Warning about ACORN-like groups

[po18guy]

That isn’t subversive; its a bad idea. There is a difference between advocating for a bad idea and trying to destroy the United States. I still don’t see anything dangerous about them, other than that one of their ideas contributed to a financial meltdown (the banks still carry a significant, significant share of the blame).

What are their subversive actions?

From Dictionary.com:

1. Also, sub⋅ver⋅sion⋅ar⋅y  [suhb-vur-zhuh-ner-ee, -shuh-] Show IPA Pronunciation . tending to subvert or advocating subversion, esp. in an attempt to overthrow or cause the destruction of an established or legally constituted government.

1. sub·ver·sive (səb-vûr’sĭv, -zĭv) Pronunciation Key
   adj. Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established government

Subversion was Alinsky’s life blood. He was a class warrior. It became the life blood of his students, such as ACORN’s founder, Wade Rathke. These groups, despite their biblical, noble or lofty sounding titles, are amoral, “ends justifies the means” groups. This is 100% contrary to Catholic teaching. They seek things such as involuntary income redistribution, which is socialist - 100% contrary to the free market principles that founded America.

The pragmatist’s view of ACORN is that they registered perhaps millions of fraudulent “voters”. If not subversive, what on earth would you call it? It matters not one bit what ACORN leaders claim. Nixon claimed innocence, too. Neither has the Mafia ever admitted guilt. All three behaviors are identical. At least Nixon was actually elected and had the sense to bow out.

This, in the nation with the world’s wealthiest poor people.

 

[Lujack]

From Dictionary.com:

Subversion was Alinsky’s life blood. He was a class warrior. It became the life blood of his students, such as ACORN’s founder, Wade Rathke. These groups, despite their biblical, noble or lofty sounding titles, are amoral, “ends justifies the means” groups. This is 100% contrary to Catholic teaching. They seek things such as involuntary income redistribution, which is socialist - 100% contrary to the free market principles that founded America.

I don’t care what Alinsky did or sought; I only care what ACORN is doing. At worst, they are peacefully advocating for socialism, which is not subversive in any way. More realistically, they are advocating for causes that are left of center.

The pragmatist’s view of ACORN is that they registered perhaps millions of fraudulent “voters”. If not subversive, what on earth would you call it? It matters not one bit what ACORN leaders claim. Nixon claimed innocence, too. Neither has the Mafia ever admitted guilt. All three behaviors are identical. At least Nixon was actually elected and had the sense to bow out.

I don’t call it subversive because they were the victims of fraud, not the perpetrators of it. Look at my post earlier in the thread, and you’ll see what I mean.

This, in the nation with the world’s wealthiest poor people.

There is a serious poverty problem in America. The welfare queens are a myth and always have been. Have you ever been somewhere like Camden or Newark, perchance? There are people technically above the poverty line who are in very serious straits.

 

[po18guy]

I don’t care what Alinsky did or sought; I only care what ACORN is doing. At worst, they are peacefully advocating for socialism, which is not subversive in any way. More realistically, they are advocating for causes that are left of center. I don’t call it subversive because they were the victims of fraud, not the perpetrators of it. Look at my post earlier in the thread, and you’ll see what I mean. There is a serious poverty problem in America. The welfare queens are a myth and always have been. Have you ever been somewhere like Camden or Newark, perchance? There are people technically above the poverty line who are in very serious straits.

You are biased strongly pro-ACORN. You are parroting the corporate-speak excuse “we were victims of fraud” rubbish. A rational human must strain to believe this, especially on the decades long and on-going, nationwide scale of the vote fraud. Who is running their show, Bill Clinton? (in best Arkansas drawl: “I did not engage in voter fraud with those millions…”)

You and I will disagree forever on this, but I am very glad that I did the research into the roots of these organizations. Get used to it: they are subversive - their roots are subversive, their founders were subversive, their actions, even those they are “unaware of” for decades, are subversive. Plain English, dude!

By continuing your favor of, and support of them, you diverge even more radically from the Church. You can’t have it both ways. You’ve made your choice and I’ve made mine.

 

[Lujack]

You are biased strongly pro-ACORN. You are parroting the corporate-speak excuse “we were victims of fraud” rubbish. A rational human must strain to believe this, especially on the decades long and on-going, nationwide scale of the vote fraud. Who is running their show, Bill Clinton? (in best Arkansas drawl: “I did not engage in voter fraud with those millions…”)

Actually, I don’t even support ACORN. I’ve never given them a dime, and I probably never will give them a dime, because I don’t agree with many of the things they support. But you aren’t willing to look at the facts of the case. Did you read my previous post? They were clearly the victims of fraud, and they wound up losing money to pay the con men. It isn’t corporate speak, it is the only way to describe the case.

