ones spouse? Sure.

But this is off the topic of the thread.

off topic?
I think it’s the whole point of the thread.

 

[Bookcat]

off topic?
I think it’s the whole point of the thread.

No he is I would say mainly * asking* about a form of consent -about the rite…in the Liturgy -Sacraments forum…(though yes his poll does ask for a yes or no about another question - I will grant you that–alas i generally ignore such polls and just look at the question in the thread…)

 

[Bookcat]

I don’t think he does know what he’s asking for, and that’s what I’m asking him to think about.

When he says “submission” and “obedience,” what does he mean, and does it make sense?

Perhaps.

Or maybe he does know what the Scriptures and Church Teaches about the matter and is just looking to find if there is a rite that expresses that part of the teaching. And remember too he is in Poland -not a native English speaker.

But yes certainly he and she - should form themselves with the full teaching of the Church on the matter and what it means and does not mean.

The question though it seems to me was - is there a Catholic form of the marriage consent that would include the word obey that Peter uses in his letter etc.

There is - but not likely in Poland.

 

[ProVobis]

1. Feministic Church - yes the Church is the “bride of Christ” and “mother”. But the Church is not “feministic” in some negative way. There may be some persons in the Church who embrace a wrong kind of “feminism” - but those are those persons.
2. Regarding the “consent” which is exchanged and which is part of the very Sacrament of Marriage - there is no room for changing that form. The Church has given a few options for such - but one must choose one of those forms. One may not alter them. And a Catholic must get married according to the Church’s form if (or with a dispensation from form in terms of marrying a non-Catholic) if they want to be married.

But are there forms of consent in the Catholic Church that include the word “obey”? Yes I believe so. Where? That would be the Ordinariate created for Anglicans who were coming into full communion with the Catholic Church under Anglicanorum
cœtibus.

So I imagine such are not in Poland. And I imagine your wanting to get married in Polish not English! But no worries - the nature of marriage (in its fullness) remains the same even if one rite emphasizes an aspect that another does not emphasize. The full supernatural reality of the Sacrament remains. The Sacrifice of the Husband is not always emphasized in the rite either -but it part of marriage itself.

1. The in common speech people use the term “wedding vows”…like they use “baptismal vows” they are not “vows” in the sense of “vows” as the term is used in religious vows or private vows.
2. English translations of the Scriptures use different words - some have “submit” others have “be subject”. Not sure what it is in Polish - would have to check (I checked briefly and it is thought the the word used there in Polish is like our “submit” -that is going on the memory of what it was in their Polish translation).

But yes in English we generally do not use the term “submission” when discussing such. That term can have a kind of negative connotation in English these days.

Also it is very important that you understand the fullness of what the Scriptures and the Church teach in this area. For some can misunderstand or take only one aspect and forget the rest or understand that aspect incorrectly. It is important to know what the Church Teaches in its fullness.

I agree with much of what you say.

We do seem to be confused as to what “obey” means these days. Is it submission to a direct command, for example? I doubt if St. Paul mean husbands to command their wives. I know my mother would ask me to drive her here and there. I took it to be a command although I could have used the argument that I wasn’t disobeying her because there was no actual command.

Your point on the Polish is valid. I couldn’t begin to tell you what the translation into Polish should be.

 

[persevere71]

that made me laugh…

 

[Bookcat]

Just to give again what I noted so as not to be missed in my later posts (I too expressed that the OP make sure they know what the Church teaches and does not teach in this regard…so I understand the concern that persons are well informed on such)

1. Feministic Church - yes the Church is the “bride of Christ” and “mother”. But the Church is not “feministic” in some negative way. There may be some persons in the Church who embrace a wrong kind of “feminism” - but those are those persons.
2. Regarding the “consent” which is exchanged and which is part of the very Sacrament of Marriage - there is no room for changing that form. The Church has given a few options for such - but one must choose one of those forms. One may not alter them. And a Catholic must get married according to the Church’s form if (or with a dispensation from form in terms of marrying a non-Catholic) if they want to be married.

But are there forms of consent in the Catholic Church that include the word “obey”? Yes I believe so. Where? That would be the Ordinariate created for Anglicans who were coming into full communion with the Catholic Church under Anglicanorum
cœtibus.

