Was Judas Iscariot a Bishop?

[EndTimes]

Whether Judas ever took that office remains a question, but there very clearly is an office.

Dozens of translations clearly imply that it’s the office of Apostleship
which was appointed to JudasI by Jesus before Judas’ treason and suicide
which is being referred to

 

[Zaccheus]

I disagree.
There is a very clear reference to an office.
Whether Judas ever took that office remains a question, but there very clearly is an office.

Of course there is an office. The rest of the Apostles were given that office. “Receive the Holy Spirit. Whose sins you shall forgive…”

But weren’t you saying Judas did become a bishop? Else why you reference to his ‘bishopric’? Peter quotes the psalm to show that Judas was made desolate, not to say that he had become a bishop.

Dozens of translations clearly imply that it’s the office of Apostleship
which was appointed to Judas by Jesus before Judas’ treason and suicide
which is being referred to

And End Times points out a truth. The reference is to the ministry Judas did have before he betrayed Christ.
Which was not the bishop’s office.

 

[vz71]

But weren’t you saying Judas did become a bishop?

I do not recall ever having said that.

Else why you reference to his ‘bishopric’?

Because it is a question that needs an answer.

 

[Cathoholic]

Zaccheus . . . .

Peter was not saying Judas possessed a bishop’s office.

I’m going to disagree with your partial-truth here Zaccheus.

St. Peter DID say Judas (in the context of Judas Iscariot) had a Bishoprick.

And now that Judas is dead, we need to replace Judas Isacariot with a new Bishop to take the place of the office that Judas Iscariot held.

Here it is again . . .

ACTS 1:16-26 16 Brethren, the scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David,
concerning Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17
For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry.
18 (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their language Akel′dama, that is, Field of Blood.) 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms,

‘Let his habitation become desolate,
and let there be no one to live in it’;

and

‘His (Judas’) office (Greek = “EPISCOPEN” or contextually Judas’ Bishoprick or “bishop’s OFFICE” or Judas’ “EPISCOPAL office”) let another take.’

21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us—one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” 23 And they put forward two, Joseph called Barsab′bas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthi′as. 24 And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi′as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.

Bold and parenthetical mine for emphasis and context.

.

‘His (Judas’) office (notice Judas occupied an office) . . .

‘His (Judas’) office (notice also Judas’ office is explicitly described as an episcopal office here, or in Greek “EPISCOPEN” you can see that here) . . .

His (Judas’) office let another take (they need to fill this bishop’s office vacancy that was formerly occupied by none other than Judas).

 

[Cathoholic]

The reason this concept is so important, is that aside from it being true, which it is true (Judas was a bishop), it helps the faithful realize this phenomena.

Thus this knowledge acts as a layer of protection for the faithful when they see a bad bishop.

Like the famous heretic BISHOP Nestorius (Died in 451 A.D.), who was a bad bishop, the faithful knowing this beforehand, are
less likely to be scandalized to the point of leaving the faith.

So the attitude is . . .

. . . . "A bad bishop? What else is new? We have had that all along. Our Lord Jesus warned us there would be weeds amongst the wheat.
St. Paul warned the elders at Ephesus too in Acts 20.
I’m staying right here in the Church!"

.

Instead of this attitude . . .

. . . "A bad bishop? I’m leaving the Church for somewhere else!"

.

ACTS 20:25-31 25 And now, behold, I know that all you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all of you, 27 for I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock,
in which the Holy Spirit has made you guardians,
to feed the church of the Lord which he obtained with his own blood. 29
I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you,
not sparing the flock;
30 and from
among your own selves
will arise men speaking perverse things,
to draw away the disciples after them.
31 Therefore be alert,
remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish every one
with tears.

 

[Bithynian]

ἐπισκοπή (episkope) is only used in the sense of “office” twice in the NT. Once at Acts 1:20 where Peter is citing Ps 109:9 (LXX 108:9) and at 1 Tim 3:1.

In the latter case, it’s unambiguous that Paul is referring to the office of bishop, and modern translations have followed that interpretation (RSV-CE and NRSV-CE).

In Acts, it’s a bit ambiguous. It’s important to note that ἐπισκοπή could be used specifically in reference to the episcopal office, but it’s general meaning is that of “office” or “a position of responsibility”. That is the sense in which the LXX translates the hebrew פְּקֻדָּה (pequddah) using ἐπισκοπή (or ἐπίσκεψις) in Ps 108:8, Numbers 4:16 and 1 Ch 24:19.

Most contemporary Catholic translations have prioritised the underlying Hebrew meaning of the quoted psalm in Acts 1:9. The RSV-CE translates it as “his office let another take”; NRSV-CE “let another take his position of overseer”; NAB-RE "may another take his office. All three translate ἐπισκοπή in 1 Tim 3:1 as “office of bishop”.

