# Was Jesus deliberately ambiguous? #

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Grace is no longer grace my legalist friend. You are well trained in your churches theology; you stated it is grace on one hand and works of sacraments and church attendence on the other hand and neither hand knows what the other is doing.

I am blessed not to have such conflict. I am not confused between the old and new law, they are the same except for the sabbath. As Jesus aptly put it that if both of His commands are obeyed, then it fulfills all the law. However; no one has the ability to not sin; even the greatest saints. Sacraments will not save you; I hope you believe that because they cannot add an ounce of grace; saving grace is not made in measure.

Eph. 4:7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

There is not partial measure of saving grace or the Holy Spirit.

John 3:34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for ***God does not give the Spirit by measure. ***

The Holy Spirit is a person that is not divided; when one is justified before God at the moment they truly belief according to Gods grace, then they are immediately “sealed” by the Holy Spirit. [SIGN]Anyone who thinks they are saved and can be unsaved does not understand God’s salvation by grace through faith in God (Jesus).

[/SIGN]

Did you hear that Guys. We cannot fall from grace. The devils getting in too! Or what now Derek are you going to say that the devil was never a angel now? We know you can’t say that. He was actually one of the best angels at one time!

 

[clmowry]

The key to salvation is Gods grace through faith in God, then He will continue the rest, the sanctification up to and including glorification.

Actually, receing salvation is easy, the santification part that can be difficult because we still live in the flesh.

So I just wait for Him to give me that faith and then wait for Him to do the rest.

There is nothing I need to or can do one way or the other.

Right.

Chuck

 

[DerekD]

We’d agree with that last statement except you said in post # 947 that people of faith “had so much love and obedience they were serving others from the heart and thus serving the Lord and didn’t even realize it…amen.” So is obedience easy for people of faith or difficult?

We take sanctification very seriously since we know it’s tied up with justification. Jesus not only forgives sin-He takes it away. Thus He told the adulteress, “Your sins are forgiven, go, and sin no more.” And with the help of His grace, we can accomplish even that.

I believe you’ve come to faith but I don’t believe in your theology and don’t believe you really do either. Why don’t you do the world a favor and admit-to yourself, at least- that there’s nothing really different about you and the one-time born again, “faith alone” salvation experience is bogus.

Look closely at the words; santification part “can be difficult” because we live in the flesh. It is more or less difficult obedience or lack of obedience. The more one walks in obedience the less one is sinning; therefore we develope good habits and do not realize we are doing it. I believe there is much more that can be said of this because God wants us to grow and some of us stay stagnet because we are not daily washing in His word among other things.

How can a person make such a ridiculous statement as your last sentance; you obviously have not experienced the power of the gospel and the Holy Spirit; otherwise you wouldn’t not reject what the Bible so clearly spells out concerning justification; it is a gift, not a partial gift a freely given gift. Once that gift is received one is sealed by the spirit of truth and promise till the day of redemption. Also, He who began a godd work will what? complete it.

You don’t know what you are saying; you are rejecting the gospel and don’t even see it. What does the Bible say about those that reject the gospel; they remain in their sin…right?

 

[DerekD]

DerekD, you said to Rinnie, grace is no longer grace my legalist friend. You are well trained in your churches theology; you stated it is grace on one hand and works of sacraments and church attendence on the other hand and neither hand knows what the other is doing.

**You too my legalist friend are well trained in your churches theology. By the way, which church is that, or is church attendance unnecessary? Is your authority via your interpretation of your bible, codified by my church, for you, the final authority ?

**
I am blessed not to have such conflict.

**How do you know. Based on what? **

I am not confused between the old and new law, they are the same except for the sabbath. As Jesus aptly put it that if both of His commands are obeyed, then it fulfills all the law. However; no one has the ability to not sin; even the greatest saints. Sacraments will not save you; I hope you believe that because they cannot add an ounce of grace; saving grace is not made in measure.

