Was Anyone Allowed in Heaven before Christ?

[Sir_Knight]

Yep, LilyM!

I thought about it once more and I will take back all the heterodoxy statement. **This idea is clearly AGAINST **the Church.

The Church teaches that **ALL **stayed in the Sheol and waited for Christ who came there after his death on the Cross.

Sir Knight it essentially claming that the FUTURE Sacrifice was applied to the PAST, thus allowing Elijah to go to Heaven.

BUT that would clearly eliminate the possibility that he went to Sheol to wait for the redeemer, which ALL did.

**Either **he was taken to Heaven **or **he went to Hades to await the comming of Jesus Christ. Either the Bible and the Church contradict or you are incorrect.

Thus we must conclude that it’s a heresy. Sir Knight, don’t clearly you see it?

In Christ,
~G

There’s absolutely no Church teaching that the merits of it were applied to open heaven to Elijah or to anyone else prior to the time of its actual happening. All the Church teaching is entirely the opposite. So yes you are in conflict.

Then please explain to me why the bible says that Elijah was taken up to heaven? Heaven can not mean the sky nor outer space in this case because it would make any sense for him to have been taken there. So, again, why does the bible say that he was taken to heaven?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Explain, then, why that never happened to anyone else?

Because the bible says that only Elijah was taken up to heaven.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Then please explain to me why the bible says that Elijah was taken up to heaven? Heaven can not mean the sky nor outer space in this case because it would make any sense for him to have been taken there. So, again, why does the bible say that he was taken to heaven?

(Emphasis mine)

It wouldn’t make sense for him to **be **there? Does the passage say that he was installed in *shamayim *(however you translate it) and stayed there? Or does it merely refer to the manner in which he left the Earth or how people saw him leaving the Earth? Does it really speak about destination or merely the direction in which he was seen leaving?

In other words he was standing there and the flaming chariot came, lift him up to disappear in the horizon. That’s how God took him from Earth. You see it as if it gave you any idea where he went. No, the passage doesn’t give us any clues where he went, only how he left. We can only assume that God took him to Hades.

Let’s use a real life example. Imagine you are standing at the airport and your friend is in a plane. The plane takes of and disappears in the sky. Using a more poetic language or the language of the ancient people you would say that he was lifted to the sky. Would that make sense? Yes it would. Would that mean that the plane is still hanging in the sky, probably forever? No, you are describing the way you see him leaving independently of the fact that is is actually being taken somewhere (especially if you don’t know where he is going). Your friend might be going to Mexico so he will end up in Mexico in few hours but you don’t know there. All that the plane took him to the sky and from there he he is going to some unidentified location.

Elijah, unlike your friend, wasn’t going to any physical destination. Hades nor Heaven are physical places. So, God made him physically leave in a chariot to end up in a non-physical place. Why did he physically take him to a non-physical place? Does that make sense? Yes! Does it make sense for God to lift up Elijah to the sky and then take him to Hades! Certainly!

I hope this makes sense.

In Christ,
~G

PS: You still haven’t answered my questions which I asked in my earlier posts.

• Such as why are you the “only one” who has this problem (at least no one significant) and is forced to make up a theory? Were the others too blind? Or were they not studying the scripture enough? We they not thinking about the passage in James when they read that he was taken to the sky?
• How does that not contradict the teaching that ALL waiting in Hades for the redeemer who came down to them after his death?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Because the bible says that only Elijah was taken up to heaven.

First the Bible says shamayim.

Second, that’s not an answer. He asked you why it hasn’t happened to anyone else, not what the Bible says about Elijah (and to be honest, you’ve been asked this question many many times yet you purposefully seem to ignore it). Since we however actually disagree on what the Bible says (or what the word shamayim should translate to) this answer doesn’t even make sense to any of us.

 

[pprimeau1976]

You should know very well that the Church does not necessarily mean “all” when she says “all”. St. Paul tells us that ALL have sinned and have falled short of the Glory of God, yet the Church teaches that Mary is sinless.

Yep, LilyM!

I thought about it once more and I will take back all the heterodoxy statement. **This idea is clearly AGAINST **the Church.

The Church teaches that **ALL **stayed in the Sheol and waited for Christ who came there after his death on the Cross.