Even if you are to look at contemporary non-Catholic Bible translations, usually they distinguish between the use of ἐπισκοπή in Acts 1:9 and 1 Tim 3:1. The ESV, for example, has “office” in the former and “office of overseer” in the latter.

 

[EndTimes]

Thus this knowledge acts as a layer of protection for the faithful when they see a bad bishop.

But Judas wasn’t a Bishop…

And we don’t need a long-winded disputed argument
in order to be Protected from actual heterodox Bishops of Today…

_

 

[Cathoholic]

The Holy Spirit . . . .

Judas . . . was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry. . . Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. . . . ‘His (Judas’) office (Greek = “EPISCOPEN” or contextually Judas’ Bishoprick or “bishop’s OFFICE” or Judas’ “EPISCOPAL office”) let another take.’

.

St. Luke . . .

Judas . . . was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry. . . Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. . . . ‘His (Judas’) office (Greek = “EPISCOPEN” or contextually Judas’ Bishoprick or “bishop’s OFFICE” or Judas’ “EPISCOPAL office”) let another take.’

.

Cathoholic . . . .

Judas . . . was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in this ministry. . . Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. . . . ‘His (Judas’) office (Greek = “EPISCOPEN” or contextually Judas’ Bishoprick or “bishop’s OFFICE” or Judas’ “EPISCOPAL office”) let another take.’

.

EndTimes . . .

Judas wasn’t a Bishop

 

[tafan2]

You are the one who is interpreting “office” contextually as Bishop. There have been very convincing arguments made with regards to this being a bad translation, that it was simple the office of apostle.

Also, you have yet, unless I have missed it, pointed out where the apostles were made bishops. The answer of John 20 seems rather obvious to me, why am I wrong.

Again, you are hanging everything on the translation of one word. That is rather dubious. Do you have any other sources which concur with your belief?

 

[tafan2]

I will add that Judas may have been a priest. It was the teaching of the Council of Trent that Jesus ordained the apostles priests at the Last Supper when he said "Do this in commemoration of me’. It is not clear if Judas was still present at that point, but he may have been. It is very significant to this discussion, IMO, that the Council of Trent says explicitly that they were ordained priests and does not say they were ordained bishops:

If anyone shall say that by the words ‘Do this in commemoration of me’ Christ did not institute the apostles priests, or did not ordain that they and other priests should offer his body and blood: let him be anathema (Council of Trent, session 22, ch. 1)

If the aposltes were only priests at this point, there is no way Judas could have been a bishop. If they were ordained bishops, why did the Council of Trent not use that word? It would make no sense to use priest as opposed to bishops if that is what Jesus did at the Last Supper.

.

 

[Cathoholic]

tafan2 . . . .

Also, you have yet, unless I have missed it, pointed out where the apostles were made bishops.

Sure I did. Functionally. Here it is again.

The Apostles are in the process of ORDAINING someone to fill a episcopal office tafan2. (Judas’ episcopal office.)

Non-Bishops do NOT have the power to ordain!

You might object and say, “Well evidently Apostles do.”

In which case you are just making my point. That Apostles are in effect Bishops too.

 

[tafan2]

THis makes no sense. Everyone agrees the apostles were bishops by the time of the Acsention, so yes they had the power to ordain. But just because they were ordaining a new bishop does not mean that Judas was a bishop. He was an apostles who had not yet been made bishop at the time of his death. He may have been a priest.

 

[Cathoholic]

tafan2 . . .

Everyone agrees the apostles were bishops by the time of the Acsention (sic)

Does everyone “agree” with that?

When were they made bishops?

(I am not claiming to know that. All that I am claiming is Judas had a share in the Apostolic ministry, he implicitly exercised that function in the Gospels, and now that he is dead, his bishoprick must be filled via ordaining someone else to his “episcopen” which you deny is an episcopal office
based upon nothing but
ipse dixit [it is so because you say it is so].)

I’m glad you affirm at least the other Apostles in Acts 1 were Bishops (or at least admit they are functioning as Bishops).

 

[tafan2]

Does everyone “agree” with that?

Yes, everyone agrees with that on this thread.

When were they made bishops?

They were made bishops John 20:21-23 “Once more Jesus said to them, Peace be upon you; I came upon an errand from my Father, and now I am sending you out in my turn. 22 With that, he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit; 23 when you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven, when you hold them bound, they are held bound.”. And yes, I realize Thomas was not there, it is very probably that He made Thomas a bishop later when he showed him his hands and feet.

I am not claiming to know that. All that I am claiming is Judas had a share in the Apostolic ministry, he implicitly exercised that function in the Gospel

We all agree that Judas was an Apostle. We simply do not equate being an apostle with being a Bishop before the resurrection. There were no Bishops before the resurrection.

 

[Cathoholic]

tafan2 . . . .

They were made bishops John 20:21-23 “Once more Jesus said to them, Peace be upon you; I came upon an errand from my Father, and now I am sending you out in my turn. 22 With that, he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit; 23 when you forgive men’s sins, they are forgiven, when you hold them bound, they are held bound.”.

