Was Ignatiuus of Antioch right?

[BartBurk]

This passage certainly helped me to see the truth of the Catholic Church. I presented several passages in the Bible to my Mormon family members regarding the Real Presence and was told, “The Bible is just hearsay.” I’m sure that would be the same reaction I would get from them if I showed them Ignatius’ teaching. Some folks just don’t want to be Catholic (even though some of them were before becoming Mormon). Catholic=bad to them and they are not open to truth at all.

 

[myredeemerlives]

Consider those who hold heretical opinions with regard to the grace of Jesus Christ…

Now I want to hear from these so called heretical people… could they be people who believed saved by grace alone? And before the reformation… THAT would be interesting.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Where does the authority of your new church (Unitarian) come from? How can you be easily convinced that whatever they teach you is true?

Ultimate responsibility for an individual’s beliefs is the individual’s. There is no higher authority.

I decided years ago that I couldn’t support some of the Catholic Church’s positions because I knew, in my heart of hearts, that it was wrong. How could I say to myself, “I really don’t believe this is right, but I’ll go along with it anyway.” That defense went away at Nuremberg.

 

[Peter_J]

I decided years ago that I couldn’t support some of the Catholic Church’s positions because I knew, in my heart of hearts, that it was wrong. How could I say to myself, “I really don’t believe this is right, but I’ll go along with it anyway.” That defense went away at Nuremberg.

Don’t worry, I wouldn’t ask you to pretend to believe something you didn’t actually believe.

Personally, I believe the Catholic Church’s claims, so I have no need to pretend to believe them.

 

[Chris258]

Consider those who hold heretical opinions with regard to the grace of Jesus Christ…

Now I want to hear from these so called heretical people… could they be people who believed saved by grace alone? And before the reformation… THAT would be interesting.

You are aware that the Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace alone, yes?

 

[Angelos]

Ultimate responsibility for an individual’s beliefs is the individual’s. There is no higher authority.

I decided years ago that I couldn’t support some of the Catholic Church’s positions because I knew, in my heart of hearts, that it was wrong. How could I say to myself, “I really don’t believe this is right, but I’ll go along with it anyway.” That defense went away at Nuremberg.

The idea that everyone can work out his/her salvation individually was essentially the teaching of another individual. Why do you follow the teachings of a church founded by another “individual” rather than establish your purely individual church?

 

[cheese_sdc]

The idea that everyone can work out his/her salvation individually was essentially the teaching of another individual. Why do you follow the teachings of a church founded by another “individual” rather than establish your purely individual church?

I think that if you look at the Unitarian Universalist Church, that is pretty close to what they do.

 

[Angelos]

I think that if you look at the Unitarian Universalist Church, that is pretty close to what they do.

… but this does not change the fact that Unitarian church is the church of another individual. Its tenets do not originally belong to you. That church teaches you to believe the way you do now. Who gave them that authority?

 

[cheese_sdc]

… but this does not change the fact that Unitarian church is the church of another individual. Its tenets do not originally belong to you. That church teaches you to believe the way you do now. Who gave them that authority?

Ah. I think I understand.

The UU church has no doctrine, dogma, or religious teaching.

Instead it has seven principles.

• The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
• Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
• Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
• The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
• The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
• Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

 

[Angelos]

Ah. I think I understand.

The UU church has no doctrine, dogma, or religious teaching.

Instead it has seven principles.

• The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
• Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
• Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
• The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
• The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
• Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Why is it called Unitarian then? Could one believing in the Trinity be a member of that church?

 

[cheese_sdc]

Why is it called Unitarian then? Could one believing in the Trinity be a member of that church?

They accept just about everybody.

 

[SCALCO]

Ah. I think I understand.

The UU church has no doctrine, dogma, or religious teaching.

Instead it has seven principles.

• The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
• Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
• Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
• A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
• The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
• The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
• Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

These principles do not conflict with the Catholic Church, I don’t think, other than the use of the “democratic process” and maybe the goal of world peace…

 

[prodigal-sun]

Jim Jones: (Cult leader, had nothing to with religion, had everything to do with money & power!
Osama Bin Laden: Religious idealogue, Closest thing we have to religious war. though I have to suspect his motives. Are they truly religious… Maybe!

Ayatollah Khomeini Not sure what you are refering to here?

The ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia. War was 100% over wealth and property had nothing to do with religion!

These guys.

Charles Manson: religion? in What regard?

Pick any religious war in history.

Well if we picked a religious war then we would agree with you. I would say that most wars are fought because of Greed, Pride, Hate etc. and not for religious purposes.

YOu name one and we will see if we agree.

 

[cheese_sdc]

Well if we picked a religious war then we would agree with you. I would say that most wars are fought because of Greed, Pride, Hate etc. and not for religious purposes.

YOu name one and we will see if we agree.

Please to be reviewing your logical fallacies.

“No True Scotsman”

All of individuals named above, in some way or another, claimed to be “men of God” and used that claim to gain power over others.

 

[myredeemerlives]

You are aware that the Catholic Church teaches salvation by grace alone, yes?

And what happens if you commit a mortal sin?

