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- Status
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joe370
Guest
Hey Rinnie… Sadly, no one has ever answered this question; not as a former Lutheran or as a Catholic convert.[SIGN][/SIGN]
Joe! This is priceless! I hope you don’t mind if I steal it from time to time. I can’t wait to hear what responses you get to this one.
If you get an answer from someone, please let me know! I’d be very curious…
R
rinnie
Guest
[SIGN][/SIGN]
“I will build my church.”
I’m not letting you off the hook that easy. LOL…Perhaps you can ask Ed and let me know. In the mean time, [SIGN]could you please give me the name of the man that built the C.C.[/SIGN]
I just could not let this go. ITs too good. I know the answer was given plenty of times. But may I pleeeeeeease Pretty Please! Thanks.
Okay the CC was build by Jesus Christ, he built his Church on Peter. Now you can take that both ways too! If you don’t believe me, Go to rome. Under the Church guess who you will find? Yep Peter
It makes perfect sense. Yes, Jesus is the church to which he is the head and savior, and he is the builder:Soc, you said:
Good questions! Not sure how Evangelical Ed would answer.
Does this even make sense to anyone? Did Jesus not said I am the Church.
n eph 5:25 Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor without spot or wrinkle or any such thing that she might be holy without blemish.
Now here is what I am hearing. Jesus died for the Church, became the Church and then left the Church? Is that what they are trying to say. IF so not only do I disagree, scripture sure does too.
“I will build my church.”
I’m not letting you off the hook that easy. LOL…Perhaps you can ask Ed and let me know. In the mean time, [SIGN]could you please give me the name of the man that built the C.C.
[/SIGN]I just could not let this go. ITs too good. I know the answer was given plenty of times. But may I pleeeeeeease Pretty Please! Thanks.
Okay the CC was build by Jesus Christ, he built his Church on Peter. Now you can take that both ways too! If you don’t believe me, Go to rome. Under the Church guess who you will find? Yep Peter
J
joe370
Guest
**Hey Rinnie, you said:
**
I just could not let this go. ITs too good. I know the answer was given plenty of times. But may I pleeeeeeease Pretty Please! Thanks.
**I have asked this question so many times, to no avail. There is a reason for this of course. If the answer is Jesus Christ, then they would have to ask themselves: why don’t I belong to Jesus’ established church, just as I did as a former Christian belonging to one of the Lutheran churches.
**
Okay the CC was build by Jesus Christ, he built his Church on Peter…
**…And the rest of the Apostles and prophets, to which non-Catholics, e.g., many of my own family members, ignore, and simply utter the mantra: Jesus is the only foundation. I never understood even as a former Lutheran, why that was when it’s stated in the bible. I was always told that Catholics were never bible oriented. What I discovered was the exact opposite. Most non-Catholics ignore large chunks of the holy bible, just as Martin Luther did.
**
Now you can take that both ways too! If you don’t believe me, Go to rome. Under the Church guess who you will find? Yep Peter.
**To this they will simply say: another catholic lie. **
**As a former protestant I was really saddened by the disdain many non-Catholics had/have for Jesus’ established church, and it was/is always based on some disinformation or outright lie, e.g. Catholics worship the blessed Mother Mary. Jesus said: "If the world hates you, (the C.C. built by Jesus) - ye know that it hated me before it hated you. But He also said: “…when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.”
And: “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever.”
The holy spirit was there in the beginning, on Pentecost, was there in the middle, guiding Jesus church into all truth, regardless of the chaff mixed in with the wheat, and will be there to the end, and that is why I love the C.C.To believe the bible is to believe the fact that Jesus is the guider, sustainer and protector of the C.C. As long as the holy spirit is guiding Jesus’ church, she, as the bride of Christ, simply cannot fail to teach all that Jesus taught, almost 2000 years ago, even though the devil is relentless in his efforts from within and out. **
**
I just could not let this go. ITs too good. I know the answer was given plenty of times. But may I pleeeeeeease Pretty Please! Thanks.
