# Was Jesus deliberately ambiguous? #

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paul_c said:
Derek,
Your answer to the question " What is the source of your theology?" is It is obvious to anyone who is saved? What makes you so sure you are saved and not just deluded. You know, Jim Jones and Charles Manson made similar claims with exactly the same level of support and credentials that you are showing. I’m not saying you are a mass murderer, but I’m simply pointing out that you you need a little more to support your claims than " its obvious"

You also need to recognize that you don’t come off as a very credible witness when you come on a Catholic Website geered toward apologetics and make the claim that Catholics don’t think for themselves. It just shows your biases and your lack of understanding of Catholicism.

The name of this website is Catholic Answers Forum. We are here to answer your questions about Catholicism. I suggest you take advantage of that and learn the truth about Catholicism rather than attack strawmen that you or others have created out of your ignorance. The truth will set you free.

As for the Catholic claim that our doctrines come from the apostles. These are not idle boasts. It is the truth. Pick a doctrine and we can show you the continuity of teaching through back the full 2000 years. Just to show you an example, lets address your statement that the seven sacraments are not Apostolic. Since you will give credence to the Eucharist and Baptism, lets chose Priestly ordination as a test case.

Lets start with the New Testament accounts. First of all, Jesus game 12 men special rights and power and called them Apostles. This was the beginning of the Episcopate.
He made one, Peter, the leader, in Matthew 16 and confirmed that in Luke 20 and John 21. This became the position of Pope. He also appointed 72 other men t o preach and cure the sick. These were the first priests. They had special power, but less than the Apostles.

Paul describes the ordination and responsibilities of bishops deacons and priest (presbyters) in his letters to Timothy and Titus. He tells them to appoint Presbyters in every town and to do this with the laying on of hands. The recognition of the roles of bishops, priests and deacons and their ordination rites are discussed through the centuries in letters and works from the Early church fathers, starting with the Didache (80AD) and St Clement’s letter to the Corinthians (96AD), continuing in St. Ignatius’s letters
(107AD) and through the history of the church.
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And nodding.
 
paul_c said:
Why can’t you just take St. James for what it is- a clear refutation of Sola Fide? There’s nothing legalistic in it, just the recognition that Faith without works to validate it, ends up being nothing more than empty words. St. Paul says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 13:
1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues 2 but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.

So I would agree that Sin is bad. It is, by definition, turning away from God. . There is no where in scripture that suggests that future sins are forgiven at any time. You will not be able to show us such a verse because it does not exist. Scripturally, your PAST sins are forgiven when you are baptized or they are forgiven by an apostle or a priest who acts for Jesus.

Please show me a scriptural passage that says :" justificatiion is salvation from the punishment of sin". Just because you say it, doesn’t make it true. We are saved/justified through grace by faith when we are baptized. This is scriptural. But it does not mean that we are freed of future sin, only that we are born again and have a fresh start. From then on, we must live lives of love and good works to gain eternal life, demonstrating that we are cooperating with the Holy spirit within us.

Okay. so now you agree. Faith must be accompanied by works so Sola Fide (Faith alone) is not true. You see, we believe what you say here.(other than the testimony of our works is before God and Man, although to be fair, God knows what is in our hearts). We also understand that to gain eternal life requires sanctification. Nothing unclean will enter heaven.

What gives you that spark of life? Is it not the spirit of God?
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joe370 said:
Perhaps I’ll give it another shot. So, you are saying that faith alone in Christ, is all we need to be saved, with the exception of reading our bibles?

What makes my sister or you, or me, the final authority when it comes to the teachings of Christ?

Is the bible via individual interpretation the final authority? If that is the case, how can I be certain that your interpretation or my sisters interpretation or my interpretation, of the bible, is correct? After all, I have just as much right to interpret the bible as you do, based on this doctrine, passed on to all by Martin Luther.

The bible, codified by the RCC in the 4th century, doesn’t mention any protestant churches either my friend. To which church do you belong? Perhaps that is the church built by God.

Derek,are you saying that Constantine built the R.C.C. and the true C.C. built by Jesus, spanned the first 4 centuries, at which point the RCC surfaced, and these 2 churches co-existed until the protestant reformation???

Derek, if I accept your interpretation of scripture, why shouldn’t I accept ALL the other Protestant interpretations of scripture - each one as committed and fanatical about the validity of their interpretation as you. There is ONE bible. If the Protestant interpretation of said bible is true, then they all should be able to speak with ONE voice. I have experienced a room full of people who call themselves Christians but belong to different denominations. They differ on pretty much EVERY point of doctrine. Because there is NO unity of Protestant doctrine, I cannot accept one individual interpretation of scripture. The reason why there are so many different Protestant churches is quite easy to answer: arguments over doctrine. Protestant churches split because of bitter disputes about doctrine - not love. If faith alone is all that is necessary, why all this division in the protestant world?

Looking forward to your answer to each respective question. 👍 For over 400 years now we can see the fruit of the Protestant Reformation. If the seeds planted were good seed, we would see good trees, and vice-a-versa. The plants that grew are fragmented, bitter/intolerant to other plants that grew from the same seed.
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jpjd said:
That’s what the Sacrament of Reconciliation is for (also referred to as the Sacrament of Penance or the Sacrament of Confession). Through this sacrament our sins are forgiven and grace comes into our soul again.

I would turn your questions right back around to you, because the Protestant way makes no sense. How do you as a Protestant stay righteous when you sin? And if you don’t stay righteous, doesn’t that conflict with OSAS? And if you do stay righteous, how can the Holy Spirit be in the presence of sin?
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Welcome JP! Nodding for you, too!

