Vow of obedience/submission of wife to her husband

[Bookcat]

Right.

I also strongly suspect that too “strong” a view of submission contributes to communication breakdowns.

And can be not in keeping with a correct full Catholic view of the matter of being “subject”…of “obeying”…

 

[Bookcat]

Also, Casti Connubii specifically says that wives are not to be treated as permanent minors.

Yip!

That is part of the correct - fuller view of the subject!

Amen.

Equal in dignity - and complimentary in their roles has husband and wife and father and mother…

The wife indeed being the “heart” of the family and the home and the beloved bride who the husband lays down his life for as Christ did.

 

[Bookcat]

Getting back to the direct subject of the thread - (see my fuller post up above forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13698264&postcount=13).

The two places in the Catholic Rite in the Ordinariate (which is yes Catholic and part of the Church -in complete union with the Successor of Peter) - that I mentioned are:

In the one of the questions of the Priest or Deacon can ask the wife-to-be - and in that question it does include in addition to other things if she will “obey him” (the man she will marry).

And in one of the forms of the actual consent she states among other beautiful things: “to love and to cherish and to obey”…

Such is part of the nature of Marriage - even if not always directly mentioned in every rite or reference. But such must of course be understood correctly according to the fullness of the rich Teachings of the Church.

As a result of the question that the OP asked about rites in the Church - I am thankful that the question was asked for it lead to my discovery that in terms of the Roman Rite that the Ordinariate has such a rite that brought out those aspects. It is always splendid to discover beautiful rites in the Church that one did not know existed (I knew of the Ordinariate but not of the details of this rite…). It has also given me a reminder to go and visit an Ordinarate Church in the near future to for Mass - I have yet to go but have it on my list of things in life…so thank you OP.

 

[STF]

Or maybe he does know what the Scriptures and Church Teaches about the matter and is just looking to find if there is a rite that expresses that part of the teaching.

Yes exactly. Thanks for the hint about the anglican ordinariate! BTW do you know how can we get married using this liturgy? We have been in latin rite and our geographical dioceses for the whole life (including all the sacraments of initiation).

When it comes to all the feminist votes above, it should be clear to you all that obedience (of wife towards her husband) is part of Catholic doctrine. If it wasn’t, the liturgical books of the Anglican Ordinariate would not have been approved!
And yes of course every husband is called to love his wife the way Christ loves the Church (Eph 5 and others) but that is not the scope of this thread.

BTW this thread and the poll clearly show how much the Church is affected by the feminist heresy today. It is a shame that this element of the doctrine is so neglected. This is a core reason for the family, fatherhood and manhood crisis today.

 

[Xantippe]

Yes exactly. Thanks for the hint about the anglican ordinariate! BTW do you know how can we get married using this liturgy? We have been in latin rite and our geographical dioceses for the whole life (including all the sacraments of initiation).

When it comes to all the feminist **votes **above, it should be clear to you all that obedience (of wife towards her husband) is part of Catholic doctrine. If it wasn’t, the liturgical books of the Anglican Ordinariate would not have been approved!
And yes of course every husband is called to love his wife the way Christ loves the Church (Eph 5 and others) but that is not the scope of this thread.

BTW this thread and the poll clearly show how much the Church is affected by the feminist heresy today. It is a shame that this element of the doctrine is so neglected. This is a core reason for the family, fatherhood and manhood crisis today.

Have you and your fiancee figured out what you mean by obedience and submission? I know Bookcat has a lot of confidence that you have a deep knowledge of Catholic teaching on marriage, but I have to say that I am not as confident.

I think you don’t know what you mean by obedience or submission, because as far as I recall, you have not addressed any of the hard cases I have mentioned.

Again, do you believe that if you were drunk, you have the right to order your wife to let you drive her and the kids?

Do you believe that when you are old and senile, your wife should let you wander around outside in the snow in your pajamas because you say that’s what you want?

Do you think you could order your wife to get a tubal ligation?

Think about it.

Obedience to legitimate authority is not unlimited–it has to have boundaries.

 

[Bookcat]

Yes exactly. Thanks for the hint about the anglican ordinariate! BTW do you know how can we get married using this liturgy? We have been in latin rite and our geographical dioceses for the whole life (including all the sacraments of initiation).

I do not think that you can. Such is for those of the Ordinariate - though you could inquire with an Ordinarate Parish (I doubt any are in Poland). Just use the Liturgy of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. The wording of a rite does not need to relay all the aspects of the Sacrament.

When it comes to all the feminist votes above, it should be clear to you all that obedience (of wife towards her husband) is part of Catholic doctrine. If it wasn’t, the liturgical books of the Anglican Ordinariate would not have been approved!
And yes of course every husband is called to love his wife the way Christ loves the Church (Eph 5 and others) but that is not the scope of this thread.

When understood as the Church understands it yes of course.

 

[STF]

Again, do you believe that if you were drunk, you have the right to order your wife to let you drive her and the kids?

If you want to discuss Catholic doctrine, I suggest you ask in another forum — Apologetics maybe? This one is about liturgy.

 

[Bookcat]

I know Bookcat has a lot of confidence that you have a deep knowledge of Catholic teaching on marriage, but I have to say that I am not as confident…

I never said I was confident regarding such. I do not know their background. I merely point them to make sure they have a good understanding of the full teaching of the Church.

The main point of the question was - is there such a rite that emphasizes certain aspects of the nature of the Sacrament.

 

[pianistclare]

OP.
Your question was answered fully within the first 5 posts.

 

[Bookcat]

OP.
Your question was answered fully within the first 5 posts.

Actually no it was not.

For there were incorrect answers…and none in those 5 answered his question.

For there IS a rite that includes the word “obey” in the Catholic Church…where as some thought there was not.

 

[Xantippe]

If you want to discuss Catholic doctrine, I suggest you ask in another forum — Apologetics maybe? This one is about liturgy.

There is a relationship between what one promises during the liturgy and doctrine.

You have shown little understanding of what you are asking your fiancee to promise you or what Catholic doctrine on marriage is, and this lack of understanding is likely to cause you a lot of grief in future.

Unless you and your fiancee understand what you mean by submission/obedience and your theory is at least somewhat workable, there is no point in making a vow that neither of you actually understands.

Even in the US military (which often gets brought up in these discussions), officers do not promise total obedience to superiors.

Here is the oath:

“I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

Note that the officer first of all swears to support and defend the Constitution and then promises to obey the President and superior officers according the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

history.army.mil/html/faq/oaths.html

The officer does not simply swear total and unquestioning obedience to superiors.