**Give me a reason why I should defer to your interpretation of your bible, and I will join your one man church, unless of course you attend a church, to which I will do the same.
**

…when one is justified before God at the moment they truly belief according to Gods grace, then they are immediately “sealed” by the Holy Spirit. Anyone who thinks they are saved and can be unsaved does not understand God’s salvation by grace through faith in God (Jesus).

**Ahhh, you are a once saved always saved person, or am I wrong? You and my sister would get along so well.
**

You know so little about God it is pathetic; you should listen to your sister, she has better biblical theology. Do you believe God doesn’t want a person to know beyond a doubt that they are saved and do you actually believe that God will dwell, take up residence, then say this tent is too smelly; I’m out of here. God does not work that way, man does.

You can’t even get the biblical model for a church; talk to your sister. IMO it is the work of the devil to keep a person guessing if they are saved or not; it is the opposite of what God has said, unless you have good reason to doubt, like some continual sin.

 

[DerekD]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Okay Derek, maybe you can help me then. A Sacrament is an outward sign instituted by Christ to give Grace. Jesus left us the 7 Sacraments for us to give us grace.

So how can we have one hand as you say it and then another. Is there only one kind of Grace? I thought God can give People many different Graces.

I thought that you get one Grace at Baptism, and you can continue to grow in that Grace. No? What the buck stops here.

Why then get married in the Church? I did it because I wanted that grace from God to bless my Marriage and grow in that grace for rest of my life? So what? I did not receive it?

I thought at Holy Communion it was a very special Grace given to me in receiving the Body of Christ. You don’t think thats a very special Grace either?

Holy Orders when a Priest gives his live just for God and receives the Power of the HS to teach Gods word. You don’t call that a Grace from God either.

How about last rites? A anointing Jesus taught the Apostels to bring spritual and even phycical strength during a illness? Thats not grace either?

Now if the Old Law and the New Law are exactly the same why did Paul tell the Jews that the gentiles are not held to it?

Anything a priest does is illegitimate to start with; there is no levitical style priesthood any longer; Christ finsished the work the sacraficial work on the cross; try reading Hebrews chapter 7,8, & 9. There is a priesthood of believers that make up the only true church of God and Chrsit is the only High Priest; other than that nothing exists that wasn’t added to scripture as an invention by men. There is common grace and saving grace, the sacraments or works you refer to are of the salvation type and has zero biblical basis. Saving grace is not infused it is imputed all at one time and without measure, just as the bible teaches, it is called justification - see eph 4 amomg a host of others.

Paul was always correcting the Jews on this point; this was much broader than our discussion concerning the 10 commandments; the Jews, like your church added a bunch of extraneous rituals that nullified grace and added to the law.

 

[DerekD]

[SIGN][/SIGN][/SIGN]

Did you hear that Guys. We cannot fall from grace. The devils getting in too! Or what now Derek are you going to say that the devil was never a angel now? We know you can’t say that. He was actually one of the best angels at one time!

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority; - Are you complete? Apparently not.

for your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ; Again I say are you complete? By your own admission you are not.

Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? - Are you able to be separated from His love? No you cannot be; but since you say you can, you do not have that love to begin with…right?

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation–having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of {God’s own} possession, to the praise of His glory. - have you believed the message of salvation? No you have not you deny the very gospel of faith. Did you know the word pledge is the same word we get “ernest money” or “down payment”. Did you know sealed refers to that which a king would set His mark and only a higher authority that the King, which there would be none could open something with the seal. Did you know that the Romans put the emperors seal on Jesus tomb and a high authority unsealed it? This seal has great promise and meaning to a believer; appently it means nothing to you because you can walk away or fall away from that which you do not posess by your own admission.

 

[DerekD]

So I just wait for Him to give me that faith and then wait for Him to do the rest.

There is nothing I need to or can do one way or the other.

Right.

Chuck

You can keep trying to work you way to heaven, but you will fail. Until you understand what an offense to the holiness of God that you are; you will never enter His kingdom. If you ever get to that point and cry out to Him for salvation; He is able and willing, but on His way, not your way.