**I have asked this question so many times, to no avail. There is a reason for this of course. If the answer is Jesus Christ, then they would have to ask themselves: why don’t I belong to Jesus’ established church, just as I did as a former Christian belonging to one of the Lutheran churches.
**
Okay the CC was build by Jesus Christ, he built his Church on Peter…
**…And the rest of the Apostles and prophets, to which non-Catholics, e.g., many of my own family members, ignore, and simply utter the mantra: Jesus is the only foundation. I never understood even as a former Lutheran, why that was when it’s stated in the bible. I was always told that Catholics were never bible oriented. What I discovered was the exact opposite. Most non-Catholics ignore large chunks of the holy bible, just as Martin Luther did.
**
Now you can take that both ways too! If you don’t believe me, Go to rome. Under the Church guess who you will find? Yep Peter.
**To this they will simply say: another catholic lie. **
**As a former protestant I was really saddened by the disdain many non-Catholics had/have for Jesus’ established church, and it was/is always based on some disinformation or outright lie, e.g. Catholics worship the blessed Mother Mary. Jesus said: "If the world hates you, (the C.C. built by Jesus) - ye know that it hated me before it hated you. But He also said: “…when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.”
And: “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever.”
The holy spirit was there in the beginning, on Pentecost, was there in the middle, guiding Jesus church into all truth, regardless of the chaff mixed in with the wheat, and will be there to the end, and that is why I love the C.C.To believe the bible is to believe the fact that Jesus is the guider, sustainer and protector of the C.C. As long as the holy spirit is guiding Jesus’ church, she, as the bride of Christ, simply cannot fail to teach all that Jesus taught, almost 2000 years ago, even though the devil is relentless in his efforts from within and out. **
R
rinnie
Guest
Wonderful Post Joe.
If I was given a chance to say one thing to other Faiths. Just one thing, It would be this.
Jesus said I am sending the advocate the HS. He will lead the Church. The HS is GOD FOLKS AND HE IS STILL THERE ALIVE AND WELL IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH JUST LIKE JESUS WHEN HE WALKED THIS EARTH. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS SITTING WITH PETER AND US GOING UP TO COMMUNION ON SUNDAY AND SPENDING OUR ONE AND ONE TIME WITH HIM. GOD IS GOD. GOD FROM GOD, LIGHT FROM LIGHT TRUE GOD FROM TRUE GOD.
HE STILL EXISTS. WE DON’T HAVE TO WAIT FOR HIM TO COME IN GLORY, HE’S HERE. IN THE EUCHARIST!
p.s. Guys thats shouting ( I just learned caps is shouting) But its in a good way.
Just like Love you can’t see it, you can’t reveal it! Its just there in your heart!
Anyone you walk into a RCC especially alone and sit in that pew. or kneel in front of that altar, and you don’t feel the Jesus you never will. And then when you learn what Communion really is, you would just…sing, dance whatever you do when you are so full of grace and joy!
If I was given a chance to say one thing to other Faiths. Just one thing, It would be this.
Jesus said I am sending the advocate the HS. He will lead the Church. The HS is GOD FOLKS AND HE IS STILL THERE ALIVE AND WELL IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH JUST LIKE JESUS WHEN HE WALKED THIS EARTH. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JESUS SITTING WITH PETER AND US GOING UP TO COMMUNION ON SUNDAY AND SPENDING OUR ONE AND ONE TIME WITH HIM. GOD IS GOD. GOD FROM GOD, LIGHT FROM LIGHT TRUE GOD FROM TRUE GOD.
HE STILL EXISTS. WE DON’T HAVE TO WAIT FOR HIM TO COME IN GLORY, HE’S HERE. IN THE EUCHARIST!
p.s. Guys thats shouting ( I just learned caps is shouting) But its in a good way.
Just like Love you can’t see it, you can’t reveal it! Its just there in your heart!
