Was Judas Iscariot a Bishop?

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To add, some of the apostles had to become bishops due to St James being the first bishop of Jerusalem.

It only seems reasonable to me that they were all bishops (except Judas of course)
 
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tafan2 . . . .
It only seems reasonable to me that they were all bishops (except Judas of course)
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Well it only seems reasonable to me that they were all bishops (not excepting Judas of course).

It seems reasonable to me that Judas has an episcopen, because the Bible explicitly says he posessed an episcopen.

It seems reasonable to me that Judas had a share in the same ministry as the Apostles, because the Bible explicitly says he had a share in the same ministry as the Apostles.

It seems reasonable to me that the Apostles in Acts 1, who now were ORDAINING a successor to Judas, after Matthias is ordained, Matthias is now enrolled WITH the remaining eleven Apostles in filling Judas’ episcopen because the Bible explicitly say so.
 
Again, if Judas was a bishop and we know when they were ordained as priests, you are limited to a very small window of time as yo when he was ordained a bishop. You ignore this point why?
 
tafan2 . . .
You ignore this point why?
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Two reasons.

1 - We don’t know when it occurred.
2 - We DO know that Judas had an episcopen.

Here once again is what I AM arguing . . . .
  • Judas occupied an “episcopen”.
  • Now that Judas is dead, the remaining Apostles are going to fill Judas’ “episcopen”.
  • The remaining Apostles feel free to ORDAIN the successor to Judas (Ordination is an episcopal function only. Mere ministerial priests are not empowered to ordain. If Apostles can ordain, than by definition, Apostles ARE functioning as BISHOPS too.).
  • The Apostles acknowledge Judas has (“this ministry”) a “share” in the same ministry THEY have.
  • The Apostles also acknowledge they are ordaining Matthias to JUDAS’ ministry who will now be “enrolled” WITH the remaining Apostles.
.
ACTS 1:16b-18, 20, 24-25 16 Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17
For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in THIS ministry. 18 (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. . . .
. . . 20 ‘His (Judas’) office (Greek = “EPISCOPEN” or contextually Judas’ Bishoprick or “bishop’s OFFICE” or Judas’ “EPISCOPAL office”) let another take.’ . . .
. . . 24 And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen 25 to take the place in THIS MINISTRY AND apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi′as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.
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Cathoholic said:
Two reasons.

1 - We don’t know when it occurred.
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Do you agree with Trent on the following:

“If anyone shall say that by the words ‘Do this in commemoration of me’ Christ did not institute the apostles priests, or did not ordain that they and other priests should offer his body and blood: let him be anathema (Council of Trent, session 22, ch. 1)”

So we do know when they were ordained priests.

Are you saying they were bishops before priests? This cannot be since it would go against the nature of the sacrament of Holy Orders.

So, if Judas was a bishop as you claim, how do you say you don’t know when it occurred. It had to after the institution of the Eucharist and before Judas’s death? Correct?
 
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tafan2 . . . .
“If anyone shall say that by the words ‘Do this in commemoration of me’ Christ did not institute the apostles priests, or did not ordain that they and other priests should offer his body and blood: let him be anathema (Council of Trent, session 22, ch. 1)”
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I am glad you are including Judas here finally tafan2. At least as a Priest.
“If anyone shall say that by the words ‘Do this in commemoration of me’ Christ did not institute the apostles except Judas as priests, or did not ordain that they and other priests should offer his body and blood: let him be anathema (NOT Council of Trent, session 22, ch. 1)”
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Now if you would only affirm that he had an episcopen.
 
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Cathoholic said:
I am glad you are including Judas here finally tafan2.
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Actually, above I made it clear that we do not know if Judas was still present, we know he left early. But I allowed for the possibility above so it’s not “finally”. But assuming he was present, we have him being a priest, not a bishop.

You are still ignoring my questions. Do you agree with the Council of Trent or not? If so, did he not have to be ordained a bishop after the institution if the Eucharist, at the last Supper?
 
