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myredeemerlives
Guest
No I don’t believe that but I do believe Luther was spot on. (if that’s who you are referring to)
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Chris258
Guest
This is getting away from the original issue you brought up: the early Church’s idea of “Salvation by Grace Alone”.
You apparently believe that the early Church fathers were still part of THE Church.
If the Church was already aware of and practiced Penance by the early 400s, then there are two possibilities going by what you’ve written:
Either the Church already fell into serious doctrinal error in the area of how the Christian is to handle sin (thus tied very intimately with Christian salvation) within a couple of centuries, maybe less. So the Church herself has already fallen into heresy concerning salvation and Christian sin.
OR
You believe the idea that doing Penance is an essential part of Christian life is incompatible with “Salvation by Grace Alone” because your understanding of that doctrine (and by extension, your interpretation of passages you claim support your notion of it) is unsound. And the early Church fathers were, indeed, preserving the faith of the Apostles when they exhorted Christians to do Penance.
Which is it?
po18guy
Well-known member
The thousands of martyrs, who allowed their blood to be shed rather than deny Christ, would disagree with you. In fact, they’re praying for you as we speak. We have the luxury of living in an age of fat, where we can choose to believe in or deny anything. That is, in this life. The next life is another issue altogether.
Christ’s peace on your journey.
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Eden
Guest
An ex-Unitarian Universalist on this forum has an interesting perspective:I think that if you look at the Unitarian Universalist Church, that is pretty close to what they do.
centerforinquiry.net/forums/viewthread/2624/
“The Universalists approached the Unitarians and suggested a merger because they were both quite liberal, socially. Unfortunately, the Unitarian hierarchy saw the money they would bring with them and got greedy. They merged and became the Unitarian Universalists. Since then the Universalist mafia has slowly taken over the adminstration of the denomination, and the Unitarian schools of theology. There has been a shift to the theological right to the point that they are now not very far left, theologically, of the Methodists.”
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cheese_sdc
Guest
Sorry, the number of deaths suffered b/c of an ideology do not a persuasive argument make. I could easily respond and say that millions of Communists died for what they believe in during the Great Patriot War (what they call World War II), or that thousands of Celts died for what they believe in (at the hands of the Romans), and that thousands of Muslims have died for what they believe in.
And I believe that you call all of those things “false religions/ideologies”.
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Mannyfit75
Guest
We were taught by God through his Church that we cannot have any different beliefs. However, since the Reformations, some Protestants have divided up and come up with a variety of doctrines that contradict each other. There is no unity in their churches compared to the Catholic Church…
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Our_Refuge
Guest
Let us not forget the early Church Father Irenaeus who wrote of Apostolic succession. Here he refers to Linus, the second Pope, who is mentioned in Paul’s letter to Timothy.
2 Tim 4:21 Do your best to come before winter. Eubu’lus sends greetings to you, as do Pudens and Linus and Claudia and all the brethren.
Irenaeus
Chapter III.—A refutation of the heretics, from the fact that, in the various Churches, a perpetual succession of bishops was kept up.
1.It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times….that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops…3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed **into the hands of Linus **the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. **To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. **This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles.”
Early Church Writings
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.iv.html
2 Tim 4:21 Do your best to come before winter. Eubu’lus sends greetings to you, as do Pudens and Linus and Claudia and all the brethren.
Irenaeus
Chapter III.—A refutation of the heretics, from the fact that, in the various Churches, a perpetual succession of bishops was kept up.
1.It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those who were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and [to demonstrate] the succession of these men to our own times….that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops…3. The blessed apostles, then, having founded and built up the Church, committed **into the hands of Linus **the office of the episcopate. Of this Linus, Paul makes mention in the Epistles to Timothy. **To him succeeded Anacletus; and after him, in the third place from the apostles, Clement was allotted the bishopric. **This man, as he had seen the blessed apostles, and had been conversant with them, might be said to have the preaching of the apostles still echoing [in his ears], and their traditions before his eyes. Nor was he alone [in this], for there were many still remaining who had received instructions from the apostles.”
Early Church Writings
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.iv.iv.html
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cheese_sdc
Guest
That is interesting. However, as I understand it, each UU church is autonomous and often goes differing ways. One church may be more atheistic, while another is quite theistic. Some concentrate on Earth based forms of spirituality. Some focus on more convention ideas of Divinity. The church I’ve been attending (still not a member) tends to be slightly theistic, but there are atheists there.
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Angelos
Guest
There must be chaos in that community of theists and atheists.
