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ishii
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Where in the US is it legal to work someone “like a slave”? In fact, what exactly do you mean by that phrase, “work like a slave” ?
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Jeanne_S
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My main gripe about union based businesses,wether it be the teachers’ union or the countless others operating throughout the country,is the mediocrity of work both in quality and ethic.Unions" provide job security,guarantee of wage increases,benefits,oftentimes when the employee does precious little to warrant them.My daughter works for a large insurance company in one of their ob/gym clinics.She is one of a half dozenRN’s working,however,she is one of the few who actually does her job.There is a mid fifties RN with seniority,who basic ally does close to nothing all day,gripes and complains.She is not a team worker.Yet,she gets the same raise,same every year as do the other RN’s.Actual performance means nothing,and she takes advantage of this fact.This,to me ,is reflective of most union based businesses,I believe it oftentimes encourages and rewards laziness.
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ishii
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Unfortunately, you are correct. And we can see this on display in our education system. Lots of good teachers, but that’s in spite of the teacher’s unions.My main gripe about union based businesses,wether it be the teachers’ union or the countless others operating throughout the country,is the mediocrity of work both in quality and ethic.Unions" provide job security,guarantee of wage increases,benefits,oftentimes when the employee does precious little to warrant them.My daughter works for a large insurance company in one of their ob/gym clinics.She is one of a half dozenRN’s working,however,she is one of the few who actually does her job.There is a mid fifties RN with seniority,who basic ally does close to nothing all day,gripes and complains.She is not a team worker.Yet,she gets the same raise,same every year as do the other RN’s.Actual performance means nothing,and she takes advantage of this fact.This,to me ,is reflective of most union based businesses,I believe it oftentimes encourages and rewards laziness.
Ishii
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Aramis
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The IBEW up here is almost always recruiting… Same with the Plumbers and Steamfitters. In both cases, the barrier to entry is completion of training, and they provide that with little charge. And that barrier is a matter of public safety, to boot. It is a case of the profession itself governing the profession more efficiently than the state, and ensuring state mandates for competence are met.
The AMA isn’t actually the governing body of entry to the medical profession in many states - state medical boards are.
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RyanBlack
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Yes, it is the case that the presence of a union can provide cover for employees who are incompetent, lazy, or both. This doen’t mean that management is helpless and can’t do anything about it. What it does mean is that they can’t be lazy, slopply, or abritary in how they discipline employees. Rather, they actually have to show cause for why an employee should be disciplined, or even terminated. I really don’t see what is so unreasonable about this, and I don’t understand why some people have such a hard time believing that management is sometimes lazy, or incompetent, or prone to playing favorites.My main gripe about union based businesses,wether it be the teachers’ union or the countless others operating throughout the country,is the mediocrity of work both in quality and ethic.Unions" provide job security,guarantee of wage increases,benefits,oftentimes when the employee does precious little to warrant them.My daughter works for a large insurance company in one of their ob/gym clinics.She is one of a half dozenRN’s working,however,she is one of the few who actually does her job.There is a mid fifties RN with seniority,who basic ally does close to nothing all day,gripes and complains.She is not a team worker.Yet,she gets the same raise,same every year as do the other RN’s.Actual performance means nothing,and she takes advantage of this fact.This,to me ,is reflective of most union based businesses,I believe it oftentimes encourages and rewards laziness.
I have worked in a union shop before, and I’ve seen it all. I saw employees (union and non-union alike) who deserved to be fired and weren’t–sometimes it was due to taking advantage of union representation, sometimes it was due to knowing how to do just enough not to warrant attention in a workplace with several hundred employees, sometimes it was due to being friends with the right people in management, and sometimes it was due to nothing other than incompetence and/or laziness on the part of management. I also saw employees (union and non-union alike) who deserved to be fired and actually were, in spite of union representation. In such cases, they got fired either because their offenses were so serious that even a fool could see they deserved to be fired, or because the manager making the termination decision actually did his or her job in demonstrating that the termination was warranted. I’ve also seem employees who were targeted by unscrupulous managers, sometimes to the point of being unfairly disciplined, or even terminated. In such cases, sometimes union efforts resulted in people getting their jobs back, and sometimes not.
On th whole, it seems to me that unions largely exist to keep management honest. The relationship between employer and employee is one that is generally not a relationship between equals. In most cases, the reality of economics dictates that the employer is the more powerful party in the relationship. Unions serve as a check on the power of the employer. Does that sometimes create a new set of problems? Of course, unions are made up of people who are sinful. Of course, if it were not for the fact that the people who run companies are also sinful, there would be no need for unions.
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Seeker1961
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Good post. If you want unions to go away, treat your workers as you would wish to be treated. Seems reasonable enough.
