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Catholic29
Guest
And the debate goes on…
Was it Right for Minn Archbishop to Censor Fr. Altier from Relevant Radio?
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Orionthehunter
Guest
And the subject of this thread is going to decrease dissention and anarchy? Isn’t the definition of anarchy when the chickens think they should be running the hen house?
Isn’t the overt presumption that the Archbishop had ulterior motives an example of dissension and anarchy? Unless presented with FACTS, don’t we think that we should at least be discrete w/ our thoughts rather than verbalizing our dissent?
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bones_IV
Guest
I’m just tired of all this corruption that has happened since Vatican II. I’m tired of Catholic unorthodoxy. Maybe Archbishop Flynn was right in doing what he did, I don’t know, nor do I think that what Flynn did was unorthodox. God will be the judge.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
I hear you. We all know that there have been missteps by the Church’s leaders, some w/ devastating results. But, none are perfect and I’m sure these challenges have occurred for 2,000 years. But we can rest in confident assurance that the Gates of Hell will not prevail.
IMHO, so many of the challenges are the result of Bishop’s not asserting their teaching authority. Nature abhors a vaccuum and it allowed non-inspired “messages” to fill the void. True and meaningful progress is when the flock is obedient and submissive to the Bishop’s. Now that they are asserting themselves more aggressively, we need to be more supportive.
I applaud you for admitting that was frustration. So few on here ever admit they might have been wrong or over-reacted.
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bones_IV
Guest
I admit that many Bishops have abused their clerical positions and took advantage of people.
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BobR
Guest
As a lifelong member of the Archdiocese of St. Paul and Minneapolis, I have to say I’m really tired of all the bashing of the archdiocese and our bishop. Consider:
*]The bishop’s reasons for limiting Fr. Altier’s media activities have not been made public.
*]I sould simply be a matter of a bishop guiding one of his priests in a way that best meets the needs of the parish and of the priest himself.
*]Perhaps the bishop just doesn’t think any assitant pastor should have a media ministry.
*]The bishop has not “silenced” Fr. Altier, who, like any other priest, continues to deliver homilies in his parish.
*]This archdiocese had 15 ordinations last year, and many more are in the pipeline. Archbishop Flynn has been personally active in recruiting seminarians and has directed that parishes pray for vocations weekly - these efforts are paying off.
It seems to me, watching the bishop’s actions over the last several years, that he is - as the church always does - thinking in the long term, developing a new generation of orthodox priests while patiently awaiting the retirement of the heterodox priests of the “it’s all about me generation”.
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Lurch104
Guest
Maybe you could explain why he banned the Legion of Christ and Regnum Chriati from the diocese? They are very orthodox, both PJPII and B16 love them, but somehow they are not good enough for the bishop.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
It is not our responsibility to explain or justify the Bishop’s action. We are to love and submit to the one given to us by the Pope (I live outside the diocese of MPLS & StPaul but in the archdiocese). If you want to know for your own information the reason, ask him. Since you don’t live in the archdiocese, it really is a matter between him and his flock and he has no obligation to say other than “I have my reasons”. Frankly, I mind my own business on such administrative matters in your diocese.
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Orionthehunter
Guest
As I said in an earlier post that I thought it was a cut and past mistake, this link is nearly verbatim of a letter from the Archbishop.
spiritdaily.com/altierbishopresponse.htm
P.S. This thread has hit a chord w/ me. People from other dioceses really need to be careful how they characterize and criticize Bishops not there own. A few decades ago, we had a Bishop who said some things that charitably the best I can say is I thought were “loopy.” Many at CAF would have been all over him and questioned his orthodoxy. However, if you had tried to find 10 people (conservative or liberal) in our diocese to say a bad thing about this good Holy Bishop, I think you’d have had to ask 20,000 practicing Catholics to find those ten people. If you aren’t here, you don’t know all the good things they do.