Sir Knight it essentially claming that the FUTURE Sacrifice was applied to the PAST, thus allowing Elijah to go to Heaven.

BUT that would clearly eliminate the possibility that he went to Sheol to wait for the redeemer, which ALL did.

**Either **he was taken to Heaven **or **he went to Hades to await the comming of Jesus Christ. Either the Bible and the Church contradict or you are incorrect.

Thus we must conclude that it’s a heresy. Sir Knight, don’t clearly you see it?

In Christ,
~G

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I was trying to search for what Church Father say about Eliah. Some mention him but really don’t give any clues. But now look at what Cyril of Jerusalem says!

[Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, Lecture 14]
Remember that Enoch was translated Hebrews 11:5; but Jesus ascended: remember what was said yesterday concerning Elias, that Elias was taken up in a chariot of fire 2 Kings 2:11; but that the chariots of Christ are ten thousand-fold even thousands upon thousands: and that Elias was taken up, towards the east of Jordan; but that Christ ascended at the east of the brook Cedron: and that **Elias went as into heaven; but **Jesus, into heaven: and that Elias said that a double portion in the Holy Spirit should be given to his holy disciple; but that Christ granted to His own disciples so great enjoyment of the grace of the Holy Ghost, as not only to have It in themselves, but also, by the laying on of their hands, to impart the fellowship of It to them who believed.

…

And thus you will be reminded of His pre-eminence, by the thought that a servant of Christ was caught up to the third heaven. For if Elias attained as far as the first heaven, but Paul as far as the third, the latter, therefore, has obtained a more honourable dignity.

What is the third heaven? The Christian Heaven!

**2 Corinthians 12:2-3 **
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows—

The first heaven is sky and the second is outer space.

Hmmmmm…so, Sir Knight, has this great Church Father missed the completely OBVIOUS? Or could it perhaps be the other way around?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

You should know very well that the Church does not necessarily mean “all” when she says “all”. St. Paul tells us that ALL have sinned and have falled short of the Glory of God, yet the Church teaches that Mary is sinless.

Are you comparing St. Paul’s writing that is full of non-literal and uses, let’s say, a more casual language with a **document **produced by the Church to give us clear and straight forward summary of what we are to believe? So now whenever Church produces a document that uses the word ‘all’, will you just say:“Well, they clearly don’t mean all. I mean, St. Paul used all and he wasn’t literal!”?

And going to argue that Jesus is also not literal?

John 3:13
“No one has gone up to Heaven except the One who came down from there– the Son of Man”

 

[pprimeau1976]

Are you comparing St. Paul’s writing that is full of non-literal and uses, let’s say, a more casual language with a **document **produced by the Church to give us clear and straight forward summary of what we are to believe? So now whenever Church produces a document that uses the word ‘all’, will you just say:“Well, they clearly don’t mean all. I mean, St. Paul used all and he wasn’t literal!”?

And going to argue that Jesus is also not literal?

John 3:13
“No one has gone up to Heaven except the One who came down from there– the Son of Man”

I just doubt that you have a clear understanding of what the Church was teaching when it made that statement. I think that *ordinarily *prior to Christ opening the gates of heaven, people went to Sheol when they died. However, God did allow for extraordinary events such as when he took Enoch and Elijah.

Now, we can debate forever as to which heaven Elijah was taken to, but if you read the footnote for Genesis 5:24 (the one that described Enoch being taken by God), it says the following:

In place of the usual formula, Then he died, the change to Enoch walked with God clearly implies that he did not die, but like Elijah (2 Kings 2:11, 12) was taken alive to God’s abode. (emphasis mine)

To me, this footnote clearly states the “heaven” that Enoch and Elijah were taken to. If you disagree, you should take it up with the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

I just doubt that you have a clear understanding of what the Church was teaching when it made that statement. I think that ordinarily prior to Christ opening the gates of heaven, people went to Sheol when they died. However, God did allow for extraordinary events such as when he took Enoch and Elijah.

No he did not. The Bible and the Chuch constantly teach that no one had acess to heaven before Christ. If I don’t have a clear understanding of what the Church teaches on the matter then please show me at least one, just one single line where the Church teaches that there were exeptions. If you will find at least an assertion that an acception is possible then I will drop my case. If you cannot find any, who am I to believe doesn’t have a clear understanding of the Church teaches?