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cheese_sdc
Guest
po18guy
Well-known member
Well, what evvvvv…
You are making excuses. Make a choice, even the wrong one! Believe in something.
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Stylteralmaldo
Guest
I’m just posting here so my wife finds it some day and prays on what the early Church fathers wrote. She’s interested in reading up on Church history in the next phase of her relationship with Christ and the Church. What better place to start (outside of the Bible) than the writings of a man who knew the apostles personally.
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cheese_sdc
Guest
Not sure I follow you. I do believe in something. I just don’t use the statement that “X amount of people died believing it, therefore it must be Truth.”
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panoikei
Guest
Here’s an interesting question in trying to follow how you could end up UU.
What faith were your parents and which faith were you actually raised in. Also, were you Catholic and if so how far did you go…baptism, confirmation, communion, confession, marriage, holy orders? Your posiiton of even being on here is strange to me. Why would someone hang out on a Catholic forum if they claim to not be that which they reject? I came from the Church of Christ and only hang out with Catholic converts from the Church of Christ on another board. Here I look for other COCs that are asking big questions. I also have a Baptist and non-denomination [mixed faiths] background. I learned a lot about Orhtodox and have been learning more about Judaism over time. And if I had to put all of my eggs in one basket I’d be Catholic [Eastern or Western] or Orthodox. Whether Jews fail to admit it or not it is true that a lot of what we beleive falls withint Judaic traditions on many levels.
So the only reason I can see you leaving Christianity as such is a lack of faith…what causes a lack of faith? Usually pride. So many folks begin to beleive they are too smart for a God or they’re so tired of the arguments/friction between faiths that they throw in the towel for all the wrong reasons and do something that appears to accept all. It’s like the “mingling of the waters” stuff…sounds a little New Age. I don’t know a whole lot about UU but it sounds New Age. And I find New Age to be some of the craziest stuff out there. I work next to a lady that has abandoned her Baptist faith for New Age and she drives me crazy with all of her stuff…especially the anti-Catholic remarks. She knew me before we convert to Catholicism and has noted a significant change in me…one of anger and almost hate to much more peaceful now. It’s not coming home to the Catholic Church. RCIA did wonders for my faith. I’ve debated all of this for so many year…30 at least…that now I have a grasp of so much of it. Discovering the ECF…Patristic Fathers at least taught me that these Catholic beleives are legit if you believe in Christ Jesus as our savior. Othewise I’d be a raging mad lunitic ready to cut the throat of the next guy to climb to the top. Further, why have one wife when I can have lots of women for example. Why bother wasting my time with my children…they’re not really my problem just because you have som moreal code to follow. That’s your problem…good luck with that after I run you over because it feels good. NOW! I’m not saying that because I believe that but that IS wher that leads. That is how many of the Tyrants from the past were born. Rejection caused them inner pain and then they turned in their anger and selfish pride towards evil. Personally I really couldn’t live without God. I tend to beleive that if someone could actually prove my faith as false, I first kill them and then myself. Because life would truly be pointless then because this has never been easy for me. It’s been filled with too much pain for me. So God is a good thing. And it really helps to truly believe in Him. Sacraficial love.
Just rambling.
What faith were your parents and which faith were you actually raised in. Also, were you Catholic and if so how far did you go…baptism, confirmation, communion, confession, marriage, holy orders? Your posiiton of even being on here is strange to me. Why would someone hang out on a Catholic forum if they claim to not be that which they reject? I came from the Church of Christ and only hang out with Catholic converts from the Church of Christ on another board. Here I look for other COCs that are asking big questions. I also have a Baptist and non-denomination [mixed faiths] background. I learned a lot about Orhtodox and have been learning more about Judaism over time. And if I had to put all of my eggs in one basket I’d be Catholic [Eastern or Western] or Orthodox. Whether Jews fail to admit it or not it is true that a lot of what we beleive falls withint Judaic traditions on many levels.