 

[fhansen]

Look closely at the words; santification part “can be difficult” because we live in the flesh. It is more or less difficult obedience or lack of obedience. The more one walks in obedience the less one is sinning; therefore we develope good habits and do not realize we are doing it. I believe there is much more that can be said of this because God wants us to grow and some of us stay stagnet because we are not daily washing in His word among other things.

How can a person make such a ridiculous statement as your last sentance; you obviously have not experienced the power of the gospel and the Holy Spirit; otherwise you wouldn’t not reject what the Bible so clearly spells out concerning justification; it is a gift, not a partial gift a freely given gift. Once that gift is received one is sealed by the spirit of truth and promise till the day of redemption. Also, He who began a godd work will what? complete it.

You don’t know what you are saying; you are rejecting the gospel and don’t even see it. What does the Bible say about those that reject the gospel; they remain in their sin…right?

The problem comes only from you thinking you’re really onto something different. We trust God for the gift of salvation as well, we just lack the over-confidence that the erroneous doctrine of OSAS brings with it. Again, like Paul, we continue with Gods grace to strive for the prize not yet obtained. This is the real gospel, which you’ve yet to accept. What *we do *counts, of course, because that’s His will. Praise God!

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:12-14

 

[fhansen]

Hey, Soc, could Derek be your recruit-or replacement-maybe?

 

[joe370]

DerekD;5884796]You know so little about God it is pathetic; you should listen to your sister, she has better biblical theology. Do you believe God doesn’t want a person to know beyond a doubt that they are saved and do you actually believe that God will dwell, take up residence, then say this tent is too smelly; I’m out of here. God does not work that way, man does.

**Well, I don’t think you are pathetic; quite the contrary; just very angry for some reason. The rest of what you said has nothing to do with what I asked you. When people refuse to answer the tough questions, there is a reason. Perhaps calling fellow Christians pathetic isn’t exactly what Peter had in mind when he said:

“But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an
answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you
have. But do this with gentleness and respect…”

**

You can’t even get the biblical model for a church; talk to your sister. IMO it is the work of the devil to keep a person guessing if they are saved or not; it is the opposite of what God has said, unless you have good reason to doubt, like some continual sin.

**If this is what you believe, that’s cool. I respect you, but yes, our little debate is over. Christians being belligerent to one another is simply playing right into the hands of the devil, and I will have no part of it!

Peace friend…
**

 

[joe370]

Derek, I would like to add one thing: if salvation is by “faith only” certainly this “faith only” concept excludes even faith gained by reading the Bible - right? Why the need for this added work; it can’t save you, if you are correct?

Again, PEACE FRIEND…

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
You are being very judgemental. How do you know I have never come to true repentence before God? And how do you know that I don’t understand the church and God? Is it because I don’t agree with your theology? You will notice that all the Catholics who answer you here will be in excellent theological alignment. this is because we are giving you Catholic Answers to your question and we understand what the Catholic church teaches. (and by the way, what the church teaches is very well documented and very easy to access for those with a true interest). The Catholic Church has been teaching the same truths for 2000 years - the same truths handed down by the Apostles. You can track the continuity of those truths all the way back to them through the writings of the church fathers. What is the source of your theology?

It is obvious to anyone who is saved. Trust me; you all are not in any type of alignment, some of you are better researchers than others and the better at that that you are the more consistent you become at parroting the church to which you commune with. You do not need to think for yourself, your church has already done that for you and they know better than you of that which is good for you…right? I wish you could prove they were taught by the apostles; I see not scraments done by the apostles; I do see two ordanices given by the Lord to be baptised in the Name of the Trinity and to remeber the Lords Supper, but beyound that you won’t find sacraments.

Derek,
Your answer to the question " What is the source of your theology?" is It is obvious to anyone who is saved? What makes you so sure you are saved and not just deluded. You know, Jim Jones and Charles Manson made similar claims with exactly the same level of support and credentials that you are showing. I’m not saying you are a mass murderer, but I’m simply pointing out that you you need a little more to support your claims than " its obvious"

You also need to recognize that you don’t come off as a very credible witness when you come on a Catholic Website geered toward apologetics and make the claim that Catholics don’t think for themselves. It just shows your biases and your lack of understanding of Catholicism.