The Cathechism was quoted numerous time and it is very clear on this issue. But the Cathechism is a relativelly recent document and it only restates what the Church tought for 2000 years.

Now, we can debate forever as to which heaven Elijah was taken to, but if you read the footnote for Genesis 5:24 (the one that described Enoch being taken by God), it says the following:

To me, this footnote clearly states the “heaven” that Enoch and Elijah were taken to. If you disagree, you should take it up with the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine.

Well first, the passage doesn’t tell us where Enoch went. All the passage says is that he was taken by God, meaning he did not die or at least his body didn’t stay behind. So there is absolutely no way you can read this and think that he was taken to Heaven. As for the commentary: Clearly they were both taken to Heaven alive. Does the commentary say when that happen? No! It was only after Jesus came for them. I think the commentary is trying to emphasize the fact that they entered heaven with their bodies without ever loosing them - now that if of course after the were released from Hades.

 

[Sir_Knight]

No he did not. The Bible and the Chuch constantly teach that no one had acess to heaven before Christ.

But it WASN’T before Christ. That is what I am saying. When time folds over into eternity, the moment that Elijah was taken up to heaven is the SAME moment that Christ died on the cross and it’s the same moment that Jesus rose from the dead and the same moment that Jesus was born in the stable and the same moment that man walked on the moon and the same moment that Moses crossed the red sea. Etc. Thus, there is no conflict with scripture or church teaching.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

But it WASN’T before Christ. That is what I am saying. When time folds over into eternity, the moment that Elijah was taken up to heaven is the SAME moment that Christ died on the cross and it’s the same moment that Jesus rose from the dead and the same moment that Jesus was born in the stable and the same moment that man walked on the moon and the same moment that Moses crossed the red sea. Etc. Thus, there is no conflict with scripture or church teaching.

Ok, this debate is getting us nowhere. There is a conflict!

Everytime someone reaises a relevant point you do not answer it. Every time someone shows you that what you say doesn’t make sense and asks you to explain it you do not do that. All you’re doing is repeating one and the same thing.

I told you what all I could. You can go back and see all the question that I asked you which you haven’t answered. Answer them or leave them, that’s your decision. But I’m sure you read them and your silence suggests a lot. If you do not have an explanation I have to wonder how serious you’re with this debate and your idea.

Pax,
~G

PS: Just in case you really somehow missed (thought I don’t see how that can happen) the questions here they are:

1.) You are saying that the passage doesn’t make sense and that the only sound explanation is that he went to Heaven. Surely you are not the first person to read this passage and think about it or study the Bible. If you are correct then all those great Church Fathers, theologians and Popes of the Church must have thought the same and they had enough time to realize what you did. Why is this teaching not found in the Church? If you must make such a theory in order not to contradict the Bible why was it not suggested by the Church? Of course I might be ignorant of it in which case please show me but as far as I know the only real reference to the idea if by Cyril of Jerusalem who says that he didn’t go to Heaven (post #66)

2.) What is the purpose of Hades and why are we taught that everyone went there before the resurrection? How come it applied only to Elijah and not the others?

 

[hilde_the_dog]

Okay at the Transfiguarion where did Moses and Elijah come from?

 

[Sir_Knight]

Look. My problem with this whole this is that the bible says that he was taken to heaven. Heaven can not mean the sky or outer space because that just doesn’t make any sense. As pprimeau1976 pointed out, he was taken to “God’s abode”.

The ONLY answer that does not conflict with neither scripture or church teaching is what I have been saying. Every other answer introduces a conflict between church teaching and what the bible says.

My answer presents no such conflict. If you wish to believe something that conflicts with scripture, you are free to do so. I’ll believe something that doesn’t present any conflict with either scripture or church teaching.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Okay at the Transfiguarion where did Moses and Elijah come from?

That’s an excellent point. They were already in a glorified state – further showing that the passage of time here on earth is entirely different in eternity.

