Warning about ACORN-like groups

[Mimi]

In our state there are now these “communtiy organizations”:
MICAH
JOB
ESTHER
AMOS
JONAH
JOSHUA

All these are under the parent group the Gamaliel Foundation; founder: Saul Alinsky.
gamaliel.org/default.htm

Alinsky wrote the book, Rules for Radicals.
protest.net/activists_handbook/countering.html

Check out the groups in your state at the web site and what their goals and underlying philosophy is.

Is your parish involved in this?

Do you think their motives and values are compatible with Catholic teaching?

I have serious doubts and concerns about getting involved and would like some serious discussion on this forum.

Mimi

 

[Apryl]

All these are under the parent group the Gamaliel Foundation; founder: Saul Alinsky.
gamaliel.org/default.htm

I don’t know where you are getting your information… or what your point is, but Saul Alinsky is not the founder of the Gamaliel Foundation. Your subject line says ‘ACORN like’… what’s wrong with ACORN (in your opinion)? Why do you think these are ACORN like?

There are many churches (Catholic, included) that work with these organizations.

They work with a lot of people.

What is the problem that you suggest that they offer?

Rather than just tossing rocks over a wall, could you at least do us the courtesy of saying ‘they to this’ or ‘they promote that’?

You state you have doubts… what is it that you doubt? Or what is it that you are not comfortable with that you think they are part of?

I find it rather interesting that your subject line says ACORN like, but you didn’t list any ACORN group. Makes me suspect of you.

 

[Brian_Keith]

What in the world is an ACORN group?

 

[Dale_M]

I have serious doubts and concerns about getting involved

Who is asking you to get involved?

 

[Mimi]

I thank you all for responding.

I admit I was doing a bit of “fishing” to see if there would be any kind of response and if anyone else’s radar was going off about these groups.

gamaliel.org/Foundation/history.htm
History of the Movement: This type of community organizing began in Chicago in 1938. Saul Alinsky created the “Back of the Yards Community Council”. The organization operated in the shadow of Chicago’s stock yards. The community was beset with poverty, political corruption, gangs, disease, deteriorating housing and inadequate schools; but most of all it was beset with a sense of powerlessness. The organization successfully engaged people to change the conditions of the community. Its motto was, “We shall decide our own destiny…”

Alinsky was the author of Rules for Radicals; the Obama campaign followed this plan, and apparently was extremely successful. We know that Obama is The Most politically left president we have had. His promise to enact the Freedom of Choice Act is one proof.

tysknews.com/Articles/dnc_corruption.htm
Saul Alinsky and DNC Corruption
snip:
The failure of Republicans to impose the rule of law on the cheaters, liars and manipulators allows those who use Alinsky’s corrupt system to win. That fact tells us that the voting process means as little to our elites as does the Constitution.

Because of that fact, Republicans will lose future elections. More importantly, the people of the United States will lose.

This was written in '03, and look what has come to pass.

Read their materials, then compare with Catholic teaching and thought. They are against the middle class and the "Radical religious right" -- that would be 
US (the Church) since we are "anti-choice". They are anti-capitalist also. They are about building a power base, not helping people using and spreading the Gospel.

Read Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger's paper, (an excerpt), *Relativism: the Central Problem for Faith Today*
[ewtn.com/library/CURIA/RATZRELA.HTM](http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/RATZRELA.HTM)
snippet:
The fall of the European governmental systems based on Marxism turned out to 
be a kind of twilight of the gods for that theology of redeeming political 
praxis. Precisely in those places where the Marxist liberating ideology had been applied consistently, a radical lack of freedom had been produced, the 
horror of which now appeared out in the open before the eyes of world public opinion. *The fact is that when politics want to bring redemption, they promise too 
much. When they presume to do God's work, they do not become divine but diabolical*. (emphasis mine)

It is clear to me, anyway, that these groups promote a type of Liberation Theology. Why start up new groups when there are hundreds, if not thousands, to get involved with and donate to? Caritas, a worldwide organization, distributes food and clothing to the needs. Many churches have prison ministries and food banks, etc. St. Vincent de Paul, the Salvation Army, the list is practically endless.

AGAIN I ASK – WHY START THIS UP WHEN THERE ARE ALREADY SO MANY GOOD AND WORHTY GROUPS IN PLACE DOING THIS WORK?

I have an answer and it is disturbing and should jar your spirit too.
Please – pray, read, think about this and come back to this forum to discuss.

God bless,
Mimi

 

[Mimi]

Who is asking you to get involved?

Our priest.



Mimi

 

[Mimi]

What in the world is an ACORN group?

This is the group Obama was involved in; donated a lot of money to and which helped him get elected.

