War on Catholic Teaching

[MariaTS]

Well, this is great news Maria! I commend you for a difficult choice. It also seems that a life of celibacy has chosen you.

Given this, I am mystified why some people have objections to you serving in ministry? Do they not realize you have chosen to obey God’s commandments, in spite of your personal inclinations?

this is a personal question, but I wonder if I misunderstood your statement that you are “transsexual”. This term is used for those who have had surgery (or are planning to) to alter their sex.

Celibacy has chosen me? That was a very good statement, I’ll have to write that down.

People have objections because they want something to complain about. At least that’s all I can derive from this.

First of all, fixed. Second of all, Transsexual implies anyone whose sex does not match their gender. I have undergone Castration but do not intend to undergo full Sex Reassignment Surgery.

 

[MariaTS]

God also recognizes greater and lesser (degrees) of sin.

Some mortal sins are more grave than others.

However, all sinners who have not repented and chosen to live according to Christ’s teaching are going to the same place.

 

[guanophore]

Just because I believe this does not mean this is what I teach. I choose to stay away from discussing sexual morality with children since most of them are too young to be taught anything on such matters.

Thisi s very wise. However, could you understand how some people would expect that your values might be reflected in your interactions?

 I am not an affront to Catholic teaching, Catholic morality, or God. Try again sir.

That all depends. Any of us can become a stumbling block by failing to live according to God’s commandments.

Yes, marriage is between a man and a woman. This is all that scripture says on this. Just because it does not address something does not mean what it neglected to address is immoral.

Actually no, that is not all scripture says. I recommend JP II’s theology of the Body.

Human sexuality is addressed, and so are many immoral expressions of it.

 

[guanophore]

 you no doubt have serious medical issues. And if I may be so bold, you no doubt have serious psycological issues that accompany those medical issues.

This is not necessarily true. Having disabilities and differences in anatomy is not a 'disease", nor does it necesasrily create medical problems. Persons who are born differently abled do not necessarily have psychological problems, either. If they do, it has as much to do with how society reacts to them than their condition itself.

You should try to understand the other peoples' viewpoint though: People are very protective of their children and can get very disturbed if any sexual.. ..err.. .."anomoly", were around their children. You may want to consider giving up youth ministry out of consideration for others. That may not seem fair to you, and maybe its not, but it could be the right thing to do anyway.

I think it would also be beneficial to define oneself as one is in the sight of God, rather than by one’s sexual organs and orientation.

 

[MariaTS]

This is not necessarily true. Having disabilities and differences in anatomy is not a 'disease", nor does it necesasrily create medical problems. Persons who are born differently abled do not necessarily have psychological problems, either. If they do, it has as much to do with how society reacts to them than their condition itself.

I think it would also be beneficial to define oneself as one is in the sight of God, rather than by one’s sexual organs and orientation.

I agree with this statement on disability.

Please do not quote something as me saying it when I have not said that. Also, I do define myself as I am in the sight of God. God views me as what I identify myself as. Please, do not pretend that sexual orientation and gender identity are the same thing.

 

[Betterave]

That surgery changes physical sex, not gender. Gender is between the ears, sex is between the legs.

Are you saying this is your opinion and you simply don’t care about Church teaching to the contrary? Or do you believe this is church teaching?

 

[Betterave]

Also, I do define myself as I am in the sight of God. God views me as what I identify myself as.

Wow! Do you know what *hubris *is, Maria, or just plain old pride? Have you ever reflected on the meaning of the story of the Fall? What do you think it’s about?

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

I should have specified. I am not starting a war on Catholic Teaching, I am stating what people believe I am doing…

With all due respect:

Despite the good positions you have on many issues, it is fair for people to think you are starting a war on Catholic Teaching when you openly say that you think same-sex unions are okay and that abortions can be acceptable under certain conditions. Those positions are absolutely unaceeptable, and the fact that you are in a position to teach young people only compounds the problem.

 

[MariaTS]

Are you saying this is your opinion and you simply don’t care about Church teaching to the contrary? Or do you believe this is church teaching?

That is not an opinion, it is a fact backed up by medical science. There is no church teaching to the contrary.

