Was Judas Iscariot a Bishop?

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But didn’t Christ establish His Church at the Last Supper? When He established the Eucharist. So if the Church was created then and there, then the activity of the Apostles before the Last Supper is not really that of bishops is it? Because before the Last Supper there was no New Law and no Christian Church, so the Apostles had no position before the Eucharist.
 
Mary888 said:
But didn’t Christ establish His Church at the Last Supper?
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Yes… and no.

Still, there is nothing in the Last Supper narratives that says that Judas received the Eucharist, no? And therefore, if at the time of the reception of the Eucharist (and, more to the point you’re raising, the command at the words of institution to “do this in memory of me”), Judas was not present, then we can’t make the claim that he was a “proto-bishop”.

An apostle? Sure. A bishop? Not so much.
 
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I agree with that, but am not for sure the Last Supper represents the beginning of the Church. I think Pentecost is called the birthday of the Church. Also, the passage in John 20 where Jesus breathed on the Apostles seems relevant. But so does the Last Supper. Perhaps the beginning of the Church was not a moment in time, but a series of events spread over that 40-some day period. Regardless, I certainly hold to the view Judas was not a Bishop.
 
Mary888 said:
But here you seem to agree with me that before the Last Supper there was no Church yet.
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Yes. Is that a problem? 🤔
tafan2 said:
Perhaps the beginning of the Church was not a moment in time, but a series of events spread over that 40-some day period.
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In a sense, that’s how it’s viewed. Pentecost is the day on which, at the appearance of the Holy Spirit, the Church fully came into being. However, there are some elements of the initiation of the Church in the events you mention.
 
tafan2 said:
Supper represents the beginning of the Church. I think Pentecost is called the birthday of the Church.
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Yes it is theology of the Church that the birth of the Church is Pentecost. So Judas was not a bishop then according to the Church and we must profess the same beliefs as Holy Mother Church.
 
Gorgias said:
Still, there is nothing in the Last Supper narratives that says that Judas received the Eucharist, no?
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Pure speculative and non-applicable at any rate… …

Judas was dead before he ever had the opportunity to become a bishop…

So… No…

There’s nothing whatsoever in the Gospel which would even suggest that Judas did not eat with all …

Judas Agrees to Betray Jesus​

14 Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests 15 and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver him over to you?” So they counted out for him thirty pieces of silver. 16 From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.

The Last Supper​

17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?”

18 He replied, “Go into the city to a certain man and tell him, ‘The Teacher says: My appointed time is near. I am going to celebrate the Passover with my disciples at your house.’” 19 So the disciples did as Jesus had directed them and prepared the Passover.

20 When evening came, Jesus was reclining at the table with the Twelve. 21 And while they were eating, he said, “Truly I tell you, one of you will betray me.”

22 They were very sad and began to say to him one after the other, “Surely you don’t mean me, Lord?”

23 Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, “Surely you don’t mean me, Rabbi?”

Jesus answered, “You have said so.”

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

30 When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
 
On the contrary, Luke indicates that Christ gave the Eucharistic blessing/prayer and then spoke of Judas being present (Luke 22:21).

Judas had already betrayed Christ before the Passover meal; and the “apostles departed”; then after the Agony in the Garden, Judas comes forward leading the cohort.

I will let theologians parse when priesthood occurred; I have heard both at the Last Supper and in the Upper Room after the Resurrection. There does not appear to be any specific point where the office of bishop was created that I am aware of. If it goes back to ordination, then it is either at the Last Supper (at which Judas was present, and which none of the Synoptics mention him leaving other than with the whole group), or in the Upper Room, when Judas was already dead.

Certainly it could be argued that the apostles became bishops upon ordination; or it could be argued that it occurred some time after Pentecost, when the actual organization of the Church began, and they recognized a need for helpers (deacons) and helpers (priests). Considering that the Apostles ordained a number of presbyters, it might be debatable as to when some of those ordained were considered directly in line of authority (bishops) as opposed to only presbyters.
 