So I imagine such are not in Poland. And I imagine your wanting to get married in Polish not English! But no worries - the nature of marriage (in its fullness) remains the same even if one rite emphasizes an aspect that another does not emphasize. The full supernatural reality of the Sacrament remains. The Sacrifice of the Husband is not always emphasized in the rite either -but it part of marriage itself.

1. The in common speech people use the term “wedding vows”…like they use “baptismal vows” they are not “vows” in the sense of “vows” as the term is used in religious vows or private vows.
2. English translations of the Scriptures use different words - some have “submit” others have “be subject”. Not sure what it is in Polish - would have to check (I checked briefly and it is thought the the word used there in Polish is like our “submit” -that is going on the memory of what it was in their Polish translation).

But yes in English we generally do not use the term “submission” when discussing such. That term can have a kind of negative connotation in English these days.

Also it is very important that you understand the fullness of what the Scriptures and the Church teach in this area. For some can misunderstand or take only one aspect and forget the rest or understand that aspect incorrectly. It is important to know what the Church Teaches in its fullness.

 

[Bookcat]

“obedience”

It has NO PLACE in Catholic wedding vows.

You need to get it out of your head that this is something Catholic, it is not.

See my above post. (as to the term vows see above too)

It IS yes something Catholic. Both in Scripture and Teaching of the Church (which one must understand fully and correctly of course…without errors creeping in) …and yes even the word* “obey”* is yes also in a Catholic form of the Roman Rite (in two places!) - meaning that which is under Anglicanorum Cœtibus for those of the Ordinariate.

That IS Catholic. In complete communion with the Successor of Peter. I am not part of the Ordinariate - but such is the case.

Now as I noted above that is not something in Poland I assume and I would think the person would be getting married in Polish…(so that would not be an option for them…)

 

[Xantippe]

Perhaps.

Or maybe he does know what the Scriptures and Church Teaches about the matter and is just looking to find if there is a rite that expresses that part of the teaching. And remember too he is in Poland -not a native English speaker.

But yes certainly he and she - should form themselves with the full teaching of the Church on the matter and what it means and does not mean.

The question though it seems to me was - is there a Catholic form of the marriage consent that would include the word obey that Peter uses in his letter etc.

There is - but not likely in Poland.

I don’t know about the liturgical propriety of this, but one possibility is to ask for Ephesians 5 as one of the wedding readings. (We did that, as a matter of fact. We also used Psalm 128 and the passage from Ruth where Ruth promises I will go where you go, your people will be my people, and your God will be my God.)

I think there’s a lot to be said for just using the normal wording.

 

[LightBound]

Here we go again with this odd and rather creepy fixation on “obedience and submission”. When it comes to the point that a man is wanting it included in the marriage vows and the fiancee wants it too, it has lost the sense of self-giving and love and now has become some kind of legalistic Duggar creepiness. Not exactly the two becomes one, but more of the man says jump and little woman meekly asks "how high, master? This all smacks of that Dalrock **** site

 

[Bookcat]

I don’t know about the liturgical propriety of this, but one possibility is to ask for Ephesians 5 as one of the wedding readings. (We did that, as a matter of fact. We also used Psalm 128 and the passage from Ruth where Ruth promises I will go where you go, your people will be my people, and your God will be my God.)

I think there’s a lot to be said for just using the normal wording.

Well the form that I noted -IS- one of the normal wordings in the Church (for those in that Ordinariate).

But yes the persons in question would use the form most of us are used to - for they are in a Diocese in Poland not in the Ordinarate.

But yes perhaps the choice of readings can make their wedding bring to light aspects they wish to emphasize. Good idea.

 

[Bookcat]

I am getting married. My fiancée and I agree that she would vow to me (love, faithfulness and) obedience/submission. We both desire it. Hovewer this seems problematic in this feministic church. What can be done about it?

We are from Poland, but can travel. Have you heard of any legal, official Catholic vows of obedience/submission of wife to her husband? In Poland we had those until 1928. I have also heard of those in an anglican diocese of Sydney.

