# Was Jesus deliberately ambiguous? #

  • Thread starter Thread starter Socrates4Jesus
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Hey Soc,

I just got vaccinated for H1N1 with my wife and three kids. Not fun, but probably getting the flu is much worse. I hope you and your son are doing better.

God bless,
Ut
 
I’ll bite. Socrates, you said:

*]I definitely cannot rely on the Bible alone to show me the truth about some things.

OK…So who can you rely on? Jesus’ church sent out to teach (as the father sent me, so I send you) - or one of the many man-made churches stemming from the 16th century, built on the foundation of the reformers?

*]One reason for this is that the Bible appears unclear about important doctrines, such as the Sacrament of baptism, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and the succession of Apostolic authority.

**The bible is crystal clear on these things. If you need biblical proof, again, let me or anyone here at CAF know.

**
*]Since i cannot rely on the Bible and reason alone to guide me, i need the help of someone who knows what the truth is.

**The bible and reason alone were the keys to my conversion! The help you seek is the holy spirit, Who is guiding/protecting Jesus’ established church…
**

*]That someone has to be some kind of authority who has some knowledge of the truth to which i’m not privy.

I asked you several times yesterday: give me the name of the man that built the CC? First you gave me a quasi-definitive answer, then you quoted a biblical passage irrelevant to the question, then you said Peter. Soc, give me the name of the man that built the CC and you will find that "someone."

*]The alternatives for such an authority and teacher are the many Protestant denominations, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, or perhaps some other authority.

**By answering the preceding question, you will have your answer to this question.
**

*]Peter was an authority (perhaps even the authority of authorities) of Jesus’ early Church.

**And I tell you that you are Peter, (kepha) - and on this rock (kepha) - I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

He was and his successors are. Jesus’ church is built on Peter. Jesus promised that hell (covered the whole hell issue already) - would never prevail against his church built on Kepha. The important point to remember is the fact that Jesus is the builder of the church as opposed to mere men.
**

*]There was a kind of chain of command of authorities, for the Church in Jerusalem gave instructions to the churches outside Jerusalem.

**OK…Did this “kind of chain of command of authorities” for Jesus’ one church in Jerusalem fade away until the protestant reformation? If so, then which church picked up where Jesus’ church left off? Or, is this chain of command for Jesus’ one church still in tact? **

*]Even Paul–who was God’s chosen missionary to the Greeks–was under the authority of these authorities in Jerusalem.

**Agreed! What does this tell you about sola scriptura?
**

*]After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, it makes sense that these authorities of the church in Jerusalem would relocate and continue their chain of command.

**Agreed! **

*]It makes sense that the Apostles would choose successors, and that these successors would continue the chain of command that began in Jerusalem, even after the fall of Jerusalem.

**Agreed! What’s your point? **

*]It’s quite possible that the Church in Rome became their base of operations after the fall of Jerusalem.

**If you believe that Jesus built the CC then believe that his church relocated and continued in Rome. If the fact that Jesus’ Church in Rome did not became Jesus’ base of operations after the fall of Jerusalem, then the CC is not the church built by God. Pick one. One thing is for certain: none of the non-Catholic churches stemming from the 16th century, became Jesus’ base of operations after the fall of Jerusalem. Poetic justice when you consider the fact that the Roman empire persecuted Jesus, in the sense that it persecuted Christians. *“Paul, why are you persecuting me.” ***

*]The Catholic Church of today claims to be the end result of this chain of command.

**As do all non-Catholic churches, built by men as opposed to God, 1500 years removed from the time that God built His church. **
 
I’ll bite. Socrates, you said:

*]I definitely cannot rely on the Bible alone to show me the truth about some things.

OK…So who can you rely on? Jesus’ church sent out to teach (as the father sent me, so I send you) - or one of the many man-made churches stemming from the 16th century, built on the foundation of the reformers?

*]One reason for this is that the Bible appears unclear about important doctrines, such as the Sacrament of baptism, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and the succession of Apostolic authority.