Anyone you walk into a RCC especially alone and sit in that pew. or kneel in front of that altar, and you don’t feel the Jesus you never will. And then when you learn what Communion really is, you would just…sing, dance whatever you do when you are so full of grace and joy!
D
DerekD
Guest
Grace is no longer grace my legalist friend. You are well trained in your churches theology; you stated it is grace on one hand and works of sacraments and church attendence on the other hand and neither hand knows what the other is doing.
I am blessed not to have such conflict. I am not confused between the old and new law, they are the same except for the sabbath. As Jesus aptly put it that if both of His commands are obeyed, then it fulfills all the law. However; no one has the ability to not sin; even the greatest saints. Sacraments will not save you; I hope you believe that because they cannot add an ounce of grace; saving grace is not made in measure.
Eph. 4:7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.
There is not partial measure of saving grace or the Holy Spirit.
John 3:34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for ***God does not give the Spirit by measure. ***
The Holy Spirit is a person that is not divided; when one is justified before God at the moment they truly belief according to Gods grace, then they are immediately “sealed” by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who thinks they are saved and can be unsaved does not understand God’s salvation by grace through faith in God (Jesus).
D
DerekD
Guest
You misunderstand James; how can I make you understand? I cannot, only the Holy Spirit can do that. I will say that you are so blind to legalism; that you you state it explicitly yet don’t see it.
Have you ever looked to see what the word salvation actually means? It means to be saved from something BAD. What is that BAD? Sin. At what point are yours sins forgiven according to Scripture? I’ll give you a clue; immediately after one receives the Holy Spirit and is sealed to the day of redemption/glorification. Not in your system; you have to do this, that, and the other, then keep repeating some of them, to keep on “infusing” God’s salvation grace.
Justification is salvation from the punishment of sin, and baptism can’t save you, pennace before a priest cannot save you, praying to someone besides God can’t save you, giving to the poor can’t save you, helping your neighbor shovel his driveway can’t save you either…there is only one way! And you deny the only way, which is by grace, through faith alone in God alone. To you it is foolishness; just as the Bible said it would be with the “many”, which is why there are only a “few” that are saved, a remnant…has always been god’s way and will always continue to be that way. No one need remain that way as long as they are breathing and not brain dead.
A justified person will then begin the santification process immediately after receiving the Holy Spirit; those works which God preordained before time, is the testimony of “living faith” before men, not God. This is James whole point; faith without works is phony. You will know them by their fruits etc etc.
You are mistaken when you stated we have received the HS at conception; you will not find that in Scripture pertaining to the majority of Christians…Christ was filled of course and probably john the Baptist in the womb if i recall correctly.
C
clmowry
Guest
So I guess the key to salvation is doing absolutely nothing.
Somehow that sounds harder to achieve than one might first think.
Chuck
D
DerekD
Guest
Unfortunately, that forensic righteousness you so clearly reject is justification AKA salvation and if you look at the Scripture; the term for justified is a “legal” term used that legally pronounced a person “not gulity”.
You can have your doctrines based on anything, but if it not in accordance with justification by God’s grace through faith in God, then you have a different gospel that cannot save a person. Lord Lord didn’t we do this, that and the other? Depart from me I don’t know you.
The ones who walked by faith, when did we feed you, when did we visit you, when did we give you something to drink?..they had so much love and obedience they were serving others from the heart and thus serving the Lord and didn’t even realize it…amen.
D
DerekD
Guest
Then you will have a heck of a time reconcilling this with Ephesians 2 “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”
James point is that some say the have faITH (LIKE the demons) but have no fruit to jsutify their claim befor men, not god. James say you have faith do you…I’ll show you my faith by my works. i havn’t met a Catholic yet that understands James; Luther apparently did not either, he called it an espitsle of straw.
yes, only the saved observe the teachings of the Church I will readily agree to that. But my point was that what the church does in not legalism. the Church is simply doing what it was told to do. You do not refute this in this note. The Christian will be obedient to the LORD or King, not your church or any other church
Peter referred to himself and no such thing, better read and believe rather than to hear and speak untruths about scripture.