He himself got started in Chicago as a “community organizer”.

If you’d been watching the O’Reilly Factor before the election and listening to some talk radio shows, you’d know. Please read up on it and join in the discussion.

Mimi

 

[Mimi]

I don’t know where you are getting your information… or what your point is, but Saul Alinsky is not the founder of the Gamaliel Foundation. Your subject line says ‘ACORN like’… what’s wrong with ACORN (in your opinion)? Why do you think these are ACORN like?

There are many churches (Catholic, included) that work with these organizations.

I find it rather interesting that your subject line says ACORN like, but you didn’t list any ACORN group. Makes me suspect of you.

I listed ACORN as a sort of hook to get people to read.

All the groups I listed in my original post are under the Gamaliel Foundation. It says so on their web sites.

It bothers me that so many churches are climbing on this bandwagon without investigation and a background check.

Our parish is being asked to fork over $1,000.00 which we do not have. Thank God, the bad weather has postponed the next meeting for another week!

I am not the only one in my area who has concerns about the true objective of JOB and the other groups. I am trying to educate people, get them to think and read and not become members (unless you want to attend meetings to use their tactics against them; i.e., infiltrate, gather info, challenge, etc.).

Mimi

 

[Lujack]

Two things:

1. Gathering information as a mole is pretty dishonest, especially for a group that is in good standing with the Federal government.
2. ACORN is being portrayed as a mafia-type organization, when in reality they were the victims, not the perpetrators, of fraud. If you listened to the line on shows like the O’Reilly Factor, ACORN embarked on a “vote early and vote often” Tammany Hall scheme. The reality is different. What happened was that ACORN started paying people by the number of registrations that they got. Certain unscrupulous registrars put down false names in order to pad their registration count and pick up some extra bucks.

The folks at ACORN knew from the very beginning that these were bad registrations (some of them had names like Mickey Mouse), but Federal election law prevents registrars from flagging any registration as fraudulent in order to not prejudice the process. With no choice but to pay the con men who did their registration and send the registrations on to the government, ACORN not only got demonized, they lost quite a bit of money paying for phony registrations.

In the end, though, no harm was done. Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck might have been on the voter rolls, but the con men had no intention of voting in the first place; they just wanted the money. Regardless, it isn’t hard to get a name on the voter rolls, what’s difficult is voting under that name, because then you need photo ID.

This wasn’t some conspiracy to get Obama elected; it was a simple scam.

 

[jfallaw]

The fear-mongering that Republicans engage in is ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing that voter registration groups can do to sway an election. They say, but Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck were registered! So? First of all, it is NOT illegal to register Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck to vote. It’s illegal if Mickey and Donald actually showed up and voted. Secondly, voter registration groups are required by law to turn in every single voter registration they collect, even if they are obvious frauds, so blaming them for registering fake people is not right.

–EDIT-- I just read the post above mine. So, yah, same thing.

 

[Mimi]

The fear-mongering that Republicans engage in is ridiculous. There is absolutely nothing that voter registration groups can do to sway an election. They say, but Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck were registered! So? First of all, it is NOT illegal to register Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck to vote. It’s illegal if Mickey and Donald actually showed up and voted. Secondly, voter registration groups are required by law to turn in every single voter registration they collect, even if they are obvious frauds, so blaming them for registering fake people is not right.

–EDIT-- I just read the post above mine. So, yah, same thing.

From the OP:
Let’s please stay on topic.

I would like some discussion about your opinion on these other organizations.

What are the ones in your state? What are they doing and do you agree with their philosophy, mission, plans, etc?

Mimi

 

[Lujack]

From the OP:
Let’s please stay on topic.

I would like some discussion about your opinion on these other organizations.

What are the ones in your state? What are they doing and do you agree with their philosophy, mission, plans, etc?

Mimi

What is an ACORN like group, though? If ACORN is no different than any other political advocacy group, why does it matter if a group resembles ACORN? They’d be no different than any other group you disagree with.

 

[jfallaw]

From the OP:
Let’s please stay on topic.

I would like some discussion about your opinion on these other organizations.

What are the ones in your state? What are they doing and do you agree with their philosophy, mission, plans, etc?

Mimi

I honestly had never heard of a voter registration group before the whole ACORN thing. If the problem is with them paying people to get registrations, though, all I can say is… welcome to America. We are the most money-obsessed capitalist nation on earth. Everything is for sale, and the effects of such rampant commercialism and greed worries me more than just what exactly is for sale.