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BobR
Guest
I can’t explain it - it’s not something I know much about. I do know that the Legion of Christ has been somewhat deceptive in their approach to my son, who was at one time trying to discern whether or not he had vocation to the priesthood. Their cult-like recruiting methods left our family with a bad feeling. The contrast between their methods and Archbihop Flynn’s regarding prospective seminarians was like night and day.
The bishop’s reasons for the ban can be found in this article from the archdioces’ official newspaper.
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kaj3
Guest
In the St. Agnes bulletin a few weeks ago (where Fr. Altier is an assoc. pastor), the paster, Fr. Welzbacher stated that St. Agnes School would not be using the Talk About Touching program, but rather the Arlington-Harrisburg program. Fr. Welzbacher stated that he had it on good authority that the Arlington-Harrisburg program is the program that Archbishop Flynn prefers. So, if that is true – who knows? At the end of the day, it’s all speculation.
I might add, too (albeit a little OT), that I do not begrudge the Archbishop any credit for good being done in the diocese, however, I would look to the fact that the Twin Cities area – at last count – had the most perpetual adoration chapels than anywhere else in the country to explain the high number of new ordinates. Ordinates, who, by the way, are young, orthodox and in the JPII mold from what I’ve seen so far.
I might add, too (albeit a little OT), that I do not begrudge the Archbishop any credit for good being done in the diocese, however, I would look to the fact that the Twin Cities area – at last count – had the most perpetual adoration chapels than anywhere else in the country to explain the high number of new ordinates. Ordinates, who, by the way, are young, orthodox and in the JPII mold from what I’ve seen so far.
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Catholic29
Guest
But then of course there is the matter of St. Joan of Arc church in Minneapolis, which has yet to be brought back in line with the dictates of the Catechism. Check out their GLBT ministry page here: stjoan.com/glfr.htm
I also hear no word from Flynn’s office regarding the group “Catholic Pastoral Committee on Sexual Minorities or CPCSM” based in the Twin Cities. And here is their site: mtn.org/cpcsm/ which is also linked from St. Joan’s GLBT ministry page.
Though their may be much Good and Holy happening within the Mpls - St. Paul Archdiocese, its also has more than its fair share of dissent as well.
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Eileen_T
Guest
Yeah, and that was why I left the Church in my late teens, because every time I asked Why? I got fobbed off. This would be the equivalent of me telling my kids, "Because I said so… which I did not do because that would not be treating them with respect. I always explained the reasons behind my decisions so that they would not be rebellious. I learned that from Scripture.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
David:
Each Bishop may well be an individual, but the faithful and those those who serve under them should be able to discern a set of basic standards so that conduct that is disciplined in one Diocese would be disciplined in another Diocese, and that which is applauded in one Diocese would be applauded in another Diocese.
That’s just not happening right now, and that creates a situation where decisions often appear to be unreasonable, arbitrary and capricious, and where the faithful and the clergy don’t know who’s making thos decisions or if anyone is responsible for them.
In this case, the fact that an ORTHODOX priest was pulled from the radio line-up while another one was kept on who consistently questions the Pope and the Teachings of the Church is the point, because it demonstrates that there is no universal and predictable set of standards at work, as there once was.
The Bishops have to lead, but they have to lead TOGETHER as a TEAM, with the Pope as their PRIME MINISTER, and our Lord Jesus as the PRESIDENT and KING of the team, teaching that which has been “received by all men in all places at all times”. I promise you - they can’t go wrong if they do that, and not even the critics here at CA will have grounds to criticize them. Or, at least won’t have grounds very often.
And, please remember, as long as the Church has had Bishops, they’ve made mistakes, and someone (other Bishops, priests, laity) has had to try to tell them the truth in love. Or did you forget the incidence in the Book of Acts when St. Paul had to correct St. Peter?
In Christ, Michael
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Petrus127
Guest
I am responding to this particular quote because of the reference to Fr. Greeley, a priest in my Archdiocese. But my concern is for all of the posters who are so outspoken in their assurance that Archbishop Flynn is in the wrong here.
I realize that the times are very trying to faithful Catholics, but anger is still a deadly sin. The Holy Spirit is able to work through the bishops.