You can’t accept the fact that you are completely wrong and cannot understand the sripture and what God teaches us through them. I do not say anything that cannot be shown in Scripture either explicitly or beyond reason. You appear to make it up as you go AISI. (As I See It)
D
DerekD
Guest
It is obvious to anyone who is saved. Trust me; you all are not in any type of alignment, some of you are better researchers than others and the better at that that you are the more consistent you become at parroting the church to which you commune with. You do not need to think for yourself, your church has already done that for you and they know better than you of that which is good for you…right? I wish you could prove they were taught by the apostles; I see not scraments done by the apostles; I do see two ordanices given by the Lord to be baptised in the Name of the Trinity and to remeber the Lords Supper, but beyound that you won’t find sacraments.
D
DerekD
Guest
There is one true church of God, made of “little Christs” and began physically on the day of Pentecost.
The Bible doesn’t mention the Roman Catholic Church nor does it normally name false prophets, only that they existed and several places where the gospel as preached. If I had to put as date fora marriage between paganism and Chrsitinity, the 322Ad with Constantine would be my pick, this is when all the praying to dead saints and Maryology begins to develope. Would you agree?
D
DerekD
Guest
The key to salvation is Gods grace through faith in God, then He will continue the rest, the sanctification up to and including glorification.
Actually, receing salvation is easy, the santification part that can be difficult because we still live in the flesh.
J
joe370
Guest
Soc, as I promised, here are the names of the men that built each respective non-Catholic church up until the 1900’s, at which point you can give me the name and I will give you the founder; there are just too many of them for this post. Still waiting on Eds reply as well as yours regarding the architect of the C.C., whenever you get the chance, of course. Hopefully I’ll get your answer before the thread ends.
33 A.D.
The Catholic Church, (which eventually moved to Rome, headed by Peter after he fled Jerusalem) - was founded by the God-man, Jesus Christ. He said to just one man: "Thou art Cephas, and upon this Cephas I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Clearly the the second rock refers DIRECTLY back to the first rock, just as would be the case if Jesus said this instead:
Martin Luther, But what about you?" he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Martin Luther answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Martin Luther, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Cephas and on this Cephas, I will build my church. If this were in the bible, Lutherans would have no problem believing as do Catholics; rest assured, and I too would belong to the one Lutheran church; but first we would have to decide which one to follow: the one that believes as does the C.C. and Martin Luther, or the one who does not believe in the true presence.
In the following passages, Cephas is given as the nickname of the apostle better known as Simon Peter. The Greek word is transliterated Kephas. This eliminates the silly petra/petros argument, abandoned by almost all protestant scholars.
John 1:42
1 Corinthians 1:12
Galatians 1:18
Jesus’ church is built on the foundation of the Apostles and prophets. However, Jesus never said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the foundation of the apostles and prophets, and that is why I belong to the C.C. as opposed to the E.O.C., which also can trace their lineage all the way back to the apostles and prophets; not that that has happened with the EOC. Jesus said to Simon Peter and Simon Peter alone that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church built on Simon’s new nickname Kephas, which means: immovable Rock. And of course Jesus is the Godly (I Am) - Rock, guiding His earthly church until the end of time.
Peter knew that he would one day die, and in what way, so he passed the baton to a successor, to do as he did, knowing that the gates would never prevail against Jesus’ established church built on “this” immovable rock, (regardless of the weeds growing within the wheat) - until the end of time. That is why succession from this first century immovable rock to the present day immovable rock, is so important, regardless of the few bad rocks in this successive lineage. It seems like everyone would want to belong to the church built by Jesus on this immovable Rock to which the gates of hell could not prevail, thanks to Jesus’ protection/guardianship.