The name of this website is Catholic Answers Forum. We are here to answer your questions about Catholicism. I suggest you take advantage of that and learn the truth about Catholicism rather than attack strawmen that you or others have created out of your ignorance. The truth will set you free.

As for the Catholic claim that our doctrines come from the apostles. These are not idle boasts. It is the truth. Pick a doctrine and we can show you the continuity of teaching through back the full 2000 years. Just to show you an example, lets address your statement that the seven sacraments are not Apostolic. Since you will give credence to the Eucharist and Baptism, lets chose Priestly ordination as a test case.

Lets start with the New Testament accounts. First of all, Jesus game 12 men special rights and power and called them Apostles. This was the beginning of the Episcopate.
He made one, Peter, the leader, in Matthew 16 and confirmed that in Luke 20 and John 21. This became the position of Pope. He also appointed 72 other men t o preach and cure the sick. These were the first priests. They had special power, but less than the Apostles.

Paul describes the ordination and responsibilities of bishops deacons and priest (presbyters) in his letters to Timothy and Titus. He tells them to appoint Presbyters in every town and to do this with the laying on of hands. The recognition of the roles of bishops, priests and deacons and their ordination rites are discussed through the centuries in letters and works from the Early church fathers, starting with the Didache (80AD) and St Clement’s letter to the Corinthians (96AD), continuing in St. Ignatius’s letters
(107AD) and through the history of the church.

 

[paul_c]

Originally Posted by paul c
Derek, why do you judge me as a legalist? I fact, why do you call Catholics legalists? You make the claim, but you give no examples of why you make the statement.
I think you have a false impression about what Catholicism is all about. It is good that you are on these pages now, because you will learn the truth about Catholicism and about salvation if you approach it with an open mind.

You also ignored the point I made to you. I gave you four scriptural verses demonstrating that works were also required for salvation, in opposition to your Salvation by Faith alone theology, yet you totally ignored them. If you want the truth, you can’t ignore scripture that contradicts your theology. And by the way, there is no question that Faith is the a requirement for salvation. But it is not the only one, nor is it even the first. The first is the Grace of God that allows you to have faith, the second is faith itself. The third is to Act out that faith by doing the will of God (summarized as loving God and Neighbor. ) If you truly do a comprehensive, study of the Bible, you will find that there is tremendous scriputural support for all three leading to salvation. You have chosen just to focus on the support of Faith, but you will see that there is equal support of the requirements for Grace and Good works as well.

By the way, the Holy Spirit, the lord, the Giver of Live, is within each of us from the moment of Conception. We gain its gifts through Grace and we gain grace through the Sacraments.

You misunderstand James; how can I make you understand? I cannot, only the Holy Spirit can do that. I will say that you are so blind to legalism; that you you state it explicitly yet don’t see it.

Why can’t you just take St. James for what it is- a clear refutation of Sola Fide? There’s nothing legalistic in it, just the recognition that Faith without works to validate it, ends up being nothing more than empty words. St. Paul says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 13:
1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues 2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Have you ever looked to see what the word salvation actually means? It means to be saved from something BAD. What is that BAD? Sin. At what point are yours sins forgiven according to Scripture? I’ll give you a clue; immediately after one receives the Holy Spirit and is sealed to the day of redemption/glorification. Not in your system; you have to do this, that, and the other, then keep repeating some of them, to keep on “infusing” God’s salvation grace.

So I would agree that Sin is bad. It is, by definition, turning away from God. . There is no where in scripture that suggests that future sins are forgiven at any time. You will not be able to show us such a verse because it does not exist. Scripturally, your PAST sins are forgiven when you are baptized or they are forgiven by an apostle or a priest who acts for Jesus.