Which heresy has Fr. Greeley promoted?
My impression is that most priests are innocent and good men; this might not seem like the case in certain areas, but the plain and boring ones don’t get much press.
Surely there are many options for reading good, orthodox Catholic books, listening or watching EWTN, or Relevant Radio (when Fr. Greeley is not preaching), so that those who are disappointed to be without Fr. Altier’s voice can still be nourished. There is always the Bible, too.
The Archbishop will be judged, but so will we, and we must be very cautious in order to take seriously the Lord’s words, “Whoever hears you, hears Me.” This is said of the successors of the Apostles, even when they are imperfect.
Peace to you in Jesus Christ!
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catholic2
Guest
Albeit the problem with our Bishops in their behavior regarding the sexual predator situation among priests (and I praise the Lord for using the secular press to bring the problem to the fore), scripture calls us to be subject to authority. But it calls us also to be sober and vigilant and be steadfast in our faith. With humility before God, we are called to have faith in Him. (see 1Peter 5:5-8) I also will stand on Romans 8:28. God will take care of this situation. Let us be obedient to our Bishops.
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BobR
Guest
Traditional Ang:
Or maybe a little beyond orthodox? Fr. Altier has claimed that “the Church is very, very clear that She does not want us receiving Communion in the hand”. And I have heard that communion in the hand is frowned upon at St. Agnes. Well, in fact, tongue or hand is the rule at the option of the recipient. And at St. Peter’s (the one in Rome, Italy, not Richfield, MN) folks at an evening Mass I was at a couple of years ago were receiving in the hand. Perhaps the bishop has detected a “more Catholic than the Pope” attitude at work and has decided that this priest should cool it a bit for his own good. I have some sympathy for the view that taking communion in the hand is less reverent, but to claim one’s own preference as doctrine is over the top.
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Accipiterr
Guest
All i know about this man is what i read from Spirt Daily and well he seems right on about that program so i think it was wrong of the bishop to silence him but it is within his power and should be Followed i pary for this priest as i do for all but i think this is a sighn of the times.
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Petrus127:
If Anger itself were a sin, St. Paul would not have said:
Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun set on your anger, and do not leave room for the devil. Eph 4:26-27
And the Gospels would never have reported this scene:
*He found in the temple area those who sold oxen, sheep, and doves, as well as the money-changers seated there.
He made a whip out of cords and drove them all out of the temple area, with the sheep and oxen, and spilled the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables, and to those who sold doves he said, “Take these out of here, and stop making my Father’s house a marketplace.”
His disciples recalled the words of scripture, “Zeal for your house will consume me.” John 2:14-17*
And scripture most definitely would never have recorded this:
*Likewise all the princes of Judah, the priests and the people added infidelity to infidelity, practicing all the abominations of the nations and polluting the LORD’S temple which he had consecrated in Jerusalem.
Early and often did the LORD, the God of their fathers, send his messengers to them, for he had compassion on his people and his dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised his warnings, and scoffed at his prophets, until the anger of the LORD against his people was so inflamed that there was no remedy.
Then he brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans, who slew their young men in their own sanctuary building, sparing neither young man nor maiden, neither the aged nor the decrepit; he delivered all of them over into his grip. All the utensils of the house of God, the large and the small, and the treasures of the LORD’S house and of the king and his princes, all these he brought to Babylon. They burnt the house of God, tore down the walls of Jerusalem, set all its palaces afire, and destroyed all its precious objects.
Those who escaped the sword he carried captive to Babylon, where they became his and his sons’ servants until the kingdom of the Persians came to power. All this was to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah: “Until the land has retrieved its lost sabbaths, during all the time it lies waste it shall have rest while seventy years are fulfilled.” 2 Chron. 36:14-21*
Petrus127:
As I said in my post, Fr. Greeley has denied the Infalibility of the Pope and the Moral Teaching of the Church on Artificial Contraception and has attacked both Pope Jphn Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI at various times…
Petrus127:
Continued Next Post, Michael
If Anger itself were a sin, St. Paul would not have said:
Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun set on your anger, and do not leave room for the devil. Eph 4:26-27
And the Gospels would never have reported this scene:
*He found in the temple area those who sold oxen, sheep, and doves, as well as the money-changers seated there.