Every Church suffers occasionally because of the weaknesses of human nature. But I believe that regardless of these temporary weaknesses of human nature that take place in Jesus’ Church, abandoning His Church is not an option. Jesus was more forgiving and understanding of human nature. When Jesus was arrested, His chosen Apostles were guilty of such weaknesses. Judas had betrayed Him, Peter denied him three times, and the remaining apostles ran away, even after all the miracles they witnessed. If Jesus supported and anointed their apostolic role even after some of their human failings/shortcomings, shouldn’t we all, regardless of the century that this human weakness/shortcoming takes place, as long as the deposit of faith stays unchanged! After all, our faith is in the Church established by Jesus, not in any one person involved in the Church. Of course problems in the Church must be addressed and corrected, but the faith and Church established by Jesus should never be denied or abandoned.
33 A.D.
The Catholic Church, (which eventually moved to Rome, headed by Peter after he fled Jerusalem) - was founded by the God-man, Jesus Christ. He said to just one man: "Thou art Cephas, and upon this Cephas I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Clearly the the second rock refers DIRECTLY back to the first rock, just as would be the case if Jesus said this instead:
Martin Luther, But what about you?" he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Martin Luther answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Martin Luther, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Cephas and on this Cephas, I will build my church. If this were in the bible, Lutherans would have no problem believing as do Catholics; rest assured, and I too would belong to the one Lutheran church; but first we would have to decide which one to follow: the one that believes as does the C.C. and Martin Luther, or the one who does not believe in the true presence.
In the following passages, Cephas is given as the nickname of the apostle better known as Simon Peter. The Greek word is transliterated Kephas. This eliminates the silly petra/petros argument, abandoned by almost all protestant scholars.
John 1:42
Code:
He brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon son of John, you shall be called Cephas", which is translated 'Peter'.
Code:
"But I say that each of you says "I am of Paul", or "I am of Apollos", or "I am of Cephas", or "I am of Christ".
Code:
Then after three years I did go up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas and stayed with him for fifteen days...Peter knew that he would one day die, and in what way, so he passed the baton to a successor, to do as he did, knowing that the gates would never prevail against Jesus’ established church built on “this” immovable rock, (regardless of the weeds growing within the wheat) - until the end of time. That is why succession from this first century immovable rock to the present day immovable rock, is so important, regardless of the few bad rocks in this successive lineage. It seems like everyone would want to belong to the church built by Jesus on this immovable Rock to which the gates of hell could not prevail, thanks to Jesus’ protection/guardianship.
Every Church suffers occasionally because of the weaknesses of human nature. But I believe that regardless of these temporary weaknesses of human nature that take place in Jesus’ Church, abandoning His Church is not an option. Jesus was more forgiving and understanding of human nature. When Jesus was arrested, His chosen Apostles were guilty of such weaknesses. Judas had betrayed Him, Peter denied him three times, and the remaining apostles ran away, even after all the miracles they witnessed. If Jesus supported and anointed their apostolic role even after some of their human failings/shortcomings, shouldn’t we all, regardless of the century that this human weakness/shortcoming takes place, as long as the deposit of faith stays unchanged! After all, our faith is in the Church established by Jesus, not in any one person involved in the Church. Of course problems in the Church must be addressed and corrected, but the faith and Church established by Jesus should never be denied or abandoned.
J
joe370
Guest
Man-made churches continued…
100 AD
200 AD
300 AD
400 AD
500 AD
600 AD
700 AD
800 AD
9th Century marked the first official schisms within Jesus’ one church.
827 AD: Eastern Schism began by Photius of Constantinople. The primary difference in Faith at the heart of the schism was the argument over the addition of the filioque statement (Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, not just the Father) to the creed. This schism eventually healed.
900 AD
1000 AD
1053 AD: Eastern Schism began by Michael Caerularius of Constantinople. The primary argument was the Latin practice of fasting on Saturday and the use of unleavened bread for the Holy Eucharist. Theses two points were more for challenging the authority of the Roman Pontif. This schism eventually healed.
1100 AD
1200 AD
1300 AD
1378 AD: Death of Pope Gregory XI on 27 March, 1378 began the Western Schism. The schism came to an end in 1417.
1400
1472: Present Schism of the Eastern Church begins with the repudiation of the Council of Florence.
