Was Anyone Allowed in Heaven before Christ?

[GandalfTheWhite]

Scripture does not specify where Elisha went but it DOES specify where Elijah went. Again, it says that he went to HEAVEN and not the Bosom of Abraham, Limbo of the Fathers or whatever you wish to call it.

If this is true, then why did the Jews who died before Jesus went to the Bosom of Abraham if in the spiritual realm the Sacrifice had already taken place?

Further, if what you say is true, where does the Church teach that or ever taught that? Is there a Church Father that supports your view?

Also you said that Heaven = Heaven. I agree with that, but in what language? Modern literal English or the ancient Hebrew? You see, the word heaven didn’t just mean what Christians now see as heaven. In fact at that time, as far as I know, the concept wasn’t as clear. Up to that heaven also used to simply mean sky - the realm above earth.

Exodus 20:4
“You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in **heaven **above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.”

Here the Old Testament speaks about heaven. Is it speaking about birds that live in complete union with God? Or is it speaking about sky?

Genesis 2:1
Thus the **heavens **and the earth were completed in all their vast array.

Same here. God created Heavens and Earth. He couldn’t create heavens because heaven exists by the very fact that God exists. The same goes for Hell. Hell existed before the Angles rebelled. It is clear that the passage is speaking about earth and sky.

There are countless of other passages that clearly speak about sky.

Deuteronomy 28:24
The LORD will make the rain of your land powder and dust; from **heaven **it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.

Will it come from Heaven where the Saints are or from the sky?

You see, the word in Hebrew is shamayim, which means many things including sky. Check this out for other passages.

Why do you insist on making these strange theories to fir your interpretation of the passage when it is very clear that Elijah was taken up to the skies in a Chariot of Fire. The Bible is otherwise silent on where Elijah ended up.

Pax Christi,
~G

 

[Sir_Knight]

For the benefit of those who don’t seem to be able to read the Catechism:

ALL the dead, whether evil or righteous, were *deprived *of the vision of God prior to Christ’s own death. ALL the righteous needed to ‘await their redeemer’ before being able to enter God’s presence.

Not a one of them is recorded as having been GRANTED the extraordinary grace of avoiding this deprivation and avoiding this waiting period. Not even Elijah. How much plainer does the Catechism have to state it for you? Elijah didn’t get early entry into God’s presence! No-one did.

We know the exceptions to such rules when there are exceptions - for example to Paul’s ‘all have sinned’, it’s both obvious and explicit Church teaching that Mary was one exception, that children under the age of reason and those lacking mental capacity are also exceptions. God has ways of letting us know these things

And since when does ‘heaven’ in the Bible automatically mean God’s presence anyways? When He created the heavens and the earth in Genesis did He create His own presence? Of course not - His presence is not a created thing.

When God created the ‘waters’ above the heavens - how can that possibly refer to placing some sort of water above His own presence? The idea is nonsense and interpreting the word ‘heaven’ so also is nonsense.

Heaven in these cases simply means ‘the sky’, as the posted explanation of Elijah’s assumption makes clear. This makes sense - the ‘waters’ are obviously the clouds which are kinda sorta above the sky.

We use heaven in a similar sense now - stars and planets are ‘heavenly bodies’ - means they’re in created space and the created universe, not in the heaven of God’s own presence.

So it is plain as day that when scripture records Elijah being taken into heaven it simply means that He was taken into the sky and out of sight. Not a reference to his eternal destiny or any sort of entry into God’s presence.

So, you are saying that the bible is WRONG and he was not taken up to heaven?

Your explanation agrees with the CCC but disagrees with the bible while my explanation agrees with BOTH. Which, do you think, is the correct explanation?

 

[LilyM]

So, you are saying that the bible is WRONG and he was not taken up to heaven?

Your explanation agrees with the CCC but disagrees with the bible while my explanation agrees with BOTH. Which, do you think, is the correct explanation?

My definition doesn’t disagree with the Bible at all. Not in the slightest.