He made a whip out of cords and drove them all out of the temple area, with the sheep and oxen, and spilled the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables, and to those who sold doves he said, “Take these out of here, and stop making my Father’s house a marketplace.”
His disciples recalled the words of scripture, “Zeal for your house will consume me.” John 2:14-17*
And scripture most definitely would never have recorded this:
*Likewise all the princes of Judah, the priests and the people added infidelity to infidelity, practicing all the abominations of the nations and polluting the LORD’S temple which he had consecrated in Jerusalem.
Early and often did the LORD, the God of their fathers, send his messengers to them, for he had compassion on his people and his dwelling place. But they mocked the messengers of God, despised his warnings, and scoffed at his prophets, until the anger of the LORD against his people was so inflamed that there was no remedy.
Then he brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans, who slew their young men in their own sanctuary building, sparing neither young man nor maiden, neither the aged nor the decrepit; he delivered all of them over into his grip. All the utensils of the house of God, the large and the small, and the treasures of the LORD’S house and of the king and his princes, all these he brought to Babylon. They burnt the house of God, tore down the walls of Jerusalem, set all its palaces afire, and destroyed all its precious objects.
Those who escaped the sword he carried captive to Babylon, where they became his and his sons’ servants until the kingdom of the Persians came to power. All this was to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah: “Until the land has retrieved its lost sabbaths, during all the time it lies waste it shall have rest while seventy years are fulfilled.” 2 Chron. 36:14-21*
I don’t know where you learned that anger was a sin, but those scriptures say otherwise. What matters is why we’re angry and how we deal with the anger.
As I said in my post, Fr. Greeley has denied the Infalibility of the Pope and the Moral Teaching of the Church on Artificial Contraception and has attacked both Pope Jphn Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI at various times…
… I don’t know about any others, but his “Liberalism” and general attitude of dissent from Church Teachings makes him a hero of “Progressives” within the Church.
Continued Next Post, Michael
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Traditional_Ang
Guest
Petrus127 (Continued from Previous Post):
The Archbishop will be judged, as will we all. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be criticised when they seem to be wrong or when they act in a manner that seems to be arbitrary, unreasonable or capricious or when they refuse to stand up for the Faith and to stand in union with the Pope…
Petrus127:
Then came the name ‘Josephum’ and gloom set in
(Filed: 24/04/2005)
*In 2003, Monsignor Kevin McDonald, a super-bright former Vatican official, was installed as Archbishop of Southwark. Yet his name had not been on the terna, the list of three candidates submitted to Rome by the Pope’s (liberal) representative in England. “A senior Left-leaning bishop was just about to pack his library and call in the removal men when the news came through that he wasn’t going to Southwark after all,” says a priest close to the Vatican. “And guess who struck through his name? Ratzinger.”
The Southwark story confirms a point made by John Allen in his 1999 biography of Ratzinger. In the last chapter, having dismissed a Ratzinger papacy as a virtual impossibility, Allen lists what the Catholic Church could expect if the unthinkable did happen. And near the top of the list is “better bishops”. Benedict recognises that the low quality of episcopal appointments was one of John Paul’s few failures. Nowhere was this more obvious than in England and Wales, where a succession of socialist prelates allowed themselves to be manipulated by Left-wing advisers. (Fr Frank Turner, until recently the bishop’s foreign affairs adviser, rarely lost an opportunity to advance the Palestinian cause, and also threw his weight behind the proposed EU constitution.)*
telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2005%2F04%2F24%2Fwpope124.xml
Saints and Biographies: Saint Joseph Pignatelli - Jesuit Saint
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
The order was finally suppressed, put out of existence by Pope Clement XIV in 1773. In many ways the world in Europe and the world in the two Americas was in the state of revolution; our own independent, as we call it, and Canada never taught about American independence, never – I taught there for six years. They always talk about the American revolt. At any rate, about the same time Pope Clement XIV who suppressed the order died within a year. He was pressured because those in the Church, bishops especially, who detested the very name of Jesuit, put the pressure on the Philipinses and rulers, France, Spain, Italy, Portugal and threatened to apostatize and go over to the Protestants unless the Pope suppressed the Jesuits. There would have been, historians tell us, no French revolution except for the Jesuits suppressed just before, because we especially opposed the intellectuals of Europe and without the French revolution there would have been no Karl Marx; there would be no communism in the world today. At any rate the Church’s enemy knew whom they had to put out of existence if they wanted to succeed. So much for a back-ground of what transpired before and now back to St. Joseph Pignatelli.
