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Inego_de_Loyola
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I know that you mean nothing but the best, but remember as Paul said truth without charity is as a clanging cymbal. Lets try to step back and witness the Faith rather than preach the Faith.
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joanofarc2008
Guest
I understand one can evangelize the Gospel - but one cannot evangelize the Church without being in communion with Her. I don’t understand. I am trying to understand and yet this individual keeps making claims. There is plenty of charity here as I am asking simply how one can evangelize Sacraments without partaking of the one that is the source and the summit of all ecclesial life? If it needs to be a rhetorical question let it be a rhetorical question. But I think many more should be standing up for the Eucharist here and what it means.
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Zundrah
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By all that I have read from you thus far, I’ve just gathered that you have a problem with me. From the first of your comments directed at me you’ve mentioned nothing relevant and have been quite invasive.
The Eucharist isn’t believed to bring about your salvation, if that is what you are trying to say. As if to claim that without it you are no good. That’s what the Catechism says.
In many of our masses the priest has encouraged us to evangelize yet you here seem to be teaching us all to shut up. It is nonsensical to instruct Catholics not to tell others what the Church teaches and to point out the wrong ideas and concepts that others have on it.
This has all sprung from your original post to me;
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Zundrah
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So then, what “claims” have I made? Though I’m sure I’m wasting my time asking you. Since there wont be a real answer, rather just an idea.
I think more Catholics should evangelize but you disagree. You say only the confirmed should and absolutely no one else.
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PJM
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joanofarc2008
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The Eucharist isn’t believed to bring about Salvation - OK, on it’s own no, it’s not. It takes works as well. However, rejection of the Eucharist can be an issue unto itself that one should see their priest about.
Those that see Salvation without Baptism are those that have an “invincible ignorance” meaning that they had no opportunity to hear the message - they are what are known as “Anonymous Christians.” They are still saved through Christ without knowing Christ. The same is true of those saved without Eucharist. BTW - how do I know - I did a Masters level term paper on this very subject - Karl Rahner, Lumen Gentium, etc. I tend to come down on the side of the Inclusivist School. If you have no idea what I am talking about then it’s OK - just know there are three schools of thought on this the Exclusivist, Inclusivist, and Pluralist. It is the Inclusivist School that is the accepted one.
I will stop there as I have a feeling that I have just thoroughly confused the issue at hand. BTW - usually those in RCIA are dismissed prior to the homily. The homily was probably directed at those who are in receipt of Sacraments. My issue again is that you can probably evangelize Christianity very well and I truly believe that - but I still say one cannot evangelize Catholicism until one not only knows what it means to be Catholic but how it feels to have a loving, intimate experience with Christ. This is what the Sacraments are.
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iloveangels
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The main evangelization job that Catholics have is to evangelize other Catholics. In general, the educational status of most Catholics is in bad shape when it comes to understanding their religion. Many Catholics are very, very ignorant about their faith and about Christianity in general.
I’m glad to see that some dioceses are adopting basis catechesis series now. I think the Church in the US has finally realized how bad the situation is, and they are trying to remedy this a bit. I am thinking of things like parish seminars on the video series “Catholicism” by Fr. Barron and series like “Discovering Christ,” by Christlife.org.
I’m glad to see that some dioceses are adopting basis catechesis series now. I think the Church in the US has finally realized how bad the situation is, and they are trying to remedy this a bit. I am thinking of things like parish seminars on the video series “Catholicism” by Fr. Barron and series like “Discovering Christ,” by Christlife.org.
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Zundrah
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My priest once said exactly that.
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Zundrah
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Certainly an extension of experience leaves a wider and more detailed story to unfold to those who have no insight on it yet.
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iloveangels
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Yes, Zundrah. If he’s well-educated, then he looks at this every day and realizes how bad the situation has become. Catholics say some strange things sometimes, composites of old half-remembered stuff and sheer secular paganism. The number of Catholic people who can recount basic salvation history in an adult fashion is smaller than many people would like to think.
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iloveangels
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The problem is even more basic than this. Many Catholics just mumble partial sentences and phrases that they’ve heard, without understanding. Catholic catechesis is nearly completely absent for adults in many regions of the country.
I have heard long-standing supposedly pious cradle Catholics ask things like “Why did Christ have to die? It sounds so cruel.” And “what does religion have to do with birth control anyway?” And “why do we keep talking about Jews?” And “My parish is my Church. Rome can’t tell us what to do.” These concern very basic things. Ignorance of the very basic ideas underlying these questions should be rare. And yet it is not.
If Catholics ever want to evangelize the world, first they must understand what the Church is about. Many of them simply don’t. They think it’s just something “nice” they do. Something that they inherited and have a right to, somehow, like someone might have a right to a parking spot or a place in line at the supermarket.
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SecretGarden
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I agree and I disagree with your statement. I once attended a seminar where Reginald Bibby a Canadian sociologist was speaking. One of the most profound things he said was: “if you want to improve your church attendance, look at your old membership list.” Therefore as Catholics, I agree we seriously need to evangelize people inside our own church but we also need to look further than that. I don’t believe you have to be a confirmed Catholic to evangelize. When I was in my early stages of discerning to become a Catholic, God put me into positions where I had to defend, educate non practicing catholics and non catholics about what the church believed. Evangelization is about correcting people’s misconceptions about what we believe. It is about willing to dialogue with others our beliefs. It is about teaching our upcoming generation the truth about the Catholic faith and making it fun so that they will want to stay inside it. We also need to make it revelant for our teens who are on the verge of leaving because they find it boring.