If I say to you “I’ll pay you x amount of money for every encyclopedia you sell.”, and you come to me with a list of people who you sold encyclopedias to (but never did), and I then pay you, I’ve been defrauded.

Replace “I” with ACORN and encyclopedias sold with voters registered, and you have exactly what happened.

You and I will disagree forever on this, but I am very glad that I did the research into the roots of these organizations. Get used to it: they are subversive - their roots are subversive, their founders were subversive, their actions, even those they are “unaware of” for decades, are subversive. Plain English, dude!

By continuing your favor of, and support of them, you diverge even more radically from the Church. You can’t have it both ways. You’ve made your choice and I’ve made mine.

Give me a single subversive action, just one. I don’t support them because I don’t like many of their causes, but that doesn’t make them subversive.

 

[po18guy]

Actually, I don’t even support ACORN. I’ve never given them a dime, and I probably never will give them a dime, because I don’t agree with many of the things they support. But you aren’t willing to look at the facts of the case. Did you read my previous post? They were clearly the victims of fraud, and they wound up losing money to pay the con men. It isn’t corporate speak, it is the only way to describe the case.

If I say to you “I’ll pay you x amount of money for every encyclopedia you sell.”, and you come to me with a list of people who you sold encyclopedias to (but never did), and I then pay you, I’ve been defrauded.

Replace “I” with ACORN and encyclopedias sold with voters registered, and you have exactly what happened.

Give me a single subversive action, just one. I don’t support them because I don’t like many of their causes, but that doesn’t make them subversive.

Your words.

 

[Lujack]

Your words.

Yes, I know. I wrote them. Do you have a response to them?

 

[CatholicLeft]

Are you ashamed for your brother? The left clearly has always supported abortion, regardless of politcal party. By a very wide margin. So, what are you even talking about? As a pragmatist, supporting the left is per se supporting abortion. Compartmentalize all you will, but the blood of innocent babies still flows.

If you’re going to whine about a “witch hunt”, go to a Protestant site. They originated it. As to his user name defining him, the “left” part is screamingly obvious. The “Catholic” part is much more obscure, almost requiring an electron microscope to discern. The left has nothing, if not solidarity - or maybe it’s just static cling.

Again, po you assume a lot about me. I am very pro-life. More pro-life then you apperently. For I believe in the sanitity of all life, not just the un-born. My “lefty” beliefs try to make a better world for everyone, not just the ones I agree with. I take seriously that silly “love thy neighbor” and “love thy enemy” stuff. You know that silly “Catholic” stuff you pass by looking for more strict Catholic teaching that you can tell everyone they have to follow. I regect the common myth that people like you try to perpatuate that the Left= Abortion and the Right=Catholism. It’s just not true.

The only two things that the Church and the “left” disagree on is Gay marriage and Abortion. As long as I agree with the church teaching on these two issues (which I do) then there is not much else I need to atone for.

While on the other hand, any of you true righties out there that have sold out on all other Catholic teaching for the sake of the Abortion issue, I pray that you come back to the Church. I find IMO that most of the Right’s issues do not even come close to Catholic teaching.

 

[sedonaman]

That isn’t subversive; its a bad idea. There is a difference between advocating for a bad idea and trying to destroy the United States. I still don’t see anything dangerous about them, other than that one of their ideas contributed to a financial meltdown (the banks still carry a significant, significant share of the blame).

What are their subversive actions?

You have too limited a definition of subversion. A search of dictionary.com led to the verb sub-vert’:

1. to overthrow (something established or existing).
2. to cause the downfall, ruin, or destruction of.
3. to undermine the principles of; to corrupt.

The whole purpose of the Left is revolution, the overthrow of the existing order of things so it can take over. It’s not rocket science to understand that a person who can’t make monthly mortgage payments of $1,500 a month can’t make payments of $2,000.

When you have enough loan defaults, it can bring down the banking system by “subverting” peoples’ faith in it. FYI, interest rates on treasury bills are now about 1.6% because there has been a flight of money from banks and other investments to security; and the less money a bank has, the less it can loan out and therefore the less money it can make. The less money it makes, the more employees get laid off. If this isn’t dangerous, what is?

As far as blaming banks is concerned, how can you say that when the government was forcing them to make risky loans? [Some of them are known as **No Income, No Job, and no Assets “NINJA” loans because the applicants didn’t have the normal requirements to qualify.]