 

[po18guy]

Saul Alinsky was the son of Russian-Jewish immigrants. He later became a foaming at the mouth leftist who never grew out of the radicalism of his anti-corporate hatred of the 1930s. He was, to put it very kindly, a socialist. He was both too smart and too timid to be a domestic terrorist, so he wrote books urging the public to rise up against the evil powers that be, thus creating yet another evil power, but one that he agreed with. He strongly believed that the ends justify the means, and was considered amoral. He was a community organizer from very early on, and outlived his usefulness by several decades. He is either directly or indirectly responsible for A.C.OR.N.

All of the groups that he formed are are either biblically named or use some other euphemism for something good - the classic use of the BIG LIE. He was all about organizing power for far left-wing projects. In a shocking coincidence, our President elect Barack Obama is a student of the Alinsky school of thought. BTW, Alinsky’s ideas were thought too radical by Hillary Clinton…

So, you know what voting sin your priest likely has to confess. He is essentially asking you to support groups that perform some social good at the price of relatively few innocent babies. I would:

1.Pray for your priest.
2. Write the Bishop.
3. Change parishes, as his thinking appears too relativistic to obediently follow Catholic teaching.

Too bad.

 

[Mimi]

Saul Alinsky was the son of Russian-Jewish immigrants. He later became a foaming at the mouth leftist who never grew out of the radicalism of his anti-corporate hatred of the 1930s. He was, to put it very kindly, a socialist. He was both too smart and too timid to be a domestic terrorist, so he wrote books urging the public to rise up against the evil powers that be, thus creating yet another evil power, but one that he agreed with. He strongly believed that the ends justify the means, and was considered amoral. He was a community organizer from very early on, and outlived his usefulness by several decades. He is either directly or indirectly responsible for A.C.OR.N.

All of the groups that he formed are are either biblically named or use some other euphemism for something good - the classic use of the BIG LIE. He was all about organizing power for far left-wing projects. In a shocking coincidence, our President elect Barack Obama is a student of the Alinsky school of thought. BTW, Alinsky’s ideas were thought too radical by Hillary Clinton…

So, you know what voting sin your priest likely has to confess. He is essentially asking you to support groups that perform some social good at the price of relatively few innocent babies. I would:

1.Pray for your priest.
2. Write the Bishop.
3. Change parishes, as his thinking appears too relativistic to obediently follow Catholic teaching.

Too bad.

1.Pray for your priest.

I do, every night, and I did especially today at Mass (where there were NO acolytes – where was our deacon, I wonder?)

2. Write the Bishop.

Done. Still waiting for a reply. Have asked them if this has reached the Bishop’s desk and let them know we are waiting.
I wrote the priest with my concerns also, and still no answer after one month. Guess I’ll have to make that appointment.

3. Change parishes, as his thinking appears too relativistic to obediently follow Catholic teaching.

Believe me, I am considering it. My DH does not want to, and he is willing to stick it out. I would hate to leave our parishioners to fend for themselves as I think many if not most are unaware of the danger. We would likely move to another diocese as well, in another state, but would be the closest one which is most orthodox (we live on the border between 2 states). Many from our parish have already done so.

I am very encouraged to keep on fighting this and educating people by getting fed by EWTN radio and TV.

I’ve been doing research on Alinsky. Where do you get your info?
Thanks in advance!

God bless,
Mimi

 

[JimG]

There is absolutely nothing that voter registration groups can do to sway an election.

Sure there is something that voter registration groups can do to sway an election. They can target their registration efforts toward those who are likely to vote in a certain way.

If they want a Democrat elected, target groups who are likely to vote Democratic.

If they want a Republican elected, target groups who are likely to vote Republican. It’s not hard. You can’t, after all, reach everybody.

 

[CatholicLeft]

Saul Alinsky was the son of Russian-Jewish immigrants. He later became a foaming at the mouth leftist who never grew out of the radicalism of his anti-corporate hatred of the 1930s. He was, to put it very kindly, a socialist. He was both too smart and too timid to be a domestic terrorist, so he wrote books urging the public to rise up against the evil powers that be, thus creating yet another evil power, but one that he agreed with. He strongly believed that the ends justify the means, and was considered amoral. He was a community organizer from very early on, and outlived his usefulness by several decades. He is either directly or indirectly responsible for A.C.OR.N.

All of the groups that he formed are are either biblically named or use some other euphemism for something good - the classic use of the BIG LIE. He was all about organizing power for far left-wing projects. In a shocking coincidence, our President elect Barack Obama is a student of the Alinsky school of thought. BTW, Alinsky’s ideas were thought too radical by Hillary Clinton…

So, you know what voting sin your priest likely has to confess. He is essentially asking you to support groups that perform some social good at the price of relatively few innocent babies. I would:

1.Pray for your priest.
2. Write the Bishop.
3. Change parishes, as his thinking appears too relativistic to obediently follow Catholic teaching.