We need to bring the gospel to people and we do it by being willing to talk about what we believe. Years before joining the Catholic church was even a potential step, a friend of mine was an active Pentecostal while I was an non-practicing Christian in general. Over the years, she witnessed to me, invited me to her young people’s activities until eventually I became active inside the Christian faith. A decade later I joined the Catholic church. We need to be willing to talk about our faith like she did, invite our friends to mass as well as other fun activities that are also occurring. I don’t believe in pushing the faith but if we are willing to dialogue, pray for the people we witness as well respect people’s beliefs, the church will grow in ways it never has before. The only way it can grow is if we are willing to go out into the world and spread the gospel. Look at what Jesus did how his ministry has transformed the world.
One of the reasons why the Evangelical and other non-Catholic churches are growing is because their members are constantly talking about the faith, inviting their friends and strangers to join them in church. We can learn some lessons from them because so often Catholics take their faith for granted and we are living in a time when we can’t. Evangelism is about going out into the world and speaking about our faith. This means it needs to happen in work, school, family etc.
In the past, priests and the religious would evangelize others through the work they do, now it is our turn to do the same.
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DebChris
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Cursillo is a lay movement that started in Spain in response to this very lack of catechesis. We need to do more than recite the Baltimore Catechism when our Faith is challenged. Cursillistas, individuals who have completed the three day course meet regularly to help each other grow spiritually, to explore the depth of our Faith. Formation is a lifelong process.
The pastor where I used to live lamented the fact that many saw Confirmation as a form of graduation rather than the Sacrament of Initiation that it is. Many parishes do recognize the need for Adult catechism and are adding programs to their activities. Bible study is offered weekly where I currently reside in the Middle East. Lectors are required to attend the monthly Enriching Our Faith program in order to more effectively proclaim God’s Word. This is the most vibrant parish to which I have belonged.
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joanofarc2008
Guest
That is very true as well. I think this why adult faith formation classes are just as important as children’s faith formation classes.
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jmcrae
Guest
We live in a generation that needs words. Everyone is kind and polite, even the atheists.
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iloveangels
Guest
I am talking about evangelizing the “old list” as you call it. Many Catholics really don’t know much of what Christianity is, or what it’s supposed to be. They know a lot of details about ashes and bowing and Marian apparitions in Portugal and Infants of Prague. But they can’t tell you what the point of the Crucifixion was about half the time, and they can’t tell you what Fatima, for instance, has to do with it.
Many of them also, likely as not, have at least one pernicious habit like birth control, that they refuse to change, because usually they haven’t been pressed on the point, think it’s their “choice” and don’t see the seriousness of it. They’re also not open to what the church teaches on it usually, and rather obviously are not having a serious prayer conversation about it, or they’d change it. Not all, of course, are engaged in this sort of thing, but a shocking number are.
Many, maybe most of them think Catholicism is their private possession to do with as they wish; they think religion is only about feeling warm and fuzzy; and they think all they really have to know is that they can get forgiven no matter what they do. They’re been told this over and over, and most people bought it to the exclusion of everything else.
Until Catholics know their religion and act like they take it seriously, they will be rather bad at evangelizing non-Catholics. You can’t give what you don’t have. We have to start inside the Church.
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iloveangels
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The problem with this statement is that people take it out of context. Catholics tend to say this when they don’t want to go out of their way to evangelize.
Do you know that most people in an average workplace don’t even know who the Catholics in the group are? How can you possibly evangelize for the Church if no one knows you’re Catholic???
If you go along with the flow, what is the conclusion others have every right to draw??? Is that evangelizing??? Exactly for who or what is that evangelizing???
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Zundrah
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bump …?
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nickybr38
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You know… the first time I read this comment I didn’t notice all the question marks. Were they there from the start?
Heh. Anyway, I’m pretty vocal about my beliefs. For example, and I know this may not be considered ‘correct’, but I have warned my coworkers that I’m fasting tomorrow so they know why I’m all grumpy when I come in. I can’t help it! When I’m without food I get irritable.
I also openly talk about things I get excited for at Church. Like the Talent Show, or Lent, or Christmas, or whatever!
I know people say we shouldn’t be like I am. We shouldn’t go around broadcasting these things but it’s part of who I am so why should I hide it? That’s kind of how I look at things.
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blueadept
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Since I’ve been teaching 6th grade CCD for 7 years and RCIA for 3 years, I’ve definitely seen some disturbing trends. When I started teaching my students, approximately 80% attended Mass regularly where that has dropped to 20% for me today. Therefore, I’ve felt a need to cover the Gospel in my weekly classes. Many (most) of these students never get to Confirmation (as a junior in High School) since they drop out once in high school (usually with parents permission). The ones that participate in the high school ministry tend to be awesome but that doesn’t help those that are given the option not to go. So how do we re-catechise the parents? I’ve tried sending material home for the kids to share but that seems to be a waste.
I’ve done door-to-door evangelization through the Legion. It has been a positive experience. I also love the RCIA/Investigator programs we have in our parish. A very positive approach.
My daughter will be doing a 10-month missionary assignment in either Washington DC or K.C, Missouri with a lay evangelization missionary called “A Simple House”. Their website is www.asimplehouse.org. So while I’m happy with my children’s faith, the present style of catechesis needs to be desperately addressed and somehow needs to start in our Catholic homes.
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