The bible says he was taken up to*** heaven***, yes. This probably means taken up into the sky and nothing more. ‘Sky’ is an entirely consistent and common meaning of the word heaven. ‘Heavenly bodies’, for example, are those we see in heaven, but heaven in their case is the night sky. THEY aren’t in God’s presence, so neither is the Bible saying Elijah was taken up to God’s presence.

Heaven DOESN’T automatically mean God’s presence. Not in modern English nor in Biblical Hebrew. As the references I posted earlier from Genesis also demonstrate. I truly hope this is sinking in.

And this definition, of ‘heaven’ as ‘the sky’ ALSO fits in with what the Church teaches in the Catechism, whereas yours doesn’t, so it’s more likely to be correct than yours.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

So, you are saying that the bible is WRONG and he was not taken up to heaven?

No, she is saying that your interpretation of the word **heaven **in that passage is wrong in the same way as if you say that in this passage…

Ezekiel 29:5
And I will leave thee into the wilderness, thee and all the fish of thy rivers: thou shalt fall upon the open fields; thou shalt not be brought together, nor gathered: I have given thee for meat to the beasts of the field and to the fowls of the heaven.

…the birds were in the Christian heaven and not in physical realm above the earth.
[Sure you might say that some translations of the Bible say sky or air and that I purpousfully chose the one that says heaven. I did, but if you check the Hebrew you will see that the word remains the same.]

Your explanation agrees with the CCC but disagrees with the bible while my explanation agrees with BOTH. Which, do you think, is the correct explanation?

No, her (sorry, I’m not sure ) explanation **agrees **with the Catholic Church. Now, yours might (and only MIGHT) agree with the Church only if you do some major gymnastics creating wild theories that have no support in the teaching of the Church and that bring further questions (which I outlined in the previous post) which might be answered only with more gymnastics.

So, what’s so difficult on believing that Elijah was taken up into the sky (heaven) in a physical way and not into the perfect union with God?

Pax Christi,
~G

 

[Sir_Knight]

Think about it? Why would God send an angel to bring Elijah up to the sky (one definition of heaven) or to outer space (another definition of heaven)? That doesn’t make any sense.

It has been discussed on this board more than once that God can take our FUTURE prayers to release a soul from purgatory earlier. Which is why the church encourages us to pray for the dead and offer up masses for their intentions.

If God can use our FUTURE actions before they are performed, why can not the same logic apply to Christ’s death on the cross?

 

[pprimeau1976]

There is precedence of God saving people before his death and resurrection. Mary was saved prior to Christ’s death. This did not cheapen his sacrifice in any way. Because Jesus Christ was an infinite being his salvific act can be applied to people both before and after his death. It was not just a finite man who died on Calvary it was an infinite God.

So, people could have made it to heaven prior to Christ’s death, IMO. However, this was done totally by the grace of god and not by any human achievement.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Think about it? Why would God send an angel to bring Elijah up to the sky (one definition of heaven) or to outer space (another definition of heaven)? That doesn’t make any sense.

Why doesn’t it make sense? Why would it not make sense for God to give Elijah such an honorable departure? Do you see into God’s mind to judge his intentions?

And if it truly doesnt make sense and it’s such a mystery, it must have bothered many. Were there any Church Father trying to solve this question? Did they arrive the the same conclusion as you?

It has been discussed on this board more than once that God can take our FUTURE prayers to release a soul from purgatory earlier.

First, surely you agree that the Sacrifice of Christ and prayers are something completely different. Second, does the Church teach that? Why should we believe that?

Which is why the church encourages us to pray for the dead and offer up masses for their intentions.

No, she doesn’t encourage it so that FUTURE prayers are applied to those in the purgatory. She encourages it so that the PRESENT prayers are applied to our departed.

If God can use our FUTURE actions before they are performed, why can not the same logic apply to Christ’s death on the cross?

It’s not a question of what he can and cannot do. It’s a question of what he does.

Now, why was there the place called Bosom of Abraham? Why does the Church teach that souls were waiting there until the Jesus Christ released them from there after his horrible death?