1500
1517: Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther, a former priest of the Roman Catholic Church. This marked the beginning of the Protestant Reformation
1521: Anabaptist first appeared in Zwickau, in the present kingdom of Saxony. Initially, they were primarily against infant baptism.
1525: Schwenkfeldians were founded by Kaspar of Schwenkfeld, aulic councillor of Duke Frederick of Liegnitz and canon. At first he associated himself with Luther, but later opposed the latter in his Christology, as well as in his conception of the Eucharist, and his doctrine of justification.
1531: The Socinians and other Anti-Trinitarians attacked the fundamental doctrine of the Blessed Trinity. Chief founder of Anti-Trinitarians was Laelius Socinus, teacher of jurisprudence at Siena, and his nephew, Faustus Socinus.
1536: Mennonites founded by Menno Simons, a former Catholic priest and later an Anabaptist elder. They deny infant baptism and the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.
1534: Church of England (Anglicanism) was founded by King Henry VIII when he threw off the authority of the Pope and proclaimed himself the head of the Church in England, because the Pope refused to declare invalid his marriage with Queen Catherine.
1560: The Presbyterian denomination was begun by John Knox who was dissatisfied with Anglicanism.
1600
1608: The Baptist church was launched by John Smyth in Amsterdam, Holland.
1620: The Swiss Mennonites split into Amish or Upland Mennonites and Lowland Mennonites.
1671: Quakers were founded by John George Fox of Drayton in Leicestershire. He favored a visionary spiritualism, and found in the soul of each man a portion of the Divine intelligence. All are allowed to preach, according as the spirit incites them.
1700
1744: The Methodist church was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England.
1774: The Unitarians were founded by Theophilus Lindley in London.
1784: Episcopalian denomination was begun by Samuel Seabury who was dissatisfied with Presbyterianism.
1787: The founder of The Salvation Army is William Booth, who quit the Anglicans, and then the Methodists, and set up his own version of Christianity.
1800
1822: Mormons founded by Joseph Smith, who made his appearance with supposed revelations in 1822.
1872: The Jehovah’s Witness Church was developed by Charles Russell.
1879: Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy began the Christian Scientist religion basing it upon an outright denial of Original Sin and its effects.
1896: Ballinger Booth, the son of William Booth, quit The Salvation Army and started his own church.
The Seventh-Day Adventists, the Church of Christ, The Church of the Nazarene, or any of the various Pentecostal Churches, etc. are also among the hundreds of new churches founded by men within the past 150 years or so.
2000 AD…
Thousands of churches and non-denominational churches scattered outside the One Church founded by Christ, and many more to be built in the future.
100 AD
200 AD
300 AD
400 AD
500 AD
600 AD
700 AD
800 AD
9th Century marked the first official schisms within Jesus’ one church.
827 AD: Eastern Schism began by Photius of Constantinople. The primary difference in Faith at the heart of the schism was the argument over the addition of the filioque statement (Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, not just the Father) to the creed. This schism eventually healed.
900 AD
1000 AD
1053 AD: Eastern Schism began by Michael Caerularius of Constantinople. The primary argument was the Latin practice of fasting on Saturday and the use of unleavened bread for the Holy Eucharist. Theses two points were more for challenging the authority of the Roman Pontif. This schism eventually healed.
1100 AD
1200 AD
1300 AD
1378 AD: Death of Pope Gregory XI on 27 March, 1378 began the Western Schism. The schism came to an end in 1417.
1400
1472: Present Schism of the Eastern Church begins with the repudiation of the Council of Florence.
1500
1517: Lutheran Church was founded by Martin Luther, a former priest of the Roman Catholic Church. This marked the beginning of the Protestant Reformation
1521: Anabaptist first appeared in Zwickau, in the present kingdom of Saxony. Initially, they were primarily against infant baptism.