We see saved by grace a lot differently than you do. When Jesus said it was finished, we believe he meant it.

 

[Chris258]

And what happens if you commit a mortal sin?

We see saved by grace a lot differently than you do. When Jesus said it was finished, we believe he meant it.

And who among us seems to be viewing grace as the Church fathers thought of it? Who has introduced the innovation?

You don’t believe in “Once Saved, Always Saved” but to set the stage with some clarity:

Therefore, dearly beloved, we too have received of the Spirit of Christ; and Christ dwells in us, accordingly as it is written that the Spirit said through the mouth of the prophet as follows: “I will dwell among them, and will walk about among them.” Let us, therefore, prepare our temples for the Spirit of Christ; and let us not grieve Him, so that He will not depart from us. Remember the word of the Apostle, when he warns us, “Grieve not the Holy Spirit, in whom you have been signed unto the day of redemption.” For from Baptism we receive the Spirit of Christ. At that same moment in which the priests invoke the Spirit, heaven opens, and He descends and rests upon the waters; and those who are baptized are clothed in Him. For the Spirit is absent from all those who are born of the flesh, until they come to the water of re-birth; and then they receive the Holy Spirit.

…From that man, however, who received the Spirit from the water and then grieved Him, – He departs from him until the man dies; and then in accord with His nature He returns to Christ and accuses the man of having grieved Him.
–Aphraates, Treatises, 336-345 AD

Therefore, when someone falls from the Spirit through any wickedness – that grace indeed remains irrevocably with those who are willing to repent after such a fall. Otherwise, the one who has fallen is no longer in God, because that Holy Spirit and Advocate who is in God has deserted him.
–St. Athanasius, Discourses Against the Arians, 358-362 AD

Now for the idea of penance:

Just as those who pay money absolve a debt, nor are they free of the name of debtor until the whole amount, even to the last penny, is absolved by some kind of payment, so too by the compensation of love and of other virtuous actions, or by some kind of satisfaction, the penalty of sin is removed.
–St. Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on the Gospel of Luke, c. 389 AD

After they have been released from your severe sentence we separate from association at the altar those whose crimes are public, so that by repenting and by punishing themselves they may be able to placate Him for whom, by their sinning, they showed their contempt.
–St. Augustine of Hippo, Letter of Augustine to Macedonius the Imperial Vicar of Africa, c. 413 AD

Baptism was instituted for all sins; for light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted…

We are cleansed only once by Baptism; by prayer we are cleansed daily. But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the Body of Christ; perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities: that is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in Baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet, God does not forgive sins except to the baptized.
–St. Augustine, Sermon to Catechumens, on the Creed, c. 395 AD

I realize what the incontinent can say: …that if a man, accusing his wife of adultery, kills her, this sin, since it is finished and does not perdure in him, if it is committed by a catechumen, is absolved in Baptism; and, if it is done by one who is baptized, it is healed by Penance and reconciliation. Are we supposed to declare then, that adultery, committed without doubt if another wife is taken while the adulterous spouse still lives, is not adultery?
–St. Augustine, Adulterous Marriages, 419-420 AD

It certainly doesn’t seem like the early Church fathers believed “salvation by grace alone” conflicted with the idea that penance is necessary.

Why do you?

 

[myredeemerlives]

I believe what the EARLIER church believed… (you know the one before the so called early church fathers) the apostles!

As Paul said so clearly we are saved by grace, through faith, not of yourselves it is the gift of God. Eph 2 4

The wages of sin is DEATH, and Jesus paid that fine of my behalf on the cross.

“For without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sin.”

The price for my sins was paid in full when Jesus took my punishment upon Himself.

Isaiah 53: 5,6 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Hebrews 9:26 says “he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Ignatius spoke of bishops, not one bishop or a pope. An orthodox or anglican christian could easily read Ignatius’ writings here and glean a very different view from the Roman one. “bishop” and “eucharist” are not unique to Roman Catholicism.

 

[po18guy]

And it says what they did to resolve their disagreements too - that the bishops are the supreme authority and speak with God’s own authority and are to be submitted to in all humility.

And, look at the other, extremely un-Christian behaviors associated with those who did not believe. I vote Unity through obedience!

Christ’s peace.

 

[Chris258]

I believe what the EARLIER church believed… (you know the one before the so called early church fathers) the apostles!

Interesting.

I guess we Christians some 1700-1800 years later are just better equipped by the Holy Spirit to know the real revelation of the Apostles because we have texts excised from their oral preaching, whereas all the Apostles’ disciples and early Church fathers had were the Apostles’ teaching itself, passed down through both writing and preaching.

I guess Jesus was totally pulling our leg when he said his Church would endure until his coming and that the gates of Hell would never prevail against it, because, apparently, the discples of the Apostles just had a little too much wax in their ears to hear what the Apostles and Holy Spirit were really handing down to them.

Way to go St. Augustine and St. Ambrose. In record time, you helped ruin the Church.

I commend you, though. At least you’re not making some vague claim about the “real Church” going underground in the first 200 years until Luther or post-Reformation figure busts the “real Church” wide open some 1500-1800 years later.

…Or are you?