…

Look, Sir Knight, you take a passage and with your human limited intellect conclude that it wouldn’t make sense for God to do something. However much I read it I don’t see why but perhaps you can’t make sense of it. But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t make sense to God. That’s something I hear from non-Christians all the time. You know things like: “God could have done better”, “This doesn’t make sense, God woudn’t do it.” etc. Because of this you reject the idea that this was happened and you logically find yourself contradicting the teaching of the Church and the Bible. So you just go ahead and make make up an pretty big assumption that has no support in the teaching of Oral Tradition, the Scripture or the Magisterium. The whole idea that you’re trying to push forward is **entirelly **based on this one unsupportable assumption. How credible is it?

Pax Christi,
~G

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

There is precedence of God saving people before his death and resurrection. Mary was saved prior to Christ’s death.

I believe you are mixing apples and oranges. Mary did not enter heaven prior Jesus’ resurrection.

So, people could have made it to heaven prior to Christ’s death, IMO. However, this was done totally by the grace of god and not by any human achievement.

Why does James contradicts this idea?
Why was there the Bosom of Abraham?
Why did Jesus go down to “hell” to preach to the souls that died before Jesus is the sacrifice had the same effect infinitely into the past?

No one yet was able to answer these questions.

Pax Christi,
~G

 

[Sir_Knight]

Why does James contradicts this idea?
Why was there the Bosom of Abraham?
Why did Jesus go down to “hell” to preach to the souls that died before Jesus is the sacrifice had the same effect infinitely into the past?

No one yet was able to answer these questions.

Why do people spend in purgatory even though prayers said for them that haven’t even been said yet are applied before the prayers are said and release them before hand?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Why do people spend in purgatory even though prayers said for them that haven’t even been said yet are applied before the prayers are said and release them before hand?

First, is that the teaching of the Church? I don’t know to be perfectly honest. I heard it before. Perhaps it does this ways…

…if it does then it’s simply because God knows what we will ask for before we ask for it and thus he may grant it for us. In fact he knows what will will need and want before we even know that such needs may exist exist.

Now, this doesn’t answer any of the questions I asked.

God bless,
~G

 

[Sir_Knight]

Why doesn’t it make sense? Why would it not make sense for God to give Elijah such an honorable departure?

For what logical purpose would Elijah had been taken up to the sky? To preach to the birds? Or to outer space? To establish a space colony?

Do you see into God’s mind to judge his intentions?

It has nothing to do with JUDGING God’s intentions. God gave us a mind to think & reason and there would have been no logical reason to take Elijah into outer space. Therefore, we can REASON that heaven means “heaven with God”.

And if it truly doesnt make sense and it’s such a mystery, it must have bothered many. Were there any Church Father trying to solve this question? Did they arrive the the same conclusion as you?

As I said in my first post on this topic, I haven’t studied this topic previously. I am merely expressing my opinion of what makes logical sense and is in keeping with the CCC and the bible.

First, surely you agree that the Sacrifice of Christ and prayers are something completely different.

Christ’s Sacrifice was greater than any of our prayers. Therefore, it should have a greater effect than any of our prayers. If our FUTURE prayers can be used before they are said, then how much more so the Sacrifice of Christ.

Second, does the Church teach that? Why should we believe that?

I don’t know if the church teaches it but we should believe it because the bible says it and nowhere does the church specifically say that it isn’t so.

No, she doesn’t encourage it so that FUTURE prayers are applied to those in the purgatory. She encourages it so that the PRESENT prayers are applied to our departed.

As I said, it has been mentioned on this board more than once that our future prayers are used by God to current events. I have yet to see anyone dispute that claim. Thus, the conclusion that I have drawn is that that belief is correct. If I wasn’t on a slow dial-up, I’d go searching to find the specific threads where it was mentioned.

It’s not a question of what he can and cannot do. It’s a question of what he does.

Exactly. And the bible tells us what He did – He took Elijah up to heaven.