 

[ljubim]

Hello again Maria:wave:

I still think that it is wrong for people to be so cruel to you. But disagreement with your positions on things, in a non-threatening way, is perfectly ok, especially when you have such an influence over young people.

I still don’t understand… are you a hermaphrodite? Or were you a physically born man who is womanly, and was castrated, and now has a boyfriend? If it’s number one, it seems that you’re in the right. But if you’re number two, this is against Church teaching… so the objections are valid.

Since I’m only 4 days from being 18:yyeess:, and being involved in religious ed for a long time, I would have objections to somebody who is firmly against Church teaching… teaching me Church teaching.(It just doesn’t make sense) Not just your positions (I’m pro-life BUT, homosexuality, etc) but any positions which are against the Church (promiscuity, pro-birth control, pro-condom, that sort of thing.)

Have you confessed (assuming you’re not a hermaphrodite) the self-mutilation of castration? Because it’s a rejection of how God has made you. Of course He still loves you dearly, but this is a serious crime against Him.

Remember, Church teaching is here for a reason. Many times our own judgement FAILS miserably. We think we’re right, we think we know about God and Jesus, but we’re wrong. The Church is here to guide us, and we must rely on her, as our own senses fail us. (Speaking from personal experience… The Church has the answers when our own personal spirituality can only get us so far.) In no way can we deny the gift that Christ gave us. We can deny individual sinners that belong to the Church (like the bishop who sold indulgences and made Luther angry, and the priests whose homosexual tendencies drove them to rape innocent children) but we can never deny the Church as a whole and its teachings.

God Bless,
Ljubim

*Just a note… there’s only 2 congenital heart conditions where the mother has a viable risk of death: Eisenmenger syndrome, and types of Marfan syndrome that involve the aeorta (sp??). Still, the risk of death in childbirth is under 50%. And being that the risk of maternal death is so high ONLY in actual childbirth, the immense and horrifying side effects of abortion (not even to mention the loss of your baby) are far less than having a preemie c-section.
Medically, your little opinion bites the dust.
Abortion to save the mothers life is a very well crafted LIE. Perhaps it’s in line with the Republican party, but not in line with Catholic teaching.

**Another note: Please really listen to what I’m saying… don’t just pick out parts that offend you and go after my head. I’m not trying to condemn you, I’m trying to help you see the Truth.

 

[MariaTS]

Wow! Do you know what *hubris *is, Maria, or just plain old pride? Have you ever reflected on the meaning of the story of the Fall? What do you think it’s about?

God created me as who I am, I should not identify differently. I identify as God identifies me.

 

[MariaTS]

With all due respect:

Despite the good positions you have on many issues, it is fair for people to think you are starting a war on Catholic Teaching when you openly say that you think same-sex unions are okay and that abortions can be acceptable under certain conditions. Those positions are absolutely unaceeptable, and the fact that you are in a position to teach young people only compounds the problem.

What don’t you get?

I don’t teach anything on sexual morality or sexuality to young children. I also do not teach anything on abortions to children. They are too young to understand any of it no matter if it were church teaching or my beliefs. I would discuss this if the children were older but I would be way out of line to discuss such things with young children. Also, I would emphasize the current church teaching and state other opinions that people have had. I would not have a problem discussing my opinions but I would steer them towards the current church teaching.

 

[MariaTS]

Hello again Maria:wave:

I still think that it is wrong for people to be so cruel to you. But disagreement with your positions on things, in a non-threatening way, is perfectly okay, especially when you have such an influence over young people.

I still don’t understand… are you a hermaphrodite? Or were you a physically born man who is womanly, and was castrated, and now has a boyfriend? If it’s number one, it seems that you’re in the right. But if you’re number two, this is against Church teaching… so the objections are valid.

Since I’m only 4 days from being 18:yyeess:, and being involved in religious ed for a long time, I would have objections to somebody who is firmly against Church teaching… teaching me Church teaching.(It just doesn’t make sense) Not just your positions (I’m pro-life BUT, homosexuality, etc) but any positions which are against the Church (promiscuity, pro-birth control, pro-condom, that sort of thing.)

Have you confessed (assuming you’re not a hermaphrodite) the self-mutilation of castration? Because it’s a rejection of how God has made you. Of course He still loves you dearly, but this is a serious crime against Him.