So the only reason I can see you leaving Christianity as such is a lack of faith…what causes a lack of faith? Usually pride. So many folks begin to beleive they are too smart for a God or they’re so tired of the arguments/friction between faiths that they throw in the towel for all the wrong reasons and do something that appears to accept all. It’s like the “mingling of the waters” stuff…sounds a little New Age. I don’t know a whole lot about UU but it sounds New Age. And I find New Age to be some of the craziest stuff out there. I work next to a lady that has abandoned her Baptist faith for New Age and she drives me crazy with all of her stuff…especially the anti-Catholic remarks. She knew me before we convert to Catholicism and has noted a significant change in me…one of anger and almost hate to much more peaceful now. It’s not coming home to the Catholic Church. RCIA did wonders for my faith. I’ve debated all of this for so many year…30 at least…that now I have a grasp of so much of it. Discovering the ECF…Patristic Fathers at least taught me that these Catholic beleives are legit if you believe in Christ Jesus as our savior. Othewise I’d be a raging mad lunitic ready to cut the throat of the next guy to climb to the top. Further, why have one wife when I can have lots of women for example. Why bother wasting my time with my children…they’re not really my problem just because you have som moreal code to follow. That’s your problem…good luck with that after I run you over because it feels good. NOW! I’m not saying that because I believe that but that IS wher that leads. That is how many of the Tyrants from the past were born. Rejection caused them inner pain and then they turned in their anger and selfish pride towards evil. Personally I really couldn’t live without God. I tend to beleive that if someone could actually prove my faith as false, I first kill them and then myself. Because life would truly be pointless then because this has never been easy for me. It’s been filled with too much pain for me. So God is a good thing. And it really helps to truly believe in Him. Sacraficial love.
Just rambling.
po18guy
Well-known member
You appear to be an adherent of relativism. There is no relative truth between those given the chance to deny Christ or die, and those who fought out of fear of certain death for not fighting, if you get my drift.
Do you think most red army fighters were active communist party members and stepped forward to fight out of love of Marx, Lenin and Engles? Or was it a pragmatic choice to fight and possibly live versus refuse to fight and die right there?
Those martyrs (read about the 800 martyrs of Otranto, Italy) who had a choice of life, and chose death so as to avoid denying the One they loved did so out of that same love. The difference is love versus fear. Big difference.
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myredeemerlives
Guest
If you are genuinely searching for truth as to the existence of God then the bible is a good place to start but it’s also not the only place.
- The bible isn’t just one book, it’s many books written by many prophets over thousands of years and yet the message is one of unity. How did they do this? The bible claims it is inspired by the spirit of God… and when you study it as a whole it is very clear that no man (or men) over such a long period of time could have assembled it the way it is. They would have had to have been in constant contact with each other which was impossible as they lived at different times. Old testament books (which are proven to be written before Jesus’ time) predict a Messiah who will come, where he will be born and what he will do. Which of course, came to pass. Coincidence? The bible also lists future events (today!) with dead on accuracy. Do some searches on biblical prophecies and see how it aligns with history. It’s truly remarkable.
- There is no proof to support the theory of Evolution. A lot of “maybe’s” and “could have’s” but no actual proof. Darwin had no idea how the earth came into existence and also admitted that to look at the human eye and to suggest it evolved was crazy. Hello?
- There is plenty of evidence to suggest a world wide flood (where do you think all those fossils came from?)
All the best with your search.
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cheese_sdc
Guest
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3932956&postcount=68
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=251152
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3855443&postcount=31
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3849221&postcount=56
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3817834&postcount=64
In one of those threads I get a bit hot under the collar, but taken as a whole, they describe where I’ve been and where I am.
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cheese_sdc
Guest
Actually, there are incidents where Soviet troops, with full knowledge that the Germans would not take a communist prisoner (i.e. shot out of hand) went into battle proudly wearing their Communist Party badges. There are pictures of partisan bands (not likely to have a political officer in those!) displaying their Communist party badges.
And what of the Celts (I use them merely because they fought the Romans and died in large numbers but you could insert any religious group here), and the Muslims, and Protestants, and Albigensians, who died for their faith? What about the Jews? Millions of them died for their faith - does that mean that they’re right and Jesus was not the Messiah?
Sorry, I just don’t believe that body count = Truth.
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panoikei
Guest
AHHHhh! Cheeze…you are where I was 28 years ago. I nearly completely fell away form Christianity and a belief in God. It was heart breaking to see so many bad potential priests. But let me tell you something. It’s …going to a Knights ceremony…talk later…ooops…forgot.
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cheese_sdc
Guest
I agree. I have read much of the Bible, and while there are parts that are purely poetic and True, there are others that are less so.
I disagree, but that is a topic for a later time.
I disagree, but that is a topic for another time.
Err… While Flood Myths are present across cultures in the Middle East, I’m not sure if fossils prove a world wide flood.
Thanks.
I agree that there is a source of divinity in the world. You call it God. For reasons of my own, I have difficulty with that. I call it Tao, or Divinity, or usually, nothing at all.
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