Of course, the average person cannot even imagine these dots, much less see and connect them. All they see are high unemployment and people losing their homes through bank foreclosure and equating same to “evil, greedy” banks trying to make “obscene” profits. They then demand that banks be “regulated”. What they don’t know is that banks were regulated all along – by the CRA. Forcing banks to make affirmative action loans is regulation, just a different form of what we normally think of as “regulation”. [Normally, we think of regulation as **preventing an industry from doing something, not making it do something.]

As I stated above, the whole purpose of the Left is revolution, the overthrow of the existing order of things so it can take over. Isn’t that what just happened?

 

[CatholicLeft]

As for ACORN or ACORN-like groups, who cares. For every “corrupt” liberal group you can post, I can find a Right wing group that has done the same or even worse. KKK, neo-nazis, Posse Comitatus, and the Christian Patriots movement to name a few. Heck, I can even find corrupt groups in the Catholic Church. Corruption is everywhere. What we as individuals need to do is avoid corruption and call it out when we see it. But to call out only the corruption of the ones you don’t like is not right either. Jesus had something to say of this…

Matthew - Chapter 7: 3-5

Why do you observe the splinter in your brother’s eye and never notice the great log in your own?

And how dare you say to your brother, “Let me take that splinter out of your eye,” when, look, there is a great log in your own?

Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye.

 

[sedonaman]

The only two things that the Church and the “left” disagree on is Gay marriage and Abortion. As long as I agree with the church teaching on these two issues (which I do) then there is not much else I need to atone for. … I find IMO that most of the Right’s issues do not even come close to Catholic teaching.

A little off topic, but here goes:

The Church teaches that hierarchy is necessary for an efficient and effective society; the Right agrees with this, but the Left, being for radical egalitarianism, is against it. The Church teaches that one of the human rights is the ownership of property; the Right agrees with this, but the Left, being collectivist, is against it [except for their own elite]. The Church teaches that parents have the right to determine their children’s education; the Right agrees with this, but the Left is against it. The Church teaches individual responsibility; the Right agrees with this, but the Left teaches that a corrupt society forces people do wrong [never mind that society is composed of people]. The Church teaches that self-destructive behavior [not limited to abortion and sodomite marriage] enslaves the individual; the Right agrees with this, but the Left says it is a “right”. The Church teaches voluntary charity; the Left believes in forced charity and therefore equates itself with Christ’s teaching. The Church is a teaching religion; the Right says religion is necessary because the police can’t be everywhere all the time; the Left hates religion.

Need I go on?

 

[Apryl]

I listed ACORN as a sort of hook to get people to read.

Which makes me very suspect of you, and your motives and actions. ACORN got a lot of bad press this year, but for what? Some people were registering people, and they turned in names of people that weren’t valid to register, or they were repeat registers (which is in no way illegal or illicit, btw). I can register at the Secretary of State’s Office every third Thursday, and that is the same thing. It’s me that would be wrong, not the SOS for taking my registerations.

Because of the bad press of ACORN, and you choosing to use that name as a hoook, makes me wonder how muddy you intended for this discussion to become.

All the groups I listed in my original post are under the Gamaliel Foundation. It says so on their web sites.

No one is saying they aren’t Gamaliel affiliates. “It says so on their web sites”. ??? You’re making my head hurt. You said ‘ACORN’ in your subject line. You didn’t say, in your post, they were all Gamaliel. What about other Community Organizing Groups? You have access to the internet? There are others. Again… you are suspect.

It bothers me that so many churches are climbing on this bandwagon without investigation and a background check.

You are the one with the ACORN/ Gamaliel conflict. How do you know that others are not investigating or doing a background check? You can’t do any valid investigating or background checking by saying what you’ve said… your techniquest are faulty. With all the groups you mentioned, and all the churches that are sure to be affiliated, SOMEONE, I’m sure, has done some investigation.

Have you bothered to check with your Archdiocese if the Archdiocese has done any investigation or background checks?

Have you bothered to ask at your church?

You make my head hurt.

Our parish is being asked to fork over $1,000.00 which we do not have. Thank God, the bad weather has postponed the next meeting for another week!

I am not the only one in my area who has concerns about the true objective of JOB and the other groups. I am trying to educate people, get them to think and read and not become members (unless you want to attend meetings to use their tactics against them; i.e., infiltrate, gather info, challenge, etc.).

I’m going to go out on a limb here, and try to be charitable with you:

You can’t do any investigation of a group by posting a post like you did, asking the questions that you did, on a site like this. Do your home work on Gamaliel… and on ACORN… and ask some questions, rather than making statements.

With all due respect: it’s the only way to satisfy your curiosity.

If you don’t want to be a part of their group, don’t do it. But to say it’s because of some shadow that you can’t even see makes me wonder about you.