Now, why was there the place called Bosom of Abraham? Why does the Church teach that souls were waiting there until the Jesus Christ released them from there after his horrible death?

Eventually all souls are released from purgatory. As I keep saying, it is a common Catholic belief (see here, here, here & here and I’m sure many other places) that FUTURE prayers can be applied to a soul. If that is the case why does any soul go to purgatory since they will eventually receive enough prayers to obtain their release?

Look, Sir Knight, you take a passage and with your human limited intellect conclude that it wouldn’t make sense for God to do something.

I did that or did you do that? I took God to say what He means and when His Holy Word says that He took someone to heaven, I do not limit what God can and can not do.

However much I read it I don’t see why but perhaps you can’t make sense of it.

Because the bible says that he was taken up to heaven and it is a Catholic belief that future events in time can be applied to pasts actions when they are viewed in eternity.

But that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t make sense to God.

Right back at ya It doesn’t mean that what I am saying does not make sense to God.

That’s something I hear from non-Christians all the time. You know things like: “God could have done better”, “This doesn’t make sense, God woudn’t do it.” etc.

I’m not saying that God could have done better or worse. I’m saying that God did what He said that He did.

Because of this you reject the idea that this was happened and you logically find yourself contradicting the teaching of the Church and the Bible.

That’s just it my idea does not contradict either the bible or church teaching while your idea does contradict the bible. Which do you think is more likely to be correct? An idea which is in keeping with church teaching but in conflict with the bible or an idea which is not in conflict with either?

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t know if the church teaches it but we should believe it because the bible says it and nowhere does the church specifically say that it isn’t so.

Actually, the Church is very specific that nobody ever went to Heaven before the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Elijah went to the afterlife in a chariot of fire, but he could not have gone to the Heaven of the Beatific Vision until after the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, along with all of the other Old Testament Saints.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

For what logical purpose would Elijah had been taken up to the sky? To preach to the birds? Or to outer space? To establish a space colony?

Being taken to the sky was a means of leaving the place where he was and it does not identify the final destiny of Elijah ie. where he was taken. I will assume he joined Moses and other righteous Jews.

You see, God often works with symbols and through the material world. He didn’t have to speak to Moses through a burning bush. He could just make him KNOW. He could make Elijah disappear in an instant but instead he left the physical realm in a Chariot of Fire.

As for reasons. I don’t know. It might be a symbol. If nothing, this manner of departure certainly glorifies God.

It has nothing to do with JUDGING God’s intentions. God gave us a mind to think & reason and there would have been no logical reason to take Elijah into outer space. Therefore, we can REASON that heaven means “heaven with God”.

First, how can you say that there have been no logical reason? Because you were given reason and you don’t see it?

Does the fact that you were given reason yet don’t understand the Trinity mean that it doesn’t exist?

But perhaps you don’t see a reason so it makes sense thinking that it might mean literally heaven. Yet at this point you realize that this goes against the Church and you make up an assumption that cannot be supported by neither the Scripture nor the Patristic Writing. This is where it stops making any sense. This is where I think you should go back where you started and rather assume that your lack of understanding of the reason for the action doesn’t mean that the action didn’t take place.

As I said in my first post on this topic, I haven’t studied this topic previously. I am merely expressing my opinion of what makes logical sense and is in keeping with the CCC and the bible.

Well, it’s hanging on the edge. I guess that’s what we call heterodoxy. You don’t go as far as to fall into heresy but you are not there.

As for it making logical sense, I beg to differ. You still will need to explain the necessity of the Limbo of Fathers (and why they waited there for Jesus) and other issues.

Christ’s Sacrifice was greater than any of our prayers. Therefore, it should have a greater effect than any of our prayers. If our FUTURE prayers can be used before they are said, then how much more so the Sacrifice of Christ.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Our prayers and Christ’s Sacrifice are of two different natures and are governed by different laws even though one is greater than the other.

I don’t know if the church teaches it but we should believe it because the bible says it and nowhere does the church specifically say that it isn’t so.