😃
 
fhansen said:
Could you explain to us, oh holy one, what it means to be holy-what it feels like to be as holy as God even while not really being holy, but, oh yeah, reputedly imputedly, kinda, sorta, maybe holy-not even sinlessly holy?
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And nodding for you.
 
paul_c said:
For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” ***The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, ***

How do I know for sure? See Romans 8 above and 1 John below 🙂

And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

This Is Written That You May Know

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that ***you may know that you have eternal life. ***

Eternal life is no guess work unless you are not a believer, one who rejects the gospel, such as you have already stated, or you are new to the faith and God has yet to grant that assurance, which is a blessing to those who walk by faith and obedience to King Jesus.
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You read these Epistles very selectively, noting only those passages that seem to support your personal interpretation. This is the danger of personal interpretation - selective reading. You speak with contempt about the Church interpreting scripture for Catholics, but the church wrote the scripture and knows what it means and understands the context behind the writings. Why do you think its superior to try to understand it on your own. Do you really believe that you personally have more insight on the Bible than the Catholic Church?

As for Romans, have you ever read it in its entirety or do you just use bible tracts, which selectively pull out readings out of context which then miss the truth.
Have you seen how Roman’s starts: Here is the beginning of Chapter 2:
1 Therefore, you are without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment. For by the standard by which you judge another you condemn yourself, since you, the judge, do the very same things.
2 We know that the judgment of God on those who do such things is true.
3 Do you suppose, then, you who judge those who engage in such things and yet do them yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?
4 Or do you hold his priceless kindness, forbearance, and patience in low esteem, unaware that the kindness of God would lead you to repentance?
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his works:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness.
9 Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

Does this sound like he’s saying that you can be saved once and for all by just believing in Christ? No. you must persevere in good works. What he is describing in Chapter 8 is part of a long several chapter discussion on why simply following the Jewish laws without Faith in Jesus is insufficient.
You know very little about what the Catholic church teaches, so perhaps it would be better for you to ask what the church teaches rather than to tell us what it teaches. We read the Scripture probably as much as you do. I personally read 5 chapters per day plus I hear 2-3 additional readings at daily mass and then whatever additional reading I do for apologetics. I’ve been reading the Bible daily since the gave me my first copy in 6th grade ccd class. Most Catholic apologists will use exclusively scripture in discussing theology and salvation with Protestants because it is accepted as a common denominator. As for the Catholic Church’s interpretation of scripture. At one point, I thought I could interpret scripture for myself and occasionally found myself in conflict with church teachings. I then took the time to understand why, and I found that in every case, the church had considered things that I had not. I learned to trust the church. After many years of this, I find that I am never in conflict now.
You can look no futher than the Roman’s 2 quote above. Clearly, you must persevere in doing good works. And what is the reason to distinguish between sanctification and justification? In the end you will either have eternal life or you won’t and this will require you to be holy.

And you.
 
paul_c said:
God works through men when appointing within the Church. In Acts, it is the apostles that baptize and lay on hands in healing and ordaining. There is no gospel or Grace or a Gospel of works. There is one gospel that was given to the Apostles to pass down through the ages. It is based on God’s grace, but requires men to do the works that those graces allow.
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And again, for you.
 
joe370 said:
Hey Derek, you said:

Reading the bible won’t save you either. Although it is the very voice of God and the Holy spirit can remove the veil of blindness to the gospel…

Thanks for answering my questions; I’ll just touch on each one, a little at a time. If I choose never to go to church, or read my bible (the very voice of God) - and simply accept the fact that believing that Jesus is my Savior through His work on the cross then that is all I need to do? No church or bible, If I choose to opt out, just Christ? Do you attend the church of Jesus Christ, latter day saints simply to worship Jesus Christ with other Christians, or is there some edification that takes place from pastors or minister? If not, then, does everyone simply bring their spiritually inspired beliefs of what the bible teaches to the assembly? In other words, could I attend your church and bring my spiritually inspired beliefs of what the bible teaches to the assembly to which you belong, without any resistance?

Is the link below the church to which you belong?

lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=e419fb40e21cef00VgnVCM1000001f5e340aRCRD
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And nodding again for you.
 
paul_c said:
Derek,
what do you really expect to get from posting on this website? You make bold, but completely unsubstantiated proclamations of your faith, while at the same time declaring that you alone know more about scriptural interpretation than the accumulated wisdom of the Catholic Church. Frankly, you have so much to learn. You will never convince anyone of your point of view if you simply claim that your interpretation comes from God, without anything to substantiate your statement.

Do you not see the irony in your discussion above on obedience and humility? Where have you demonstrated any obedience, like Catholics show to their leaders, or humility. After all, you are on record saying that you know more about God than the Catholic church and have been awarded heaven… Give that some consideration.
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And you.
 
FreedByTruth said:
These questions are exactly the ones that lead me to see that Bible based Christianity is only a piece of the entire Truth. I thoroughly agree that all should have access to a Bible that they can understand, but the way that Martin Luther set about doing so has resulted in a lot of confusion over the Bible’s role in the Church and our role in interpreting it. Without the traditions of the apostles of Christ and without the protection of the Holy Spirit, the doctrines in the Bible become many different things for many different people. Because Christ wanted us to be united, it’s hard for me to believe that the Bible is the only basis he left us for our faith in Him. There must be more to Christianity than the Good Book.
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Nodding for you, too, Freed!
 
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