Remember, Church teaching is here for a reason. Many times our own judgment FAILS miserably. We think we’re right, we think we know about God and Jesus, but we’re wrong. The Church is here to guide us, and we must rely on her, as our own senses fail us. (Speaking from personal experience… The Church has the answers when our own personal spirituality can only get us so far.) In no way can we deny the gift that Christ gave us. We can deny individual sinners that belong to the Church (like the bishop who sold indulgences and made Luther angry, and the priests whose homosexual tendencies drove them to rape innocent children) but we can never deny the Church as a whole and its teachings.

I would never, especially in a position of trust, pressure young children to accept my beliefs nor would I discuss anything related to sex or sexuality. They disagree with me when there is nothing to disagree with it. And they don’t do it peacefully, they do it violently.

I was physically born a woman with male genitalia and chromosomes. Also, I was not just castrated so that proper feminization could take place there were also many other medical reasons for it. I have also retained my penis because that is most likely what God wants me to do. Also, how is it immoral for me to have a boyfriend when we do not engage in intercourse? We are in a celibate and mutually loving relationship, there is absolutely nothing immoral about that. Also, my boyfriend is entirely heterosexual. No homosexual male would want to be with someone who is an average girl for the most part. No part of my relationship with my boyfriend is against church teaching.

I do not support promiscuity or birth control. I do not support condoms but I support necessary medical supplies being made out of the plastics that are wasted on condoms. I am not against church teaching, there are only two objections to church teaching. Since I do not teach sex or sexuality to young children these objections are never discussed.

I will not repent for undergoing a procedure that was a medical necessity. God would not be opposed to me undergoing a life-saving procedure would he? So is scoliosis fusion surgery also going against God? I mean God did create me with scoliosis. However, my lungs and heart were being crushed and I would suffer for three months and then die without scoliosis fusion surgery. I would have also suffered for a short period of time and then die without castration. Undergoing a necessary medical procedure or service is not a crime or a sin against god.

I know about God and Jesus because I read the Bible and take it as a whole document, not in bits and shards. The current church guidelines were most likely handed down by Jesus but they have also been corrupted by the hands of man. Bishops in our church shielded and defended child molesting Priests even the Holy See, the Vatican, defended them. This is a major error within our church leadership and ergo demonstrates that our leadership must change and our rules for shielding any who enter a Church or Monastery must change.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Are you saying this is your opinion and you simply don’t care about Church teaching to the contrary? Or do you believe this is church teaching?

It’s scientific fact. Look up sex in the dictionary and look up gender in the dictionary. The brain and the body are not always congruent with eachother.

 

[ljubim]

I would never, especially in a position of trust, pressure young children to accept my beliefs nor would I discuss anything related to sex or sexuality. They disagree with me when there is nothing to disagree with it. And they don’t do it peacefully, they do it violently.

I was physically born a woman with male genitalia and chromosomes. Also, I was not just castrated so that proper feminization could take place there were also many other medical reasons for it. I have also retained my penis because that is most likely what God wants me to do. Also, how is it immoral for me to have a boyfriend when we do not engage in intercourse? We are in a celibate and mutually loving relationship, there is absolutely nothing immoral about that. Also, my boyfriend is entirely heterosexual. No homosexual male would want to be with someone who is an average girl for the most part. No part of my relationship with my boyfriend is against church teaching.

I do not support promiscuity or birth control. I do not support condoms but I support necessary medical supplies being made out of the plastics that are wasted on condoms. I am not against church teaching, there are only two objections to church teaching. Since I do not teach sex or sexuality to young children these objections are never discussed.

I will not repent for undergoing a procedure that was a medical necessity. God would not be opposed to me undergoing a life-saving procedure would he? So is scoliosis fusion surgery also going against God? I mean God did create me with scoliosis. However, my lungs and heart were being crushed and I would suffer for three months and then die without scoliosis fusion surgery. I would have also suffered for a short period of time and then die without castration. Undergoing a necessary medical procedure or service is not a crime or a sin against god.

I know about God and Jesus because I read the Bible and take it as a whole document, not in bits and shards. The current church guidelines were most likely handed down by Jesus but they have also been corrupted by the hands of man. Bishops in our church shielded and defended child molesting Priests even the Holy See, the Vatican, defended them. This is a major error within our church leadership and ergo demonstrates that our leadership must change and our rules for shielding any who enter a Church or Monastery must change.