1. Bible doesn’t say it! Bible says that he was taken to shamayim, which has many meaning such as Christian heaven, sky or outer space.
2. You are correct that this idea isn’t specifically condemned by the Church. Of course I don’t think it fully fits with (or at least explains) everything the Church teaches.
3. Think about it. You are saying that the passage doesn’t make sense and that the only sound explanation is that he went to Heaven. Surely you are not the first person to read this passage and think about it or study the Bible. If you are correct then all those great Church Fathers, theologians and Popes of the Church must have thought the same and they had enough time to realize what you did. Why is this teaching not found in the Church? If you must make such a theory in order not to contradict the Bible why was it not suggested by the Church? Of course I might be ignorant of it in which case please show me. So right now I’m waiting for some support so I know that is not a wild theory that you came up with.

As I said, it has been mentioned on this board more than once that our future prayers are used by God to current events. I have yet to see anyone dispute that claim. Thus, the conclusion that I have drawn is that that belief is correct. If I wasn’t on a slow dial-up, I’d go searching to find the specific threads where it was mentioned.

Well, as far as I know, the Church is silent on this subject. But since God knows our prayers beforehand he may as well respond to them before we pray. I think he does it sometimes with other things as well. As for the believe to be correct, I wouldn’t conclude that based on what is the popular believe. I might look into it later on. But I think it’s entirely possible.

Exactly. And the bible tells us what He did – He took Elijah up to heaven.

The English translation of the Bible says heaven. But the actual Bible says shamayim, which among other **things **means Heaven.

And if you notice in my previous posts I gave you examples where even when the English translation says heaven it doesn’t always mean Christian Heaven.

Eventually all souls are released from purgatory. As I keep saying, it is a common Catholic belief (see here, here, here & here and I’m sure many other places) that FUTURE prayers can be applied to a soul. If that is the case why does any soul go to purgatory since they will eventually receive enough prayers to obtain their release?

They go there to be purified. The prayers then may “shorten” the purgatorial cleansing (if we speak in human terms). If then we assume that future prayers do work and we take a very legalistic stance (for the purpose of our discussion) then we can assume that if the person gathers enough prayers he may not go to purgatory. Of course this only works we we take this very simplistic legalistic view which however hope explains the difference.

I did that or did you do that? I took God to say what He means and when His Holy Word says that He took someone to heaven, I do not limit what God can and can not do.

Look, you concluded that something he said doesn’t make sense so you took the other road which clearly contradicts the Church. **So you created an assumption **and based your theory on it so you could avoid falling into heresy while while not having to accept that something without understanding it.

Because the bible says that he was taken up to heaven and it is a Catholic belief that future events in time can be applied to pasts actions when they are viewed in eternity.

No (I already explain that bit) and show me support for that part. Note that you say future events in general and not future prayers.

And also note that the Church teaches that the Jews waited for Christ so he would open heaven. If the sacrifice would be infinite in both directions in terms of time then it would clearly eliminate this teaching.

Right back at ya It doesn’t mean that what I am saying does not make sense to God.

That’s true but I think you misunderstood what I’m saying.

I’m not saying that God could have done better or worse. I’m saying that God did what He said that He did.

But you’re saying that God surely didn’t do something because you don’t understand. So you make your own theory to avoid it.

That’s just it my idea does not contradict either the bible or church teaching while your idea does contradict the bible.

Yet you still failed to explain the necessity of the Limbo of Father and why the Jews waited there for Jesus to open the Gates to Heaven.

EDIT:

Plus CCC states:
#633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the Poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”. “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when He descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before Him.

So did Elijah wait in Sheol for the redeemer? Did he descand for him into hell?

The more I think about it the more I believe that even with your gymnastics you’re going agaists the Church and is not even heterodox.

Which do you think is more likely to be correct? An idea which is in keeping with church teaching but in conflict with the bible or an idea which is not in conflict with either?

I refuse to answer this question because it’s a false dichotomy.

By the way, there is a mistake you’re making the whole time and that is separating the Church from the Bible.