Justification is salvation from the punishment of sin, and baptism can’t save you, pennace before a priest cannot save you, praying to someone besides God can’t save you, giving to the poor can’t save you, helping your neighbor shovel his driveway can’t save you either…there is only one way! And you deny the only way, which is by grace, through faith alone in God alone. To you it is foolishness; just as the Bible said it would be with the “many”, which is why there are only a “few” that are saved, a remnant…has always been god’s way and will always continue to be that way. No one need remain that way as long as they are breathing and not brain dead.

Please show me a scriptural passage that says :" justificatiion is salvation from the punishment of sin". Just because you say it, doesn’t make it true. We are saved/justified through grace by faith when we are baptized. This is scriptural. But it does not mean that we are freed of future sin, only that we are born again and have a fresh start. From then on, we must live lives of love and good works to gain eternal life, demonstrating that we are cooperating with the Holy spirit within us.

A justified person will then begin the santification process immediately after receiving the Holy Spirit; those works which God preordained before time, is the testimony of “living faith” before men, not God. This is James whole point; faith without works is phony. You will know them by their fruits etc etc.

Okay. so now you agree. Faith must be accompanied by works so Sola Fide (Faith alone) is not true. You see, we believe what you say here.(other than the testimony of our works is before God and Man, although to be fair, God knows what is in our hearts). We also understand that to gain eternal life requires sanctification. Nothing unclean will enter heaven.

You are mistaken when you stated we have received the HS at conception; you will not find that in Scripture pertaining to the majority of Christians…Christ was filled of course and probably john the Baptist in the womb if i recall correctly.

What gives you that spark of life? Is it not the spirit of God?

 

[DerekD]

The problem comes only from you thinking you’re really onto something different. We trust God for the gift of salvation as well, we just lack the over-confidence that the erroneous doctrine of OSAS brings with it. Again, like Paul, we continue with Gods grace to strive for the prize not yet obtained. This is the real gospel, which you’ve yet to accept. What *we do *counts, of course, because that’s His will. Praise God!

Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. Phil 3:12-14

What do you think the prize is? Salvation? No, Paul already has that; so what is the prize? This passage is not difficult, but to the unregenerate it is difficult…are you regenerate or unregenerate? What is the prize?

Perhaps this is ambiguous on the Holy Spirits part…nah.

 

[DerekD]

Derek, I would like to add one thing: if salvation is by “faith only” certainly this “faith only” concept excludes even faith gained by reading the Bible - right? Why the need for this added work; it can’t save you, if you are correct?

Again, PEACE FRIEND…

Perhaps you can restate your “tough” question. You keep mixing salvivic grace through faith with other grace; part of you theological confusion wrtought by your misunderstandings of God and His church; again talk to your sister.

 

[DerekD]

Derek,
Your answer to the question " What is the source of your theology?" is It is obvious to anyone who is saved? What makes you so sure you are saved and not just deluded. You know, Jim Jones and Charles Manson made similar claims with exactly the same level of support and credentials that you are showing. I’m not saying you are a mass murderer, but I’m simply pointing out that you you need a little more to support your claims than " its obvious"

You also need to recognize that you don’t come off as a very credible witness when you come on a Catholic Website geered toward apologetics and make the claim that Catholics don’t think for themselves. It just shows your biases and your lack of understanding of Catholicism.

The name of this website is Catholic Answers Forum. We are here to answer your questions about Catholicism. I suggest you take advantage of that and learn the truth about Catholicism rather than attack strawmen that you or others have created out of your ignorance. The truth will set you free.

As for the Catholic claim that our doctrines come from the apostles. These are not idle boasts. It is the truth. Pick a doctrine and we can show you the continuity of teaching through back the full 2000 years. Just to show you an example, lets address your statement that the seven sacraments are not Apostolic. Since you will give credence to the Eucharist and Baptism, lets chose Priestly ordination as a test case.

Lets start with the New Testament accounts. First of all, Jesus game 12 men special rights and power and called them Apostles. This was the beginning of the Episcopate.
He made one, Peter, the leader, in Matthew 16 and confirmed that in Luke 20 and John 21. This became the position of Pope. He also appointed 72 other men t o preach and cure the sick. These were the first priests. They had special power, but less than the Apostles.