1525: Schwenkfeldians were founded by Kaspar of Schwenkfeld, aulic councillor of Duke Frederick of Liegnitz and canon. At first he associated himself with Luther, but later opposed the latter in his Christology, as well as in his conception of the Eucharist, and his doctrine of justification.
1531: The Socinians and other Anti-Trinitarians attacked the fundamental doctrine of the Blessed Trinity. Chief founder of Anti-Trinitarians was Laelius Socinus, teacher of jurisprudence at Siena, and his nephew, Faustus Socinus.
1536: Mennonites founded by Menno Simons, a former Catholic priest and later an Anabaptist elder. They deny infant baptism and the real presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.
1534: Church of England (Anglicanism) was founded by King Henry VIII when he threw off the authority of the Pope and proclaimed himself the head of the Church in England, because the Pope refused to declare invalid his marriage with Queen Catherine.
1560: The Presbyterian denomination was begun by John Knox who was dissatisfied with Anglicanism.
1600
1608: The Baptist church was launched by John Smyth in Amsterdam, Holland.
1620: The Swiss Mennonites split into Amish or Upland Mennonites and Lowland Mennonites.
1671: Quakers were founded by John George Fox of Drayton in Leicestershire. He favored a visionary spiritualism, and found in the soul of each man a portion of the Divine intelligence. All are allowed to preach, according as the spirit incites them.
1700
1744: The Methodist church was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England.
1774: The Unitarians were founded by Theophilus Lindley in London.
1784: Episcopalian denomination was begun by Samuel Seabury who was dissatisfied with Presbyterianism.
1787: The founder of The Salvation Army is William Booth, who quit the Anglicans, and then the Methodists, and set up his own version of Christianity.
1800
1822: Mormons founded by Joseph Smith, who made his appearance with supposed revelations in 1822.
1872: The Jehovah’s Witness Church was developed by Charles Russell.
1879: Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy began the Christian Scientist religion basing it upon an outright denial of Original Sin and its effects.
1896: Ballinger Booth, the son of William Booth, quit The Salvation Army and started his own church.
The Seventh-Day Adventists, the Church of Christ, The Church of the Nazarene, or any of the various Pentecostal Churches, etc. are also among the hundreds of new churches founded by men within the past 150 years or so.
2000 AD…
Thousands of churches and non-denominational churches scattered outside the One Church founded by Christ, and many more to be built in the future.
F
fhansen
Guest
We’d agree with that last statement except you said in post # 947 that people of faith “had so much love and obedience they were serving others from the heart and thus serving the Lord and didn’t even realize it…amen.” So is obedience easy for people of faith or difficult?
We take sanctification very seriously since we know it’s tied up with justification. Jesus not only forgives sin-He takes it away. Thus He told the adulteress, “Your sins are forgiven, go, and sin no more.” And with the help of His grace, we can accomplish even that.
I believe you’ve come to faith but I don’t believe in your theology and don’t believe you really do either. Why don’t you do the world a favor and admit-to yourself, at least- that there’s nothing really different about you and the one-time born again, “faith alone” salvation experience is bogus.
J
joe370
Guest
The bible, codified by the RCC in the 4th century, doesn’t mention any protestant churches either my friend. To which church do you belong? Perhaps that is the church built by God.
So, you are saying that Constantine built the R.C.C. and the true C.C. built by Jesus, spanned the first 4 centuries, at which point the RCC surfaced, and these 2 churches co-existed until the protestant reformation???
Regarding the “praying to dead saints” God is the God of the living not the dead. Give your bible a once over.
Regarding “Maryology” I suppose you have been taught to believe, and so believe, that Catholics worship Mary, just as I was taught to believe as a former Lutheran, and no longer believe?
J
joe370
Guest
DerekD, you said to Rinnie, grace is no longer grace my legalist friend. You are well trained in your churches theology; you stated it is grace on one hand and works of sacraments and church attendence on the other hand and neither hand knows what the other is doing.