1. Feministic Church - yes the Church is the “bride of Christ” and “mother”. But the Church is not “feministic” in some negative way. There may be some persons in the Church who embrace a wrong kind of “feminism” - but those are those persons.
2. Regarding the “consent” which is exchanged and which is part of the very Sacrament of Marriage - there is no room for changing that form. The Church has given a few options for such - but one must choose one of those forms. One may not alter them. And a Catholic must get married according to the Church’s form if (or with a dispensation from form in terms of marrying a non-Catholic) if they want to be married.

But are is there a form of consent in the Catholic Church that includes the word “obey”? Yes there is. Where? That would be the Ordinariate created for Anglicans who were coming into full communion with the Catholic Church under Anglicanorum cœtibus. The rite there uses the word “obey” at least 2 times -including in one of the options for the consent. Such IS part of a Catholic Rite.

But I imagine such are not in Poland. And I imagine your wanting to get married in Polish not English! But no worries - the nature of marriage (in its fullness) remains the same even if one rite emphasizes an aspect that another does not emphasize. The full supernatural reality of the Sacrament remains. The Sacrifice of the Husband is not always emphasized in the rite either -but it part of marriage itself.

As one person noted above - one option if you wish to emphasize a certain aspect of Marriage - one can choose readings that do that.

1. The in common speech people use the term “wedding vows”…like they use “baptismal vows” they are not “vows” in the sense of “vows” as the term is used in religious vows or private vows.
2. English translations of the Scriptures use different words - some have “submit” others have “be subject”. Not sure what it is in Polish - would have to check (I checked briefly and it is thought the the word used there in Polish is like our “submit” -that is going on the memory of what it was in their Polish translation).

But yes in English we generally do not use the term “submission” when discussing such. That term can have a kind of negative connotation in English these days.

Also it is very important that you understand the fullness of what the Scriptures and the Church teach in this area. For some can misunderstand or take only one aspect and forget the rest or understand that aspect incorrectly. It is important to know what the Church Teaches in its fullness.

 

[babochka]

I am getting married. My fiancée and I agree that she would vow to me (love, faithfulness and) obedience/submission. We both desire it. Hovewer this seems problematic in this feministic church. What can be done about it?

We are from Poland, but can travel. Have you heard of any legal, official Catholic vows of obedience/submission of wife to her husband? In Poland we had those until 1928. I have also heard of those in an anglican diocese of Sydney.

The official books of the Byzantine Catholic Metropolia of Pittsburgh include a vow which does include the terminology “matrimonial obedience”. Vows are not part of the Byzantine tradition and are not a necessary part of the crowning ceremony. They are usually omitted in practice. Nevertheless, they are in the official books of a Catholic Church. I heard them used as recently as two years ago.

As in interesting side note, given your reference to the vows spoken in Poland until 1928, it is my understanding that these vows were originally placed in the Byzantine Rite to comply with Polish secular laws and the Church in America inherited them. Perhaps the situation was similar in the Latin Church in Poland, and was corrected in due time by the appropriate Church authorities.

THE MARRIAGE VOWS
The groom and bride join their right hands upon the Book of Gospels. The priest covers their hands with his stole and right hand and then says to the GROOM:
Repeat after me:
I, N., take you, N., to be my wife, and I promise to love you, to respect you, to be always faithful to you, and never to forsake you until death do us part. So help me God, one in the Holy Trinity, and all the Saints.
Then the priest says to the BRIDE:
Repeat after me:
I, N., take you, N., to be my husband, and I promise to love you, to respect you, to give you matrimonial obedience, to be always faithful to you, and never to forsake you until death do us part. So help me God, one in the Holy Trinity, and all the Saints.

 

[LightBound]

I am getting married. My fiancée and I agree that she would vow to me (love, faithfulness and) obedience/submission. We both desire it. Hovewer this seems problematic in this feministic church. What can be done about it?

We are from Poland, but can travel. Have you heard of any legal, official Catholic vows of obedience/submission of wife to her husband? In Poland we had those until 1928. I have also heard of those in an anglican diocese of Sydney.