**The bible is crystal clear on these things. If you need biblical proof, again, let me or anyone here at CAF know.

**
*]Since i cannot rely on the Bible and reason alone to guide me, i need the help of someone who knows what the truth is.

**The bible and reason alone were the keys to my conversion! The help you seek is the holy spirit, Who is guiding/protecting Jesus’ established church…
**

*]That someone has to be some kind of authority who has some knowledge of the truth to which i’m not privy.

I asked you several times yesterday: give me the name of the man that built the CC? First you gave me a quasi-definitive answer, then you quoted a biblical passage irrelevant to the question, then you said Peter. Soc, give me the name of the man that built the CC and you will find that "someone."

*]The alternatives for such an authority and teacher are the many Protestant denominations, the Greek Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church, or perhaps some other authority.

**By answering the preceding question, you will have your answer to this question.
**

*]Peter was an authority (perhaps even the authority of authorities) of Jesus’ early Church.

**And I tell you that you are Peter, (kepha) - and on this rock (kepha) - I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.

He was and his successors are. Jesus’ church is built on Peter. Jesus promised that hell (covered the whole hell issue already) - would never prevail against his church built on Kepha. The important point to remember is the fact that Jesus is the builder of the church as opposed to mere men.
**

*]There was a kind of chain of command of authorities, for the Church in Jerusalem gave instructions to the churches outside Jerusalem.

**OK…Did this “kind of chain of command of authorities” for Jesus’ one church in Jerusalem fade away until the protestant reformation? If so, then which church picked up where Jesus’ church left off? Or, is this chain of command for Jesus’ one church still in tact? **

*]Even Paul–who was God’s chosen missionary to the Greeks–was under the authority of these authorities in Jerusalem.

**Agreed! What does this tell you about sola scriptura?
**

*]After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, it makes sense that these authorities of the church in Jerusalem would relocate and continue their chain of command.

**Agreed! **

*]It makes sense that the Apostles would choose successors, and that these successors would continue the chain of command that began in Jerusalem, even after the fall of Jerusalem.

**Agreed! What’s your point? **

*]It’s quite possible that the Church in Rome became their base of operations after the fall of Jerusalem.

**If you believe that Jesus built the CC then believe that his church relocated and continued in Rome. If the fact that Jesus’ Church in Rome did not became Jesus’ base of operations after the fall of Jerusalem, then the CC is not the church built by God. Pick one. One thing is for certain: none of the non-Catholic churches stemming from the 16th century, became Jesus’ base of operations after the fall of Jerusalem. Poetic justice when you consider the fact that the Roman empire persecuted Jesus, in the sense that it persecuted Christians. *“Paul, why are you persecuting me.” ***

*]The Catholic Church of today claims to be the end result of this chain of command.

**As do all non-Catholic churches, built by men as opposed to God, 1500 years removed from the time that God built His church. **
 
evangelical_ed said:
Prayer to God, not Mary.

:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Not that I think much is still going on in the way of actual discussion any more, but Catholics ask Mary to prayer for them, or in the much older usage of the word pray that equals to ask for, beseech, we “pray” to Mary. In other words we ask others to pray for us, Mary being one of those whom we ask to pray for us.

God Bless,
Maria
 
I just came on this thread and I am NOT going to read through 91 pages of thoughts.

My answer to the question is this – which according to the law of averages has already been presented numerous times.

Was Jesus deliberately ambiguous? NO NEVER

My wife gets confused with my words when I’m as clear as my abilities allow. In other words, applying my experience to the question of this thread - I don’t think we should give Jesus the credit for our taking His statements as ambiguous. I think we can do that effortlessly on our own.

In fact, since I believe that the Holy Spirit resides in all Christians and that all Christians don’t agree I don’t fault the Holy Spirit. I fault our maturity. We can be SO SURE of what we think God is doing in our lives – only to be totally wrong – and sometimes being only partially correct – and sometimes being almost correct. – but very seldom being totally correct.