**You too my legalist friend are well trained in your churches theology. By the way, which church is that, or is church attendance unnecessary? Is your authority via your interpretation of your bible, codified by my church, for you, the final authority ?
**
I am blessed not to have such conflict.
**How do you know. Based on what? **
I am not confused between the old and new law, they are the same except for the sabbath. As Jesus aptly put it that if both of His commands are obeyed, then it fulfills all the law. However; no one has the ability to not sin; even the greatest saints. Sacraments will not save you; I hope you believe that because they cannot add an ounce of grace; saving grace is not made in measure.
**Give me a reason why I should defer to your interpretation of your bible, and I will join your one man church, unless of course you attend a church, to which I will do the same.
**
…when one is justified before God at the moment they truly belief according to Gods grace, then they are immediately “sealed” by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who thinks they are saved and can be unsaved does not understand God’s salvation by grace through faith in God (Jesus).
**Ahhh, you are a once saved always saved person, or am I wrong? You and my sister would get along so well.
**
**You too my legalist friend are well trained in your churches theology. By the way, which church is that, or is church attendance unnecessary? Is your authority via your interpretation of your bible, codified by my church, for you, the final authority ?
**
I am blessed not to have such conflict.
**How do you know. Based on what? **
I am not confused between the old and new law, they are the same except for the sabbath. As Jesus aptly put it that if both of His commands are obeyed, then it fulfills all the law. However; no one has the ability to not sin; even the greatest saints. Sacraments will not save you; I hope you believe that because they cannot add an ounce of grace; saving grace is not made in measure.
**Give me a reason why I should defer to your interpretation of your bible, and I will join your one man church, unless of course you attend a church, to which I will do the same.
**
…when one is justified before God at the moment they truly belief according to Gods grace, then they are immediately “sealed” by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who thinks they are saved and can be unsaved does not understand God’s salvation by grace through faith in God (Jesus).
**Ahhh, you are a once saved always saved person, or am I wrong? You and my sister would get along so well.
**
P
pneuma07
Guest
Dear Soc,
I wonder whether you’re just observing the debate ignited by Derek, or … you’re
already preparing the next thread.
Code:
you haven't been posting for several pages now.already preparing the next thread.
R
rinnie
Guest
[SIGN][/SIGN]
So how can we have one hand as you say it and then another. Is there only one kind of Grace? I thought God can give People many different Graces.
I thought that you get one Grace at Baptism, and you can continue to grow in that Grace. No? What the buck stops here.
Why then get married in the Church? I did it because I wanted that grace from God to bless my Marriage and grow in that grace for rest of my life? So what? I did not receive it?
I thought at Holy Communion it was a very special Grace given to me in receiving the Body of Christ. You don’t think thats a very special Grace either?
Holy Orders when a Priest gives his live just for God and receives the Power of the HS to teach Gods word. You don’t call that a Grace from God either.
How about last rites? A anointing Jesus taught the Apostels to bring spritual and even phycical strength during a illness? Thats not grace either?
Now if the Old Law and the New Law are exactly the same why did Paul tell the Jews that the gentiles are not held to it?
Okay Derek, maybe you can help me then. A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace. Jesus left us the 7 Sacraments for us to give us grace.
So how can we have one hand as you say it and then another. Is there only one kind of Grace? I thought God can give People many different Graces.
I thought that you get one Grace at Baptism, and you can continue to grow in that Grace. No? What the buck stops here.
Why then get married in the Church? I did it because I wanted that grace from God to bless my Marriage and grow in that grace for rest of my life? So what? I did not receive it?
I thought at Holy Communion it was a very special Grace given to me in receiving the Body of Christ. You don’t think thats a very special Grace either?
Holy Orders when a Priest gives his live just for God and receives the Power of the HS to teach Gods word. You don’t call that a Grace from God either.
How about last rites? A anointing Jesus taught the Apostels to bring spritual and even phycical strength during a illness? Thats not grace either?
Now if the Old Law and the New Law are exactly the same why did Paul tell the Jews that the gentiles are not held to it?
- Status