Too bad.

Wow, Interesting bio you got there. Reminds me of another radical that you may have heard of. His name is William J. Simmons. He was of American descent. He later became a foaming at the mouth religious fascist who never grew out of the radicalism of his hatred of Blacks, Jews, Roman Catholics or anybody else who was not a native-born White Anglo-Saxon Protestant of the 1920s. He was, to put it very kindly, a Klansmen. Matter of fact he created the second Ku Klux Klan on Thanksgiving Night of 1915. Very right wing down to the core. He was both too smart (claimed to have studied medicine at Johns Hopkins University) and too convalesent (after being hit by an automobile in 1915) to be a domestic terrorist, so he wrote books urging the public to rise up against the evil powers (again Blacks, Jews, and Roman Catholics) thus creating yet another evil power, but one that he agreed with. He strongly believed that the ends justify the means, and was considered amoral. He was elected Emperor for life in November 1922 and outlived his usefulness by a couple decades. He is either directly or indirectly responsible for creation of the second Ku Klux Klan.

My point is that there are radicals on both sides of the spectrum. The beauty of the Catholic Church is that Catholic teaching does not comply with extremism on either side. For every issue you can throw at me that Catholic Teaching doesn’t agree with the Left on, I can throw a issue that Catholic Teaching doesn’t agree with on the Right.

So, If your priest is essentially asking you to support groups that perform some social good at the price of relatively few innocent Iraqis. I would:

1.Pray for your priest.
2. Write the Bishop.
3. Change parishes, as his thinking appears too relativistic to obediently follow Catholic teaching.

 

[po18guy]

Wow, Interesting bio you got there. Reminds me of another radical that you may have heard of. His name is William J. Simmons. He was of American descent. He later became a foaming at the mouth religious fascist who never grew out of the radicalism of his hatred of Blacks, Jews, Roman Catholics or anybody else who was not a native-born White Anglo-Saxon Protestant of the 1920s. He was, to put it very kindly, a Klansmen. Matter of fact he created the second Ku Klux Klan on Thanksgiving Night of 1915. Very right wing down to the core. He was both too smart (claimed to have studied medicine at Johns Hopkins University) and too convalesent (after being hit by an automobile in 1915) to be a domestic terrorist, so he wrote books urging the public to rise up against the evil powers (again Blacks, Jews, and Roman Catholics) thus creating yet another evil power, but one that he agreed with. He strongly believed that the ends justify the means, and was considered amoral. He was elected Emperor for life in November 1922 and outlived his usefulness by a couple decades. He is either directly or indirectly responsible for creation of the second Ku Klux Klan.

My point is that there are radicals on both sides of the spectrum. The beauty of the Catholic Church is that Catholic teaching does not comply with extremism on either side. For every issue you can throw at me that Catholic Teaching doesn’t agree with the Left on, I can throw a issue that Catholic Teaching doesn’t agree with on the Right.

So, If your priest is essentially asking you to support groups that perform some social good at the price of relatively few innocent Iraqis. I would:

1.Pray for your priest.
2. Write the Bishop.
3. Change parishes, as his thinking appears too relativistic to obediently follow Catholic teaching.

Congratulations! You’ve just outed yourself as a relativist and Obama supporter! Now, to save your soul, go confess.

BTW, there are no reports of a priest urging far right activites. No abortion clinic bombings, no doctor muggings, no minority hangings. Your canard holds no water. The KKK did not sign millions up to vote this cycle. The KKK is under less investigation than ACORN. The KKK is almost dead. ACORN and other Godless lefty groups are growing as fast as your solar calculator can count.

Where was your outcry during the Iran-Iraq war when innocents were being killed on both sides? Where was your ‘torches in the streets’ outcry during the Rwandan holocaust? (insert crickets chirping here). Did you even call the UN?

BTW, if you do not identify with either side of the spectrum, why must you proclaim to the world that you are a lefty? I thought you were Catholic.

 

[CatholicLeft]

Congratulations! You’ve just outed yourself as a relativist and Obama supporter! Now, to save your soul, go confess.

BTW, there are no reports of a priest urging far right activites. No abortion clinic bombings, no doctor muggings, no minority hangings. Your canard holds no water. The KKK did not sign millions up to vote this cycle. The KKK is under less investigation than ACORN. The KKK is almost dead. ACORN and other Godless lefty groups are growing as fast as your solar calculator can count.

Where was your outcry during the Iran-Iraq war when innocents were being killed on both sides? Where was your ‘torches in the streets’ outcry during the Rwandan holocaust? (insert crickets chirping here). Did you even call the UN?