 

[Sir_Knight]

You are saying that the passage doesn’t make sense and that the only sound explanation is that he went to Heaven. Surely you are not the first person to read this passage and think about it or study the Bible. If you are correct then all those great Church Fathers, theologians and Popes of the Church must have thought the same and they had enough time to realize what you did. Why is this teaching not found in the Church? If you must make such a theory in order not to contradict the Bible why was it not suggested by the Church? Of course I might be ignorant of it in which case please show me but as far as I know the only real reference to the idea if by Cyril of Jerusalem who says that he didn’t go to Heaven (post #66)

Explain the Catholic belief that God takes our future prayers and applies them to the present or past events? Why can not the same thing be done with Christ’s death on the cross? Christ’s death on the cross is greater than any of our prayer – thus is must have an even greater impact on time & eternity.

 

[jmcrae]

Okay at the Transfiguarion where did Moses and Elijah come from?

I don’t know. In the past, I have speculated in my own mind that Moses was taken from the mountain where God was giving him the Ten Commandments, and that Elijah was taken from the cave where he was hiding out and wondering where God was.

However, the more likely explanation is that they were in Hades, and that they were anticipating Christ’s death and resurrection with great joy. Christ was letting them in on the details so that they could fulfill their prophetic mission and let the other residents of Hades know that their release was coming very soon.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Okay at the Transfiguarion where did Moses and Elijah come from?

From Hades, which is where all went before Jesus “descended to Hell” and opened the gates to Heaven.

 

[jmcrae]

Explain the Catholic belief that God takes our future prayers and applies them to the present or past events? Why can not the same thing be done with Christ’s death on the cross? Christ’s death on the cross is greater than any of our prayer – thus is must have an even greater impact on time & eternity.

Yes, but in the case of prayer, this phenomenon applies to everyone equally.

If your theory holds water, then there should never have been anyone in Hades. They should have all been translated to the moment after the Resurrection, and brought straight into Heaven.

Again, why only Elijah?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Look. My problem with this whole this is that the bible says that he was taken to heaven. Heaven can not mean the sky or outer space because that just doesn’t make any sense.

I disagree. I asked you why and I’m still waiting for a complete answer. All I learned is that it can’t be anything else because it doesn’t make sense since that would that he “preached to the birds”. In post #63 I explained that this is not the case. Sorry, but I’m expecting you will show me how this post doesn’t make sense. Thanks.

As pprimeau1976 pointed out, he was taken to “God’s abode”.

That’s correct, but only after Christ died on the Cross.

The ONLY answer that does not conflict with neither scripture or church teaching is what I have been saying. Every other answer introduces a conflict between church teaching and what the bible says.

This was said many times and the issue deeper. I ask you to discuss those deeper issues, such as in the paragraph above.

My answer presents no such conflict.

No. There are conflicts and I outlined them. You haven’t answered.

If you wish to believe something that conflicts with scripture, you are free to do so.

Have you stopped at least for a second and wondered why the Church is teaching things “contrary to the scripture”? Have wondered why for example Cyril of Jerusalem was so dumb not to see the obvious contradiction that which you see so clearly? He clearly believe that heaven was referring to the sky.

I’ll believe something that doesn’t present any conflict with either scripture or church teaching.

That’s what all the protestant tell us every day on this board. But they are wrong.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

(1) Explain the Catholic belief that God takes our future prayers and applies them to the present or past events? (2) Why can not the same thing be done with Christ’s death on the cross? (3) Christ’s death on the cross is greater than any of our prayer – thus is must have an even greater impact on time & eternity.

First, does that answer my question?

Second, we already went over this.

1.) To simplify, here is how I see it. God know future and so he is able to grant us future prayers if for example by the time we ask for it it would be too late (say the person would already be out of purgatory).

2.) It cannot happen with death on the cross because prayers and his death are two different things. If God sits on his throne and he might say: “Well, Bob will offer a mass for his parents in a month when he is able to but since his parents woun’t stay in Purgatory that long I will grant them their wish now”. Ok, I’m fine with that. That might happen, I don’t know if it does, but why not, right?

The nature of Christ Sacrifice is something else. His sacrifice was not a mere prayer when Son asked if Father would be so kind and could let people go to Heaven.

He also cannot be aplied the same way because the Bible and the Chuch say so.

1. Your logic doesn’t make sense – you draw illogical conclusions. You falsly assume that the two things can be compared with each other. They are not.