Paul describes the ordination and responsibilities of bishops deacons and priest (presbyters) in his letters to Timothy and Titus. He tells them to appoint Presbyters in every town and to do this with the laying on of hands. The recognition of the roles of bishops, priests and deacons and their ordination rites are discussed through the centuries in letters and works from the Early church fathers, starting with the Didache (80AD) and St Clement’s letter to the Corinthians (96AD), continuing in St. Ignatius’s letters
(107AD) and through the history of the church.

For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” ***The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, ***

How do I know for sure? See Romans 8 above and 1 John below

And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

This Is Written That You May Know

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that ***you may know that you have eternal life. ***

Eternal life is no guess work unless you are not a believer, one who rejects the gospel, such as you have already stated, or you are new to the faith and God has yet to grant that assurance, which is a blessing to those who walk by faith and obedience to King Jesus.

---

If you think for yourself, then that is great; but when it comes to interpretation of scripture, you are not allowed to do that because your church is the only authority to interpret scripture and if you chose to you would be in violation of your church teaching on the subject, which is what i meant by my comment, but I did fail to be specific and apologize for that. This is why few Catholics actaully put emphasis on reading of Scripture, there is no incentive to do so. If you look around this forum you will see Catholics defending their church and others defending the Bible; interesting observation.

---

Pick a doctrine; where do I start? Justification by faith alone; that is a good start. Your teaching is to put both santification and justification together like co-joined twins at the hip; this is not found in scripture. If it were, then there would be no reason to distinquish justification and santicifation in the Bible at all…would there?

---

So they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, ***Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen to occupy ***this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.”

Who does the ordaining, man or God?

And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, {various} kinds of tongues.

This is what happens to those who have rejected the gospel of grace in favor of works; they cannot understand what the bible teaches by the power of the Holy Spirit and thus rely on the interpretation of men.

 

[DerekD]

Why can’t you just take St. James for what it is- a clear refutation of Sola Fide? There’s nothing legalistic in it, just the recognition that Faith without works to validate it, ends up being nothing more than empty words. St. Paul says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 13:
1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues 2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Please reconcile Ephesians 2 with James 2; “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.”

Based on your erroneous interpretation of James you create a direct contradiction to Scripture; so reconcile it.

So I would agree that Sin is bad. It is, by definition, turning away from God. . There is no where in scripture that suggests that future sins are forgiven at any time. You will not be able to show us such a verse because it does not exist. Scripturally, your PAST sins are forgiven when you are baptized or they are forgiven by an apostle or a priest who acts for Jesus.

Sin is not turning away from God, but rather directly assulting His perfect holiness. Sin separates the unbeliever from God and creates a barrier to the believer…right?

You are haliarious; He forgives all of our sins, past present and future; no wonder you live in fear of slavation; do I have it today or have I lost it? Don’t deny the many times you have beaten yourself and wondered if you were saved or not; this is not the power of God working.

BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED

Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter - why don’t you believe and trust Jesus? What do you think justification is? Never mind; you don’t believe the words of God.

I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name’s sake.

Just as the Bible does not need to say faith “alone”, because it is so implicit everywhere, that it becomes explicit; likewise the fact that all sins are forgiven is so implicit it becomes explicit. Since you reject the gospel you will not see this truth.

Ro 4:25
{He} who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.

Ro 5:16
The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment {arose} from one {transgression} resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification.

Ro 5:18
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

The all is referring to all types, rich, poor, black, white, yellow, green, old, young etc, not every single person who ever lived.

Please show me a scriptural passage that says :" justificatiion is salvation from the punishment of sin". Just because you say it, doesn’t make it true. We are saved/justified through grace by faith when we are baptized. This is scriptural. But it does not mean that we are freed of future sin, only that we are born again and have a fresh start. From then on, we must live lives of love and good works to gain eternal life, demonstrating that we are cooperating with the Holy spirit within us.