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stinkcat_14
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And the barrier to entry is to go through the union and they would of course never think of raising the requirements artificially high to keep their wages higher, now would they?
When members of a profession say they are doing something for public safety you can rest assured that the motive is their own pecuniary benefits.
The AMA does have a disparate influence on who gets to practice medicine.
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Mrs_Sally
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I agree. I worked as management in a union business for many years. I had both union memebers and non-union contractors reporting to me at different times and both at the same time also.
In both situations I had excellent, hard-working, smart people and people who were merely average and one or two who were lazy and stupid. I had forms to fill out for each one of them each year reviewing their work (and other forms for when one of them did something that needed to be “written up”). As an employee I also had to be reviewed and had regular meetings with my boss about my own work.
As management, I worked 12 hour days, 6 days a week when the union went on strike. I also had to know where my team was (some walked, some crossed, one smart woman went on vacation.
)I have absolutely no problems with unions. As RyanBlack said, the worst problem is that every one I worked with was a sinner. As I am myself. There were times when people were petty and stupid, lazy, or unmotivated, but there were other times and other people who were hard-working, eager to learn and get ahead, judicious, and helpful. I focused more on the later people and situations. And I learned, as any good manager should, to make my requests clear, to check on status, and to keep track of my employees and my projects. Then if I had to write someone up, I had the information I needed. Usually I found that making my expectations clear and regular status checks got the work done as it should be.
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RyanBlack
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There’s one other thing that needs to be pointed out with respect to the issue of unions and the protection of lazy or incompetent employees. If, in any given case, a local union refuses to aid an employee who is being written up or terminated, that employee could decide to take legal action against the union. Also, it can lead to accusations that the union itself is playing favorites (which, no doubt, does in some cases, actually happen). For these reasons, when I was a shop steward, we made a good faith effort to represent every employee who asked for help, including those who were non-union and those who really did deserve to be written-up or fired. What would typically happen, is that the company would still take whatever action they had already decided upon. Only in those cases where we truly believed that there was a case to be made against management would we proceed to arbitration.
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Jimmygill88
Guest
Unfortunately that is an example of an employer not doing their job correctly rather than an example of bad Union practiceMy main gripe about union based businesses,wether it be the teachers’ union or the countless others operating throughout the country,is the mediocrity of work both in quality and ethic.Unions" provide job security,guarantee of wage increases,benefits,oftentimes when the employee does precious little to warrant them.My daughter works for a large insurance company in one of their ob/gym clinics.She is one of a half dozenRN’s working,however,she is one of the few who actually does her job.There is a mid fifties RN with seniority,who basic ally does close to nothing all day,gripes and complains.She is not a team worker.Yet,she gets the same raise,same every year as do the other RN’s.Actual performance means nothing,and she takes advantage of this fact.This,to me ,is reflective of most union based businesses,I believe it oftentimes encourages and rewards laziness.
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Jeanne_S
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Not sure what you mean by that.
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gamewell45
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One thing that’s important for us all to remember in most cases is that the employer is the one who hires the employee; not the union. The union has a legal obligation to represent the member when and if it comes to an issue under the contract. Therefore its the employer who hires the employee who “deserves to be fired” in the first place. If they did their jobs properly during the hiring process, then I daresay you’d have fewer "bad’ employees in the workplace to start out with and you’d most likely have fewer workplace issues.
And yes, any employee can be terminated from employment for just cause under almost any contract as long as the company can prove its case. Just that in many cases, the company does not document or does sloppy work regarding the employee and at the arbitration hearing it all comes out.
At my company, we have very few union-management/employee issues, because the vetting process of potential employees is very drawn out and through. No one is hired without a extensive investigation.
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april32010
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wnyc.org/articles/wnyc-news/2011/mar/21/100-years-later-remembering-triangle-shirtwaist-factory-fire/ little over 100 years later,as long as we can get a deal on a pack of tube socks. triangle shirtwaist fire was 146 dead only 34 more than the fire saturday night .
triangle shirtwaist fire was 146 dead only 34 more than the fire saturday night .
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pnewton
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Actually, I think this speaks well of Walmart, that they are willing to hold business they buy from to higher safety standards or they quit buying from them.
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april32010
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SuperLuigi
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Why? so more people can get laid off?
The problem here is that people are willing to shop during those hours just like they are on a Sunday.
Drop the political vendetta and just stay home on Black Friday.
That’s what I do. I’m no fan of having people work ridiculous hours like that.
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SuperLuigi
Guest
That is exactly why we need market discipline. With government picking winners and losers, people who know they will win don’t have much incentive to care.
Persons with disabilities can do certain jobs with reasonable accommodation.
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