therealpresence.org/archives/Saints/Saints_018.htm
I’ll let you arrive at the question as to whether jealous Bishops were speaking for Christ when they demanded the Jesuits be surpressed, but only after you contemplate the damage that was done,
Also, The same after you read about what they did to the histopric parishes in England.
And with your Spirit, Michael
The Archbishop will be judged, as will we all. That doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be criticised when they seem to be wrong or when they act in a manner that seems to be arbitrary, unreasonable or capricious or when they refuse to stand up for the Faith and to stand in union with the Pope…
Maybee these two articles will shed some light:
Then came the name ‘Josephum’ and gloom set in
(Filed: 24/04/2005)
*In 2003, Monsignor Kevin McDonald, a super-bright former Vatican official, was installed as Archbishop of Southwark. Yet his name had not been on the terna, the list of three candidates submitted to Rome by the Pope’s (liberal) representative in England. “A senior Left-leaning bishop was just about to pack his library and call in the removal men when the news came through that he wasn’t going to Southwark after all,” says a priest close to the Vatican. “And guess who struck through his name? Ratzinger.”
The Southwark story confirms a point made by John Allen in his 1999 biography of Ratzinger. In the last chapter, having dismissed a Ratzinger papacy as a virtual impossibility, Allen lists what the Catholic Church could expect if the unthinkable did happen. And near the top of the list is “better bishops”. Benedict recognises that the low quality of episcopal appointments was one of John Paul’s few failures. Nowhere was this more obvious than in England and Wales, where a succession of socialist prelates allowed themselves to be manipulated by Left-wing advisers. (Fr Frank Turner, until recently the bishop’s foreign affairs adviser, rarely lost an opportunity to advance the Palestinian cause, and also threw his weight behind the proposed EU constitution.)*
telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2005%2F04%2F24%2Fwpope124.xml
Saints and Biographies: Saint Joseph Pignatelli - Jesuit Saint
by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.
The order was finally suppressed, put out of existence by Pope Clement XIV in 1773. In many ways the world in Europe and the world in the two Americas was in the state of revolution; our own independent, as we call it, and Canada never taught about American independence, never – I taught there for six years. They always talk about the American revolt. At any rate, about the same time Pope Clement XIV who suppressed the order died within a year. He was pressured because those in the Church, bishops especially, who detested the very name of Jesuit, put the pressure on the Philipinses and rulers, France, Spain, Italy, Portugal and threatened to apostatize and go over to the Protestants unless the Pope suppressed the Jesuits. There would have been, historians tell us, no French revolution except for the Jesuits suppressed just before, because we especially opposed the intellectuals of Europe and without the French revolution there would have been no Karl Marx; there would be no communism in the world today. At any rate the Church’s enemy knew whom they had to put out of existence if they wanted to succeed. So much for a back-ground of what transpired before and now back to St. Joseph Pignatelli.
therealpresence.org/archives/Saints/Saints_018.htm
I’ll let you arrive at the question as to whether jealous Bishops were speaking for Christ when they demanded the Jesuits be surpressed, but only after you contemplate the damage that was done,
Also, The same after you read about what they did to the histopric parishes in England.
And with your Spirit, Michael
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