This is not particular to Bishops.
Priests have the power to forgive men’s sins.

Using your principles, someone else could come along and say they were ordained in Matthew 18 just as easily.

MATTHEW 18:18 18 Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

But of course the answer is we do not know WHEN these ordinations took place.

Or if what occurred in the Upper Room was an unfolding of their Apostleship (which already may have included all of Holy Orders in seed form).

We just don’t know.

What we DO KNOW, is that Judas occupied an “episcopen”.

And now that Judas is dead, the remaining Apostles are going to fill Judas’ “episcopen”.

And they feel totally free to ORDAIN the successor to Judas (at least this is implied from the text).

And they acknowledge Judas has a “share” in the same ministry THEY have.

You do not affirm these things.

I do.

.

• Judas occupied an “episcopen”.
• Now that Judas is dead, the remaining Apostles are going to fill Judas’ “episcopen”.
• The remaining Apostles feel free to ORDAIN the successor to Judas (Ordination is an episcopal function only).
• The Apostles acknowledge Judas has (“this ministry”) a “share” in the same ministry THEY have.
• The Apostles also acknowledge they are ordaining Matthias to JUDAS’ ministry who will now be “enrolled” WITH the remaining Apostles.

.

ACTS 1:16b-18, 20, 24-25 16 Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17
For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in THIS ministry. 18 (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. . . .
. . . 20 ‘His (Judas’) office (Greek = “EPISCOPEN” or contextually Judas’ Bishoprick or “bishop’s OFFICE” or Judas’ “EPISCOPAL office”) let another take.’ . . .
. . . 24 And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen 25 to take the place in THIS MINISTRY AND apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi′as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.

 

[tafan2]

But of course the answer is we do not know WHEN these ordinations took place.

That is correct (as I admitted before when I said I assumed), which means we do not know that Judas was a Bishop. We do know when they were made priests though. That is a teaching of the Church. So you have to argue that they were also made Bishops at the Last Supper while Judas was still present. That is the only time that makes sense for your argument. And that is somewhat of a stretch.

 

[Cathoholic]

tafan2 . . . .

So you have to argue that they were also made Bishops at the Last Supper

No I don’t.

I have never made that argument.

What I said is I don’t know when this occurred but whenever it was, it is clear Judas had a share in the same ministry as the Apostles.

Here it is again.

But of course the answer is we do not know WHEN these ordinations took place.

Or if what occurred in the Upper Room was an unfolding of their Apostleship (which already may have included all of Holy Orders in seed form).

And Judas’ office that needed to be replaced was explicitly an episcopen.

Maybe Apostles were Bishops at least in seed form.

I am not arguing yes or no to that.

Here once again is what I AM arguing . . . .

• Judas occupied an “episcopen”.
• Now that Judas is dead, the remaining Apostles are going to fill Judas’ “episcopen”.
• The remaining Apostles feel free to ORDAIN the successor to Judas (Ordination is an episcopal function only. Mere ministerial priests are not empowered to ordain. If Apostles can ordain, than by definition, Apostles ARE functioning as BISHOPS too.).
• The Apostles acknowledge Judas has (“this ministry”) a “share” in the same ministry THEY have.
• The Apostles also acknowledge they are ordaining Matthias to JUDAS’ ministry who will now be “enrolled” WITH the remaining Apostles.

.

ACTS 1:16b-18, 20, 24-25 16 Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17
For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in THIS ministry. 18 (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. . . .
. . . 20 ‘His (Judas’) office (Greek = “EPISCOPEN” or contextually Judas’ Bishoprick or “bishop’s OFFICE” or Judas’ “EPISCOPAL office”) let another take.’ . . .
. . . 24 And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen 25 to take the place in THIS MINISTRY AND apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi′as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.

 

[tafan2]

No I don’t.

I have never made that argument.

What I said is I don’t know when this occurred but whenever it was, it is clear Judas had a share in the same ministry as the Apostles.

Yes you do. We know when the apostles were made priests, the Council of Trent tells us. That was at the institution of the Eucharist. We do not know if Judas was still present, but I Grant you it might have been. So they had to be made a bishop either at the same time of after that point in time. Since Judas died shortly after, he had to be ordained a bishop during the Last Supper for your argument to be correct.

 

[AngelaMarie]

I’m confused I admit. When I went thru RCIA I was taught that the bishops were the successors of the Apostles, with the original 12 Apostles being unique. My mind of understanding is more inline with Catholic.

I dont think calling the Apostles bishops is accurate. They were the Apostles. They in turn, ordained the bishops?

 

[tafan2]

The original 12 were certainly unique. The office of apostleship us different than the office of bishop.
So perhaps one viewis they were ordained as priests by Jesus, and by virtue of being also being Apostles, they ordained the first bishops. But it is likely that they were ordained by Jesus as bishops after the resurrection.