Will you then be including something where you vow to give yourself up unto death for her and her well-being? If you are so keen on her obedience and submission that you would be willing to travel to another country just so she can say those things in your wedding vows, I would hope you will hold the other part of the Ephesians verse directed at the husband as just as important and worthy of a public statement coming from you within the wedding ceremony.

 

[Bookcat]

1. Feministic Church - yes the Church is the “bride of Christ” and “mother”. But the Church is not “feministic” in some negative way. There may be some persons in the Church who embrace a wrong kind of “feminism” - but those are those persons.
2. Regarding the “consent” which is exchanged and which is part of the very Sacrament of Marriage - there is no room for changing that form. The Church has given a few options for such - but one must choose one of those forms. One may not alter them. And a Catholic must get married according to the Church’s form if (or with a dispensation from form in terms of marrying a non-Catholic) if they want to be married.

But are is there a form of consent in the Catholic Church that includes the word “obey”? Yes there is. Where? That would be the Ordinariate created for Anglicans who were coming into full communion with the Catholic Church under Anglicanorum cœtibus. The rite there uses the word “obey” at least 2 times -including in one of the options for the consent. Such IS part of a Catholic Rite.

But I imagine such are not in Poland. And I imagine your wanting to get married in Polish not English! But no worries - the nature of marriage (in its fullness) remains the same even if one rite emphasizes an aspect that another does not emphasize. The full supernatural reality of the Sacrament remains. The Sacrifice of the Husband is not always emphasized in the rite either -but it part of marriage itself.

As one person noted above - one option if you wish to emphasize a certain aspect of Marriage - one can choose readings that do that.

1. The in common speech people use the term “wedding vows”…like they use “baptismal vows” they are not “vows” in the sense of “vows” as the term is used in religious vows or private vows.
2. English translations of the Scriptures use different words - some have “submit” others have “be subject”. Not sure what it is in Polish - would have to check (I checked briefly and it is thought the the word used there in Polish is like our “submit” -that is going on the memory of what it was in their Polish translation).

But yes in English we generally do not use the term “submission” when discussing such. That term can have a kind of negative connotation in English these days.

Also it is very important that you understand the fullness of what the Scriptures and the Church teach in this area. For some can misunderstand or take only one aspect and forget the rest or understand that aspect incorrectly. It is important to know what the Church Teaches in its fullness.

The two places in the Catholic Rite in the Ordinariate (which is yes Catholic and part of the Church -in complete union with the Successor of Peter) - that I mentioned are:

In the one of the questions of the Priest or Deacon can ask the wife-to-be - and in that question it does include in addition to other things if she will “obey him” (the man she will marry).

And in one of the forms of the actual consent she states among other beautiful things: “to love and to cherish and to obey”…

Such is part of the nature of Marriage - even if not always directly mentioned in every rite or reference. But such must of course be understood correctly according to the fullness of the rich Teachings of the Church.

 

[Sarcelle]

The two places in the Catholic Rite in the Ordinariate (which is yes Catholic and part of the Church -in complete union with the Successor of Peter) - that I mentioned are:

In the one of the questions of the Priest or Deacon can ask the wife-to-be - and in that question it does include in addition to other things if she will “obey him” (the man she will marry).

And in one of the forms of the actual consent she states among other beautiful things: “to love and to cherish and to obey”…

Such is part of the nature of Marriage - even if not always directly mentioned in every rite or reference. But such must of course be understood correctly according to the fullness of the rich Teachings of the Church.

Just curious, in marriage preparation classes, are there discussions on what the above vows mean and how it expresses itself in everyday married life? It would be nice if engaged couples discuss in full the vows they are about to say to each other and what it means in accordance with Catholic teaching, under the guidance of the priest and lay marriage counselors.

 

[Bookcat]

Just curious, in marriage preparation classes, are there discussions on what the above vows mean and how it expresses itself in everyday married life?.

I imagine like many things your “mileage will vary” from place to place and person to person…

(There is a much that one could study for years…)

 

[Xantippe]

Just curious, in marriage preparation classes, are there discussions on what the above vows mean and how it expresses itself in everyday married life? It would be nice if engaged couples discuss in full the vows they are about to say to each other and what it means in accordance with Catholic teaching, under the guidance of the priest and lay marriage counselors.

Yes.