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tafan2 (attempting to raise doubt concerning the presence of Judas at the Last Supper) . . .
Actually, above I made it clear that we do not know if Judas was still present . . .
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TRENT . . .
“If anyone shall say that by the words ‘Do this in commemoration of me’ Christ did not institute the apostles priests, or did not ordain that they and other priests should offer his body and blood: let him be anathema (Council of Trent, session 22, ch. 1)”
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tafan2’s position (although he wouldn’t put it this way) . . .
“If anyone shall say that by the words ‘Do this in commemoration of me’ Christ did not institute the apostles except Judas as priests, or did not ordain that they and other priests should offer his body and blood: let him be anathema (NOT Council of Trent, session 22, ch. 1)”
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Cross posted while I was writing my post. waiting for your answer to my questions.
 
tafan2 . . . .
Do you agree with the Council of Trent or not? If so, did he not have to be ordained a bishop after the institution if the Eucharist, at the last Supper?
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Of course I submit to the Council of Trent.

But there are things that occurred in the Upper Room that we are not aware of.

Do you agree with the Bible or not? If so, did Judas not have an episcopen that the Apostles felt needed to be filled?
 
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Cathoholic said:
Of course I submit to the Council of Trent.
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So you have to admit your claim that Judas performed functions reserved to a bishop is wrong.
Cathoholic said:
But there are things that occurred in the Upper Room that we are not aware of.
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Well in the Gospel of John, we are told that Judas left after his betrayal was foretold. And that, by the way is before Jesus’s rather legthy prayer, which it would be assumed was before the Eucharist. In the Synoptic gospels we are not told he leaves early, but it can be assumed since he has to go meet the high priests and take them to Jesus.
So we do not know for sure that Judas was gone before the Eucharist, but it us likely. Even if he was present, he had to leave shortly there after , so the window of time for ordination to the office of Bishop was quite short.

It is quite a stretch if the imagination to say that Jesus ordained the apostles as bishops after the Eucharist AND Judas was still present.

You have a translation if one word you are resting your entire claim on. Can you provide any theologian who agrees with your point?

If not, I am finished, I think my case is well made. I will leave it to any potential, if unlikely, readers to decide for themselves.
 
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EndTimes. You are misquoting me.

Please amend your post to reflect me pointing out YOU saying that.
 
tafan2 . . . .
So you have to admit your claim that Judas performed functions reserved to a bishop is wrong.
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Please include a quote so that I know what you are talking about and can see it in context.
 
tafan2 . . .
So we do not know for sure that Judas was gone before the Eucharist, but it us likely. Even if he was present, he had to leave shortly there after , so the window of time for ordination to the office of Bishop was quite short.
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Unless the Apostles were ordained a ministerial priest AND bishops at the same time.
 
Cathoholic said:
Please include a quote so that I know what you are talking about and can see it in context.
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Sorry, you claimed they were ordained priests, not bishops prior to the Last Supper.
Still , based on your agreement with Trent, you must admit you were wrong.

Here is the quote you requested.
Cathoholic said:
Jesus’ Apostles were also anointing the sick. This suggests they were already at least priests as non-priests cannot anoint the sick. (Preaching the Gospel, at least in some sense, is a Priestly function too by the way. Having Ministerial Priests = Having a Church to have such Priests.)
MARK 6:12-13 12 So they went out and preached that men should repent. 13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them.
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Now, have a good day.
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tafan2 . . . .
MARK 6:12-13 12 So they went out and preached that men should repent. 13 And they cast out many demons, and anointed with oil many that were sick and healed them.
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The Apostles were clearly functioning as priests here tafan2.

You may not like it, but in whatever capacity this was, they are carrying out the Ministry of Christ.

Perhaps not in the full Sacramental capacity of Holy Orders, but in some sense they were carrying on the Ministry of Jesus.