Ok! I think I understand now. First off I think you’ve been horribly misunderstood on this thread… probably because you said, transsexual, rather than hermaphrodite. (Also I assumed that you were more of a homosexual man when I said that having a boyfriend was an issue… again I think there’s been poor communication on both sides here)

I didn’t mean you taught promiscuity Just examples of any other positions on Church teachings I would also object to being held by teachers.

A lot of what you’ve said before is making sense. You’re in my prayers, you have a very difficult cross to bear.

Now with that aside… if you’re very vocal in your views about abortion and homosexuality, then it’s understandable why parents don’t want you as a teacher… since you won’t be just a teacher, but a role model, and as the kids get older such topics could come up. But what is silly is that all things aside, there are so many other Catholics who are even pro-choice… and people turn a blind eye. I think they misunderstand… hear one word and go crazy. (Much like is happening on this forum.)

I am very sorry that the parishioners aren’t listening to their priests. Their violence is disgraceful! I cannot even imagine… :console:

If I were you, I’d pray about the 1% of abortions and homosexuality, and even if you feel the same way, then promise (maybe a letter to parents?) that you will not so much as present your point of view (as you said earlier you might) but rather be a vessel to promote Catholic teaching. I trust that you do love God too and yes, we are all sinners. But something you said before bothered me… that we all live in mortal sin. But that’s not true, we confess it and are seriously repentant. I was in mortal sin for maybe two, three years… and let me tell you, what they say about being in a state of grace and receiving the Eucharist is true! It’s so important to be as sinless as possible… that way we can better hear what God is telling us. Like literally, it was like He gave me a list of things He wanted me to do now that I’ve “come back.” And I understand a lot of Church teachings better… enough to look into the opposition, such as the thing with mother’s health and abortion.

Wow that was long… Just I’m concerned with the way this thread was going. Unless it’s an angry Mary-hater or angry atheist, putting the OP on defense so much is a bit rude. But still, now we understand better (after calming down and actually talking… rather than judging without knowing the whole story.)

Love, Ljubim

But summary… blatant honesty: your views on abortion, and homosexual marriage are against Church teaching. The people who are violent towards you are also against Church teaching(and should listen to the priest!). Your condition isn’t wrong… it’s how God made you. Just PLEASE don’t say transsexual… I think that one word ignited this whole forum. And regular confession=state of grace=awesome:thumbsup:

 

[ljubim]

It’s scientific fact. Look up sex in the dictionary and look up gender in the dictionary. The brain and the body are not always congruent with eachother.

Like hermaphrodites.
NOT homosexuals.

Pax, guys, pax!! This thread is getting ugly. We’re really misunderstanding Maria here… she’s not a homosexual, she’s a hermaphrodite. Yes, she holds opinions contrary to Church teaching…
That is what we should be focusing on!

 

[guanophore]

I do define myself as I am in the sight of God. God views me as what I identify myself as.

I am sure that God is aware that you are defining yourself as transexual and bisexual.

What I was suggesting is that you apply a more biblical and eternal sense of identity to yourself. Both of these descriptions will apply to you only so long as you are in this body, and will not be part of your eternal identity. Therefore, they are limiting so far as self image and self esteem are concerned.

Please, do not pretend that sexual orientation and gender identity are the same thing.

How did I do that?

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

…I don’t teach anything on sexual morality or sexuality to young children. I also do not teach anything on abortions to children. They are too young to understand any of it no matter if it were church teaching or my beliefs. I would discuss this if the children were older but I would be way out of line to discuss such things with young children. Also, I would emphasize the current church teaching and state other opinions that people have had. I would not have a problem discussing my opinions but I would steer them towards the current church teaching.

Well, if you DID happen to teach, and you were able to keep your personal beliefs to yourself and you taught only what the Church STRICTLY teaches (on abortion, same-sex marriage, etc.) then you would be an extraordinary person indeed. I would commend such a person. Even in the news, people who claim to be “objective” reporters still skew their reports in favor of their own personal bias. Totally removing personal bias from teaching - or reporting - is a lofty goal most people cannot live up to.

