# Was Jesus deliberately ambiguous? #

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rinnie said:
If this is true why did Jesus Christ establish the CC. Why was there never a church before Pentecost. His Church on earth was never established before Pentecost. If it was where was it?

And if I may add the RCC is not led by the Jews and the Jewish converts it is led by the Advocate the Holy Spirit. Big fat difference there.
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Good question, Rinnie.
 
rinnie said:
That among faith without works is fruitless.

Not to mention Mat 7:21 like 6:46 rom 2:6-8
Rom 2:13
Heb 10:26-27
Jas 2:14
Jas 2:17 Jas 2;18-20 Jas 2;24

Just to get you started.

Yes we do have to do something to keep it. Its called the ten commandments. What do you think that they like just fell off the face of the bible or what.

How about Love one another. Is that a work.

Honor you Father and Mother. Is that a work.

Confess your sins is that not a work. I could go on forever.
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You make some good points, Rinnie.
 
But i’m closer to returning to Catholicism now, than i’ve ever been.

🙂
 
davidv said:
Scriptural support has been provided. It has been rejected out of hand.

You are only partially correct.
Christ is the head of the Church, the King.
He has appointed a representative, the Pope, to be the visible head of the Church until He returns.
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Good point, David.

👍
 
rinnie said:
Well see it just goes to show your ignorance for the Catholic faith. The RCC is led by the Power of the Holy Spirit. The Pope is just a human like anyone else in this world and can sin and make mistakes.

The only Power the Pope has or will ever have is given to him from above from God. All the Pope has is the authority to teach and be the Father figure to the household of the faith Is 22;21.

To lead and guide the flock John 21:15-17

To say that the RCC is led by the Pope is not true. The Catholic Church is led THROUGH the Pope by the Power of the Holy Spirit.
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(Nodding his head in agreement.)
 
paul_c said:
I would agree that you can not get to heaven based solely on your works. This is covered in the sermon on the mount, where those that pray, fast and give alms for public aclaim have already recieved their reward. But those that did those same things for the love of God, were indeed rewarded by the Father. And that’s the rub, works alone can’t save you. But works done out of love are required to demonstrate that you are following the Lord.

Look, of course we don’t believe in justification by Faith alone. The Apostles and Jesus both taught to the contrary. St. Paul said in 1Corinthians 13, If I have faith enough to move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. St. James, directly answering the heritical view that Faith alone was sufficient spent half of the second chapter of his epistle saying mutliple times in multiple ways that Faith without works is Dead. In matthew 7: 21-23, Jesus said that not all that call him Lord will achieve eternal life, but only those that do the will of God. In Matthew 25 31-46, He says that at the last judgment those that carry out acts of mercy will be saved but those that don’t will be condemned. Sure there are verses that tell of the importance of Faith (because it is indeed important), but there are NONE that say you can be saved by Faith alone (because this is not true).
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(And nodding his head in agreement with PC, too.)
 
rinnie said:
[/sign]

Exactly nothing in this world is possible without Grace. Gods grace alone is what puts our whole being into play. With Grace we acquire Faith and with faith we have works. And with Grace through faith and with good works all good things are possible. Without the grace of God nothing is possible.
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(Still nodding.)
 
paul_c said:
The purity of the Bible you say? They took 7 books OUT of the bible because they didn’t like the theology. and MARTIN LUTHER even added a few words to the New Testament which actually changed the meaning of St. Paul’s letter to fit Luther’s theology.

What do you describe as legalism in the Catholic church? The church simply is following its mandated form Jesus form Matthew 28:

18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

It is teaching all nations to observe what Jesus commanded them to do. And note, this was verbal, not the written scripture. And also notice his promise to be with the Church to the end of the age.

sure, 2000 years is insignificant in the face of eternity. BUT, it is Significant because it means the church has been around since Jesus ascended to heaven. If you read Acts, even before Pentacost, Peter led the apostles and replaced Judas with Matthias. He was following Jesus commission to him in Matthew 16 (to build the church on St Peter) and John 21 (to feed his sheep).