 

[LilyM]

The idea of Limbo of the Fathers is neither contradictory to the Bible nor to the Catechism. It is well supported by both.

Your interpretation of ‘heaven’ is too narrow even in the modern English understanding of the word. Let alone the original language it was written in - which gives the word a broader meaning still. You are failing to understand exactly what God DID say in the Bible in regard to Elijah.

And remember that the Church is the final arbiter of Biblical interpretation, not yourself. And the Church, being well aware of the manner of Elijah’s departure, and what the Bible has to say about it, and well aware of all these other theories about the application of Christ’s death and our prayers, continue to teach as they have always taught.

Which is that Eljah, along with all other righteous Jews before Christ’s time, indeed had to remain in Limbo of the Fathers until Christ’s death opened up the heaven of God’s presence to them. To say otherwise is to make a mockery of the entire IDEA of Limbo of the Fathers, since the only reason it existed was because these people had to wait for Christ to precede them into heaven. And contrary to Catholic teaching.

And as already asked - show us where the Church teaches that Christ’s sacrifice operated retroactively in Elijah’s case - or any case - so as to eliminate the necessity of them waiting in Limbo of the Fathers for His death and resurrection.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Actually, the Church is very specific that nobody ever went to Heaven before the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Elijah went to the afterlife in a chariot of fire, but he could not have gone to the Heaven of the Beatific Vision until after the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, along with all of the other Old Testament Saints.

When Elijah passed from time into eternity, the Resurrection of Jesus already happened even though it was still centuries away. So there is no conflict with church teaching.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Yep, LilyM!

I thought about it once more and I will take back all the heterodoxy statement. This idea is clearly AGAINST the Church.

The Church teaches that ALL stayed in the Sheol and waited for Christ who came there after his death on the Cross.

Sir Knight it essentially claming that the FUTURE Sacrifice was applied to the PAST, thus allowing Elijah to go to Heaven.

BUT that would clearly eliminate the possibility that he went to Sheol to wait for the redeemer, which ALL did.

**Either **he was taken to Heaven **or **he went to Hades to await the comming of Jesus Christ. Either the Bible and the Church contradict or you are incorrect.

Thus we must conclude that it’s a heresy. Sir Knight, don’t clearly you see it?

In Christ,
~G

 

[LilyM]

When Elijah passed from time into eternity, the Resurrection of Jesus already happened even though it was still centuries away. So there is no conflict with church teaching.

There’s absolutely no Church teaching that the merits of it were applied to open heaven to Elijah or to anyone else prior to the time of its actual happening. All the Church teaching is entirely the opposite. So yes you are in conflict.

 

[jmcrae]

When Elijah passed from time into eternity, the Resurrection of Jesus already happened even though it was still centuries away. So there is no conflict with church teaching.

Explain, then, why that never happened to anyone else?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

When Elijah passed from time into eternity, the Resurrection of Jesus already happened even though it was still centuries away. So there is no conflict with church teaching.

If this is true then souls didn’t go to Hades to wait for Jesus because once they passed from the physical realm into eternity they were already redeemed by the Sacrifice that stretched in both directions.

Thus you are going against the Church who teaches that there was Hades and that souls went there to wait for Jesus.

 

[LilyM]

Just had a brainwave, guys.

Clearly when we die we don’t always immediately enter eternity. This is true today - Purgatory is a temporary state, finite, not the eternal destination of the souls who go through it. So the souls who go there can’t possibly have yet entered into God’s eternity where Christ’s sacrifice is ever-present.

So the problem seems to be, SK, that you assume (pardon the pun), incorrectly, that Elijah was assumed into his final eternal destination. No basis at all to assume (pun intended this time) that this was true in his case.

Now even more clearly Limbo of the Fathers was, just like Purgatory is now, a temporary non-eternal state - it was never designed to be the final destination of the people who ended up there. So souls, including Elijah, went to this temporary non-eternal place or state after death rather than their final eternal destination. The church clearly teaches, though, that ALL righteous souls before Christ’s time went there for a time!

Hope this clears things up.