Don’t forget St. Peter, one who in spite of his huge heart, said candidly …
(1 Pet 4:18) And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
Click to expand...
As a total speculation here … Maybe God gives each of us JUST ENOUGH grace to squeak by. Being too confident is poison to a Christian because God can say something as simple as DON’T EAT THE FRUIT OF THAT TREE. Yet, that simple unambiguous statement can be made incredibly complex by subtlety. My experience tells me that sin puts one on a instant guilt trip. It makes us think stupider and stupider. As Proverbs says - the wicked flee when no one pursues. God said - Adam; where are you? And Adam is trying to hide himself from God. Sin has screwed up his thinking so badly that Adam is thinking he can hide from God. That’s pretty pathetic. St. Francis I think was a clear thinking an individual as we’re going to find. He said at the end of his holy life – I’M JUST BEGINNING. All that He did up to that point he considered as not much. Dumb us – We think St. Francis is demonstrating humility. I say perhaps NOT. Maybe St. Francis is demonstrating TRUTH. TRUTH was his holiness and the truth was exactly the sentiments of St. Peter who, I’m sure through his personal experience at being a Christian was --** that the righteous will scarcely be saved.**

This is the great part about being Catholic. Because we walk on the shoulders of midgets. Midgets who really knew they were midgets and in their smallness God made them GIANTS. Being a Christian puts us on the path of smallness. While we’re on that path statements of scripture seem ambiguous because we’re too big. We can’t fit through the door. We’re too broad and the door is narrow. The greatest saints saw the TRUTH of their smallness and God made them great. To me the greatness of God was most profoundly manifest in his smallness when scripture reveals —
(Phil 2:6-9) Jesus, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Click to expand...
Jesus is the WAY. The way to greatness is to understand the truth of our smallness – my goodness – look at what we are in comparison to the universe. The the great God has an interest in US who are less that a speck of nothingness in the vastness of the universe. What did Satan do to us? He has made up stark raving mad. Being a Christian is very counter intuitive. It takes real faith, a real gift of God, to believe His word - that He was going to build a Church through a man like St. Peter (but someone who had an uncanny counter intuitive idea that the righteous are barely going to make it) and because of that faith - faith that His eyes saw in the man before him one day in Ceserea Phillipi - YOU are the Christ, the Son of the Living God – Jesus could perceive in this man one who REALLY GOT IT!! and one who He could say I’m going to build a Church through YOU and the gates of hell won’t prevail against it. St. Peter saw TRUTH – the truth of who he was and the truth of who was before Him. Clear thinking saved him and there wasn’t anything ambiguous about it.

MonFrere
 
rinnie said:
No Catholic’s don’t tell you tim does

Read 1 Tim 3:15

Might want to check it out. Tim. is who tells us that the Church has the foundation of the truth not us.

To be honest with you if you read Tim, all of you doubts should be pretty much summed up:thumbsup:
Click to expand...
… you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

(1 Tim. 3:15)
Thanks Rin!

👍
 
MariaG said:
Not that I think much is still going on in the way of actual discussion any more, but Catholics ask Mary to prayer for them, or in the much older usage of the word pray that equals to ask for, beseech, we “pray” to Mary. In other words we ask others to pray for us, Mary being one of those whom we ask to pray for us.

God Bless,
Maria
Click to expand...
I respectfully disagree, MG. Prayer is communication with one in heaven. Mary is in heaven. So communicating with her is prayer.

:rolleyes:
 
MonFrere said:
I just came on this thread and I am NOT going to read through 91 pages of thoughts.

My answer to the question is this – which according to the law of averages has already been presented numerous times.

Was Jesus deliberately ambiguous? NO NEVER

My wife gets confused with my words when I’m as clear as my abilities allow. In other words, applying my experience to the question of this thread - I don’t think we should give Jesus the credit for our taking His statements as ambiguous. I think we can do that effortlessly on our own. …
Click to expand...
Mon:

Do your words confuse your wife because you are always clear and cogent, or because you are sometimes unclear and not cogent?

🤷
 
**Boys! Please! **

Look, i have a proposal that might kill two birds with one stone.
 
You two are looking for a fight. Me, i’m trying to figure something out. So why don’t i give you a topic and you two carry on the debate?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top