No where is water baptism taught in ascripture a s saving or removing sin; this would be a direct contradiction to Scripture, which you would have to reconcile, Acts 2:38 must be put into the proper gramattical context to understand the passage correctly otherwise it contradicts Scripture, but this is getting way over you understanding.

“As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; ***He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit ***and fire.” - John the Baptist speaking in Luke and Matthew

And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as {He did} upon us at the beginning. "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as {He gave} to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ - Peter speaking.

Okay. so now you agree. Faith must be accompanied by works so Sola Fide (Faith alone) is not true. You see, we believe what you say here.(other than the testimony of our works is before God and Man, although to be fair, God knows what is in our hearts). We also understand that to gain eternal life requires sanctification. Nothing unclean will enter heaven.

Do you know what holy is? Did you know that God’s children are holy as He is holy; there are no degrees of holiness. How can the Holy Spirit dwell in anyone that was not first cleansed from all unrighteousness? Please answer this?

 

[joe370]

Perhaps you can restate your “tough” question. You keep mixing salvivic grace through faith with other grace; part of you theological confusion wrtought by your misunderstandings of God and His church; again talk to your sister.

Perhaps I’ll give it another shot. So, you are saying that faith alone in Christ, is all we need to be saved, with the exception of reading our bibles?

What makes my sister or you, or me, the final authority when it comes to the teachings of Christ?

Is the bible via individual interpretation the final authority? If that is the case, how can I be certain that your interpretation or my sisters interpretation or my interpretation, of the bible, is correct? After all, I have just as much right to interpret the bible as you do, based on this doctrine, passed on to all by Martin Luther.

The bible, codified by the RCC in the 4th century, doesn’t mention any protestant churches either my friend. To which church do you belong? Perhaps that is the church built by God.

Derek,are you saying that Constantine built the R.C.C. and the true C.C. built by Jesus, spanned the first 4 centuries, at which point the RCC surfaced, and these 2 churches co-existed until the protestant reformation???

Derek, if I accept your interpretation of scripture, why shouldn’t I accept ALL the other Protestant interpretations of scripture - each one as committed and fanatical about the validity of their interpretation as you. There is ONE bible. If the Protestant interpretation of said bible is true, then they all should be able to speak with ONE voice. I have experienced a room full of people who call themselves Christians but belong to different denominations. They differ on pretty much EVERY point of doctrine. Because there is NO unity of Protestant doctrine, I cannot accept one individual interpretation of scripture. The reason why there are so many different Protestant churches is quite easy to answer: arguments over doctrine. Protestant churches split because of bitter disputes about doctrine - not love. If faith alone is all that is necessary, why all this division in the protestant world?

Looking forward to your answer to each respective question. For over 400 years now we can see the fruit of the Protestant Reformation. If the seeds planted were good seed, we would see good trees, and vice-a-versa. The plants that grew are fragmented, bitter/intolerant to other plants that grew from the same seed.

 

[jpjd]

Do you know what holy is? Did you know that God’s children are holy as He is holy; there are no degrees of holiness. How can the Holy Spirit dwell in anyone that was not first cleansed from all unrighteousness? Please answer this?

That’s what the Sacrament of Reconciliation is for (also referred to as the Sacrament of Penance or the Sacrament of Confession). Through this sacrament our sins are forgiven and grace comes into our soul again.

I would turn your questions right back around to you, because the Protestant way makes no sense. How do you as a Protestant stay righteous when you sin? And if you don’t stay righteous, doesn’t that conflict with OSAS? And if you do stay righteous, how can the Holy Spirit be in the presence of sin?

 

[fhansen]

Do you know what holy is? Did you know that God’s children are holy as He is holy; there are no degrees of holiness. How can the Holy Spirit dwell in anyone that was not first cleansed from all unrighteousness? Please answer this?

Could you explain to us, oh holy one, what it means to be holy-what it feels like to be as holy as God even while not really being holy, but, oh yeah, reputedly imputedly, kinda, sorta, maybe holy-not even sinlessly holy?