I’m disappointed that you still have not answered my points.

Here they are again.
  • Judas occupied an “episcopen”.
  • Now that Judas is dead, the remaining Apostles are going to fill Judas’ “episcopen”.
  • The remaining Apostles feel free to ORDAIN the successor to Judas (Ordination is an episcopal function only. Mere ministerial priests are not empowered to ordain. If Apostles can ordain, than by definition, Apostles ARE functioning as BISHOPS too.).
  • The Apostles acknowledge Judas has (“this ministry”) a “share” in the same ministry THEY have.
  • The Apostles also acknowledge they are ordaining Matthias to JUDAS’ ministry who will now be “enrolled” WITH the remaining Apostles.
.
ACTS 1:16b-18, 20, 24-25 16 Judas who was guide to those who arrested Jesus. 17
For he was numbered among us, and was allotted his share in THIS ministry. 18 (Now this man bought a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out. . . .
. . . 20 ‘His (Judas’) office (Greek = “EPISCOPEN” or contextually Judas’ Bishoprick or “bishop’s OFFICE” or Judas’ “EPISCOPAL office”) let another take.’ . . .
. . . 24 And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen 25 to take the place in THIS MINISTRY AND apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.” 26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthi′as; and he was enrolled with the eleven apostles.
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.

And this leads me to yet another question.

WHY would Jesus ordain Judas as a priest but NOT a bishop?
 
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No, there wouldn’t have been any such prophesies had Judas not through with it.
 
tafan2 said:
Yes you do. We know when the apostles were made priests, the Council of Trent tells us. That was at the institution of the Eucharist. We do not know if Judas was still present, but I Grant you it might have been.
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He was. It is clear from the overlap of the different Gospel narratives and from clear statements to that effect.
  1. Luke 22:14-20 — Jesus institutes the Eucharist
    Luke 22:21 — But see, the one who betrays me is with me, and his hand is on the table.
    This definitively implies Judas is present after the Institution.
  2. John 13:2-3 — Jesus gets up from the table “during supper” to wash the disciples’ feet.
    This cannot be before the Institution because it is while they were eating, after the Institution.
    This is corroborated by Luke who notes that a dispute arose among them about who was the greatest – that would be the segue into the washing of the feet
    John 13:9 — Jesus says, “Very truly, I tell you, servants are not greater than their master…” That statement indicates the washing of the feet was in response to the dispute of the Apostles as to who was the greatest.
  3. After the washing of the feet, Jesus makes the statement, "I know whom I have chosen. But it is to fulfill the scripture, ‘The one who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ (John 13:18)
  4. Later (John 13:21) Jesus says, “Very truly, I tell you, one of you will betray me.”
    Peter shortly thereafter asks, "“Lord, who is it?” Jesus answers, “It is the one to whom I give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish.” So when he had dipped the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas son of Simon Iscariot. After he received the piece of bread, Satan entered into him. Jesus said to him, “Do quickly what you are going to do.”
The supper lasted some time, with various parts of the narrative referring to eating bread, interspersed with the washing of the feet, but clearly Judas was present for the Institution and the meal because he left after both.

Matthew’s account (26:11-30) and Mark’s (14:12-25) are very similar to each other and appear to put a wrench into the above sequence, but they can be reconciled without jeopardizing the sequence from John and Luke. It appears that the Institution (in both Mark and Matthew) occurs after they had started eating.
Ergo, both of these accounts can be fitted quite neatly before 1) above, with the Judas incident reported in Mark and Matthew being different from 4). Jesus doesn’t give Judas the bread in Mark and Matthew, he merely identifies the betrayer as “… one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the bowl with me." And Jesus doesn’t specifically identify the betrayer to Peter (as in John), but to the whole group. Perhaps, the Apostles were unsuccessful identifying which of them would betray Jesus, so Peter later came right out and asked Jesus who it was. (John 13:22ff)
 
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