I disagree. God does respect and love everyone. He gave us all free will and lets us use it He doesn’t force himself on anyone but lets us come to him willingly (or shun him as well). This is very respectful of creatures who are infinitely unworthy compared to God.
But you are wrong about the Catholic Church. Jesus set it up and looks over it. like it or not, every thing you know about Jesus comes from the Church, including the Bible you cling to. God also set up authority on earth. He told his disciples to follow the teachings of the high priests, even though they were corrupt because they sat on the Chair of Moses. Similarly, he set up St. Peter to run the church and told him that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church. Authority is needed to interpret scripture, Because Protestants respect no authority other than their own, there are counltess independent views of what scripture means. Since there is only one truth, you know that these are all independent views can not be all right.
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(And nodding.)
 
joe370 said:
Soc, you said:

Good questions! Not sure how Evangelical Ed would answer.

👍
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Does this even make sense to anyone? Did Jesus not said I am the Church.

n eph 5:25 Husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church and handed himself over for her to sanctify her cleansing her by the bath of water with the word, that he might present to himself the church in splendor without spot or wrinkle or any such thing that she might be holy without blemish.

Now here is what I am hearing. Jesus died for the Church, became the Church and then left the Church? Is that what they are trying to say. IF so not only do I disagree, scripture sure does too.

It makes perfect sense. Yes, Jesus is the church to which he is the head and savior, and he is the builder:

“I will build my church.”

I’m not letting you off the hook that easy. LOL…Perhaps you can ask Ed and let me know. In the mean time, could you please give me the name of the man that built the C.C. 👍

(And nodding.)
 
joe370 said:
Hi Derek, you said:

Excuse me for putting my 2 cents in here…

Not at all; It’s good to meet you. 👍

…but I beg to differ; the reformers brought back the purity of the gospel that was perverted by legalism. It is history repeating itself as the NT clearly demonstrates that legalism was pervasive among the Jews and the Jewish converts and had to be and continues to this day to be a problem.

**Could you please identify for me the reformed church, in the world today, that has infused Jesus’ church with the purity of the gospel that was perverted by legalism, and the time period when this happened?
**

To make a cliam that your church has been around 2 thousand years means little to nothing in the sight of God. That would be 2 days in His book.

**Yes, a thousands years is like a day to God; He exists outside of time and space. It’s Jesus’ church; he built it; I just belong to it. The fact that Jesus’ church was either born on Pentecost or the 10th century, or the 16th century, or the 20th century, “means little to nothing in the sight of God?” Is that what you are saying?
**:eek:

God is not a respector of anyone and His church has been around phiscally since the day of Pentecost and spiritually since before the foundation of the world; long before there was a Catholic Church.
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**Novel perspective:
  1. “For there is no respect of persons with God.” Acts 2:11 OK…What does this passage have to do with the question: give me the name of the man who built the C.C.? :confused: Jesus said: I will build my church.
  2. Jesus’ church has been around physically since the day of Pentecost.
Yup…
  1. Jesus’ established church has been around "since before the foundation of the world, long before there was a C.C.
Which is it: since Pentecost, or since before the foundation of the earth? I must admit, I have never heard that one before. Jesus’ established church, on Pentecost, headed by the Apostles and their successors via the imposition of hands, guided by the holy spirit, has been around since before the foundation of the world; long before there was a C.C.?

Please expound; I’m all ears!👍

Great to have you here at CAF. 👍**

(And nodding.)
 
pneuma07 said:
I was basically inviting to perceive that the point of view you are assuming, so to say as experiment, ie that Christ’s original apostolic model did not fail, keeps it simple, makes us free from postulating this and that in order to reject it. 🙂
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Yes, it does keep it simple, P7!

👍
 
pneuma07 said:
… And you will see good guys attacking the model, and the delegated legitimate christian authority presiding over the preservation and the development of the deposit of the faith, from every possible corner, with many different points of view and approaches, often insightful, often in contradiction with each other.
…
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True. It seems as though it’s a Satanic onslaught!

:eek:
 
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