But I STILL can’t help but wonder: Since you apparently DO know Church teaching on these matters, why do you reject those teachings? It is not the place of a Catholic to reject doctrines taught by the Magisterium.

 

[po18guy]

I have decided to remain a Catholic after aspects of the Church that I go to changed. And as such, I have also remained a Catholic Youth Minister. Many parents are now angry that I have chosen to remain as a Youth Minister within this Church. They believe that I threaten “True Catholic Teaching” and that I am part of the “Demonic Army” to “overthrow” the Catholic Church. I have gotten several threatening emails, letters, and phone calls and I have decided to ask that these individuals be removed from the Church. If they want to attack or threaten me then they can simply find another church. I appreciate that the Priests in the Church have taken my side and are now defending me. I believe that the true threat to the Catholic Church and the true enemies of Catholic Teaching are those who are intolerant and forget Jesus teaching. The war over the Catholic Church has been taking place for as long as it has existed. I hope that we win the spiritual battle against the fundamentalists who are dangerous to the well-being of the Catholic Church and have continuously destabilized and divided the Catholic Church. Only when the fundamentalists are no longer in our church can we truly be unified as one holy mother church. The fundamentalists are just like the pharisees. We need to get our feet in the ground to defend the Catholic Church. We shall not let it fall to extremists, fundamentalists, and violent criminals. I may be repeating myself but I want to know what are your thoughts on the spiritual war between the fundamentalist Catholics and the true Catholics?

What are the specific accusations against you? And, just who are these "fundamentalists, and what do they believe, in your opinion?

 

[guanophore]

God created me as who I am, I should not identify differently. I identify as God identifies me.

Well, yes and no. We are created in the image and likeness of God, but that image has been marred by the Fall. The disabilities, grave disorders, and sinful nature of man is not part of God’s creation.

The descriptions you gave of yourself are not part of how Scripture identifies Christians. I was suggesting that you conisder some of those.

What don’t you get?

I don’t teach anything on sexual morality or sexuality to young children. I also do not teach anything on abortions to children. They are too young to understand any of it no matter if it were church teaching or my beliefs. I would discuss this if the children were older but I would be way out of line to discuss such things with young children. Also, I would emphasize the current church teaching and state other opinions that people have had. I would not have a problem discussing my opinions but I would steer them towards the current church teaching.

It is a relief to know that you are not pandering anti-Catholic ideas to children in your capacity as a youth minister. I am curious why your parents are objecting to you being a youth minister, this being the case. If you answered this, can you point me to the post?

Your last line here is the one I find most problematic. In your role as a youth minister, to discuss your opinions when they are opposite of Church teaching is definitely problematic. If you did this as a private person, no problem, but doing so in your role as a provider in the parish is not right.

They disagree with me when there is nothing to disagree with it. And they don't do it peacefully, they do it violently.

Of course there is stuff to disagree with! You espouse anti-Catholic beliefs!

However, I agree, they don’t have to get violent. Clearly you are a sign of contradiction to others, and people are frightened of you because you are different.

I was physically born a woman with male genitalia and chromosomes. Also, I was not just castrated so that proper feminization could take place there were also many other medical reasons for it. I have also retained my penis because that is most likely what God wants me to do.

This is a most interesting statement, but seems too private to explore on a public forum.

Also, how is it immoral for me to have a boyfriend when we do not engage in intercourse?

You are apparently called to a celibate life. Those called to this life are to be eunuchs for the Kingdom of God. That means that they put aside romantic and intimate relationships with others and make Christ their spouse (or His Body, the Church).

We are in a celibate and mutually loving relationship, there is absolutely nothing immoral about that.

It possibly provides a public scandal, which is inflammatory to the community. I think Paul’s teaching on expediency might be useful in this regard.

Also, my boyfriend is entirely heterosexual. No homosexual male would want to be with someone who is an average girl for the most part. No part of my relationship with my boyfriend is against church teaching.

It is clear that you do not understand the Church teaching on chastity. There is a great link here at CAF you can follow.

I am not against church teaching, there are only two objections to church teaching. Since I do not teach sex or sexuality to young children these objections are never discussed.

You are in a bad spot, since the expectations of leaders are that they be beyond reproach. to those whom much is given, much is required.