And I will pray for you.

 

[CatholicLeft]

You have too limited a definition of subversion. A search of dictionary.com led to the verb sub-vert’:

1. to overthrow (something established or existing).
2. to cause the downfall, ruin, or destruction of.
3. to undermine the principles of; to corrupt.

The whole purpose of the Left is revolution, the overthrow of the existing order of things so it can take over. It’s not rocket science to understand that a person who can’t make monthly mortgage payments of $1,500 a month can’t make payments of $2,000.

When you have enough loan defaults, it can bring down the banking system by “subverting” peoples’ faith in it. FYI, interest rates on treasury bills are now about 1.6% because there has been a flight of money from banks and other investments to security; and the less money a bank has, the less it can loan out and therefore the less money it can make. The less money it makes, the more employees get laid off. If this isn’t dangerous, what is?

As far as blaming banks is concerned, how can you say that when the government was forcing them to make risky loans? [Some of them are known as **N

o Income, No Job, and no Assets “NINJA” loans because the applicants didn’t have the normal requirements to qualify.]

Of course, the average person cannot even imagine these dots, much less see and connect them. All they see are high unemployment and people losing their homes through bank foreclosure and equating same to “evil, greedy” banks trying to make “obscene” profits. They then demand that banks be “regulated”. What they don’t know is that banks were regulated all along – by the CRA. Forcing banks to make affirmative action loans is regulation, just a different form of what we normally think of as “regulation”. [Normally, we think of regulation as **preventing an industry from doing something, not making it do something.]

As I stated above, the whole purpose of the Left is revolution, the overthrow of the existing order of things so it can take over. Isn’t that what just happened?

No, your thinking of marxist Communism. The purpose of the true left is to bring back a government rulred by the people for the people. Sometimes “revolution” is necessary, but always without violence, (for you cannot be for the people if your killing the people your trying to be for) Sometimes the existing order needs to be removed. A “revolution” would of been nice in Nazi Germany if the people rose up against their inherint evil government. Revolutions can happen without a single shot fired. MLK and Gandi both proved this was possible. Heck, our country was started from a revolution,

As for bad bank loans, the government forcing banks to make bad loans is a myth. It was the banks that lobbied the government to de-regulate the rules to who they can give loans too. Basically the banks broke the THE SEVENTH COMMANDMENT…

2409 Even if it does not contradict the provisions of civil law, any form of unjustly taking and keeping the property of others is against the seventh commandment: thus, deliberate retention of goods lent or of objects lost; business fraud; paying unjust wages; forcing up prices by taking advantage of the ignorance or hardship of another. Cf. Deut 25:13-16; 24:14-15; Jas 5:4; Am 8:4-6.

Catholic Catechism

 

[sedonaman]

As for ACORN or ACORN-like groups, who cares.

You don’t care that innocent people lose their jobs, and their property is now worth less than they owe on it? How Christian is that? I thought you Leftists were all about caring for people.

For every “corrupt” liberal group you can post, I can find a Right wing group that has done the same or even worse. KKK, neo-nazis, Posse Comitatus, and the Christian Patriots movement to name a few. Heck, I can even find corrupt groups in the Catholic Church. Corruption is everywhere.

You have just committed the tu quoque argument.

What we as individuals need to do is avoid corruption and call it out when we see it. But to call out only the corruption of the ones you don’t like is not right either.

I didn’t see in your post any criticism of the Left.

Why do you observe the splinter in your brother’s eye and never notice the great log in your own?

And how dare you say to your brother, “Let me take that splinter out of your eye,” when, look, there is a great log in your own?

Hypocrite! Take the log out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye.

An obvious misapplication of scripture.

 

[sedonaman]

As for bad bank loans, the government forcing banks to make bad loans is a myth. It was the banks that lobbied the government to de-regulate the rules to who they can give loans too.

Another characteristic of the Left is it re-writes history.

 

[Apryl]

"Originally Posted by CatholicLeft
As for bad bank loans, the government forcing banks to make bad loans is a myth. It was the banks that lobbied the government to de-regulate the rules to who they can give loans too. "
Another characteristic of the Left is it re-writes history.

… and what does this have to do with the Original post?

Moderators??? Oh Moderators???

 

[sedonaman]

… and what does this have to do with the Original post?

Mimi asked what was wrong with ACORN and similar groups. Most people know only about their voter registration fraud while the elephant in the room is the part they played in the financial melt-down. I responded with my first post to try to explain their role in it. [Fewer still are aware that the USCCB have been funding ACORN to the tune of $7,000,000 over the last 10 years and that they suspended funding last June because one of ACORN’s managers embezzled a million dollars over a two-year period.]