BTW, if you do not identify with either side of the spectrum, why must you proclaim to the world that you are a lefty? I thought you were Catholic.

Oh I promise you I’m a leftist, but I’m not a Obama supporter for I am too far to the left to support a corporatist moderate like him. I also promise that I’ll go to confession to “save my soul” (for voting for the left I assume) if you will do the same for voting for the mass murderer George W Bush. I sure hope you are not taking communion for voting for a guy that as governor of Texas killed more then 150 people with the death penalty. As president killed more then 100,000 innocent Iraqis for corporate interests (oil, defense industry, blackwater, etc…) You assume a lot about me.I have been to more anti-war rallies then you have gone to confession and have come out against both the Rwandan holocaust and the Iraq/Iran war, both in street protests and on paper.

As for priest committing war crimes…

Argentina: Priest Imprisoned for Dirty War Crimes

Former Chaplin Christian Von Wernich was sentenced to life in prison on October 9th in Argentina, for committing crimes against humanity during the nation’s bloody military junta. He is the first catholic priest to be charged with human rights abuses committed during the 1976-1983 military junta, during which an estimated 30,000 people were killed.

Von Wernich was found guilty of collaborating with state security agents and covering up crimes in seven deaths, 31 cases of torture and 42 cases of illegal imprisonment. This is the latest human rights verdict of an accused torturer since the landmark conviction of a former police officer for genocide in 2006. As judge Carlos Rozanski read the historic verdict, torture survivors and family members of victims celebrated.

Slow wheels of justice: 30 years of impunity

Outside the courtroom between hugs and cheers, Carlos Saiman, torture survivor and plaintiff against the ex-military chaplain, said that the trials need to continue. “We want for those who participated in genocide to be put in jail, today there’s one more in prison. This should force us to continue to bring every person who participated in the genocide in the clandestine detention centers and supported genocide to justice, justice which we the survivors didn’t have, that the 30,000 disappeared didn’t have.”

In total, 256 former military personnel and members of the military government have been accused of human rights crimes and are now awaiting trial. This is only the third trial held since Argentina’s Supreme Court struck down amnesty laws in 2005 protecting military personnel who served during the seven-year dictatorship. So far, two police officers and a priest have been tried – not a single military officer has been slated for trial. Human rights groups in Argentina report that the trials to convict former members of the military dictatorship for abuses have advanced at a snail’s pace, if advancing at all. Victims blame an inefficient court system filled with structural roadblocks and uncooperative judges.

The historic verdict, sentencing Von Wernich to life in prison comes shortly after the one year anniversary to mark the one year disappearance of a key witness who helped convict a former police officer for life in 2006. Julio Lopez, went missing exactly a year ago, on the eve of the land mark conviction of Miguel Etchecolatz, the first military officer to be sentenced to life in prison for crimes against humanity and genocide committed during the 1976-1983 military dictatorship. Lopez was last seen walking near his home in La Plata, about 40 miles from Buenos Aires.

“After the disappearance of Jorge Julio Lopez, we were afraid whether we could continue with the trials. Even though the witnesses are afraid it is important to continue with the trials to end with the impunity,” said Guadelupe Godoy human rights lawyer handling the plaintiffs charges against Von Wernich in the proceedings. Many of the witnesses have had to accept government sponsored witness protection. Just an hour before Von Wernich’s verdict was scheduled, the courthouse in La Plata had to be evacuated.

Toward Freedom - Tuesday, 16 October 2007

Oh and by the way, I’m very Catholic. Name one exclusive right wing issue that Jesus taught??

 

[Lujack]

Congratulations! You’ve just outed yourself as a relativist and Obama supporter! Now, to save your soul, go confess.

BTW, there are no reports of a priest urging far right activites. No abortion clinic bombings, no doctor muggings, no minority hangings. Your canard holds no water. The KKK did not sign millions up to vote this cycle. The KKK is under less investigation than ACORN. The KKK is almost dead. ACORN and other Godless lefty groups are growing as fast as your solar calculator can count.

Where was your outcry during the Iran-Iraq war when innocents were being killed on both sides? Where was your ‘torches in the streets’ outcry during the Rwandan holocaust? (insert crickets chirping here). Did you even call the UN?

BTW, if you do not identify with either side of the spectrum, why must you proclaim to the world that you are a lefty? I thought you were Catholic.

If ACORN was indeed under more actual investigation than the Ku Klux Klan (which they aren’t), I’d be deeply disturbed considering ACORN hasn’t actually done anything illegal. They are no different than any other group you disagree with.