CatholicLeft then started off on how Leftist philosophy was Christ-like as opposed to conservative thought. That’s when I said it was off topic.

I have blogged on a number of sites, and frankly, this is probably the most difficult one on which to follow a thread.

 

[CatholicLeft]

A little off topic, but here goes:

The Church teaches that hierarchy is necessary for an efficient and effective society; the Right agrees with this, but the Left, being for radical egalitarianism, is against it. The Church teaches that one of the human rights is the ownership of property; the Right agrees with this, but the Left, being collectivist, is against it [except for their own elite]. The Church teaches that parents have the right to determine their children’s education; the Right agrees with this, but the Left is against it. The Church teaches individual responsibility; the Right agrees with this, but the Left teaches that a corrupt society forces people do wrong [never mind that society is composed of people]. The Church teaches that self-destructive behavior [not limited to abortion and sodomite marriage] enslaves the individual; the Right agrees with this, but the Left says it is a “right”. The Church teaches voluntary charity; the Left believes in forced charity and therefore equates itself with Christ’s teaching. The Church is a teaching religion; the Right says religion is necessary because the police can’t be everywhere all the time; the Left hates religion.

Need I go on?

Say like what???

Ok, I really think you are getting the “left” mixed up with “communism” or “anarchy”

All communist nations have become dictatorships of one party rule, as such some of there anti-populist actions are more the traits of a dictatorship then the traits of the left. I cannot think of one leftist group, organization or nation that doesn’t have a hierarchy. We believe that all people are created equal and such all deserves the same rights, privileges and resources of our government. This is the same as Church teaching. You do know that the Left in America are not a bunch of commies, I myself am a Democratic socialist. I believe in democracy, private property and freedom of religion. Kinda like most of Western Europe. But I also believe in following Catholic teaching that we as a group (or government) we need to do all we can for those who have less, who live in poverty in our society. This calls for a type of socialism that lend opportunity for those who have less.

2431 The responsibility of the state. "Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical, or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principal task of the state is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labors and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. . . . Another task of the state is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the state but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society.

As for voluntary charity, forget about what the government wants you to do, your church requires you to charity. The Church is for forced charity.

VI. LOVE FOR THE POOR

2445 Love for the poor is incompatible with immoderate love of riches or their selfish use:

2448 "In its various forms - material deprivation, unjust oppression, physical and psychological illness and death - human misery is the obvious sign of the inherited condition of frailty and need for salvation in which man finds himself as a consequence of original sin. This misery elicited the compassion of Christ the Savior, who willingly took it upon himself and identified himself with the least of his brethren. Hence, those who are oppressed by poverty are the object of a preferential love on the part of the Church which, since her origin and in spite of the failings of many of her members, has not ceased to work for their relief, defense, and liberation through numerous works of charity which remain indispensable always and everywhere."247

As for the left hating religion, it simply is not true. Communism might of hated religion, mostly because all organized groups outside of their government were a threat to their one party existence. Nazi Germany had no great love for religion for the same reason.

You do know that there are entire religious socialist organizations out there that are not trying to destroy you.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_socialism

 

[CatholicLeft]

Thanks, Po, for attracting more additions for my “ignore list”, with about 4 or 5 from this thread alone.

It’s grown ENORMOUSLY over the last several days!

:shamrock2:

Gee, I’m sorry I caused you to put me on your Ignore list (if you can even read what I’m saying) but I think being in the likeness of God, you really should use everything he has given you and that includes Freedom of thought and the opportunity to read opinions they may differ then yours. As Catholics we are not called to be mindless drones who follow a bunch of religious rules. I’ll leave that to the terrorists suicide bombers. Nothing more scary then an uneducated Catholic who thinks just following the truth is a substitution to education and thought. This sadly,is a trait of some Christians.

 

[Lujack]

What you guys are doing is taking the extreme left, and comparing it to the moderate right.

Marxist Communism pairs with Anarcho-Capitalism, not Republicanism. Unless the right wants to claim fascism and the KKK, they can’t paint all groups left of center as wanting to destroy religion and violently overthrow the government.

Social Democrats are not Stalinists, no matter how much rhetoric is thrown at the issue.

 

[CatholicLeft]

What you guys are doing is taking the extreme left, and comparing it to the moderate right.

Marxist Communism pairs with Anarcho-Capitalism, not Republicanism. Unless the right wants to claim fascism and the KKK, they can’t paint all groups left of center as wanting to destroy religion and violently overthrow the government.

Social Democrats are not Stalinists, no matter how much rhetoric is thrown at the issue.

AMEN, Lujack