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Well, maybe yes and maybe no. I have heard two differing opinions as to when the apostles became priests: at the Last Supper, and after the Resurrection… If it was at the Last Supper, then he might possibly be considered a bishop; there was not a clear point until well after Pentacost - and possibly years after - where the office of bishop was specifically set out, per when men the Apostles had already ordained were appointed to succeed the apostles in authority.
 
In the New Testament - “bishops” are not noted until AFTER Pentecost…

Judas I was an Apostle … a Traitor…
who failed Big Time as a pawn of the Sanhedrin regard the Crucifixion
and who committed suicide even before the Crucifixion… .
 
dochawk . . .
If “bishopness” starts from Pentecost, then Judas would not be a bishop, while his successor brought in afterwards would.
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@EndTimes . . . .
Judas was dead before he ever had the opportunity to become a bishop…
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@tafan2 . . .
I certainly hold to the view Judas was not a Bishop.
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I think Pentecost is called the birthday of the Church.
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(But life begins prior to birth. )

.

Yet Judas was described in Acts 1:20 as holding an episcopoi (“episcopen”) that had to nave been conferred upon him when he was alive.

He was an episcopal office holder. He was a bishop.
 
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Cathoholic said:
Yet Judas was described in Acts 1:20 as holding an episcopoi (“episcopen”) when he was alive.

He was an episcopal office holder. He was a bishop.
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Naw… That event … Acts 1: 15 - 26
clearly refers to the appointing of an Apostle to replace Judas I who committed suicide
 
Cathoholic . . .
Yet Judas was described in Acts 1:20 as holding an episcopoi (“episcopen”) when he was alive.

He was an episcopal office holder. He was a bishop.
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.

EndTimes . . .
Naw… That event … Acts 1: 15 - 26
clearly refers to the appointing of an Apostle to replace Judas I who committed suicide
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.

Cathoholic earlier (the context of Acts 1:20 is a
discussion the Apostles are having about Judas) . . .
ACTS 1:20 (DRV) 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take.

Here is the RSVCE using the word “office” (the Greek word is episcopoi [episcopen] as in “episcopal office” which merely means “bishops office”).

ACTS 1:20 (RSVCE) 20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘Let his habitation become desolate, and let there be no one to live in it’; and ‘His office let another take.’
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.

Then I think you need to explain yourself instead of merely re-stating a tautology.
 
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And I know one must…
Read in fuller Context that entire section…! ACTS 1: 15 -26

Especially that which I’ve BOLDED at the end. !

It’s APOSTLESHIP.. !

15 In those days Peter stood up among the believers (a gathering of about 120 people) and said, 16 “Brothers, the scripture had to be fulfilled that the Holy Spirit foretold through David concerning Judas—who became the guide for those who arrested Jesus— 17 for he was counted as one of us and received a share in this ministry.” 18 (Now this man Judas acquired a field with the reward of his unjust deed, and falling headfirst he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out. 19 This became known to all who lived in Jerusalem, so that in their own language they called that field Hakeldama , that is, “Field of Blood.”) 20 “For it is written in the book of Psalms, ‘ Let his house become deserted, and let there be no one to live in it ,’ and ‘ Let another take his position of responsibility .’ 21 Thus one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time the Lord Jesus associated with us, 22 beginning from his baptism by John until the day he was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness of his resurrection together with us.” 23 So they proposed two candidates: Joseph called Barsabbas (also called Justus) and Matthias.

24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know the hearts of all. Show us which one of these two you have chosen 25 to assume the task of this service and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” 26 Then they cast lots for them, and the one chosen was Matthias; so he was counted with the eleven apostles.
 
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Why do you think apostles cannot be bishops also EndTimes?

Jesus is the High Priest.
Do you think Jesus was a bishop in addition?
. . . position of responsibility. . .
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Do you think Judas’ “position of responsibility” that you highlighted, had anything whatsoever to do with an episcopal “position”?
 
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A Bishop is an office of the Church, until the Church existed, there were no bishops. Of course Apostles could be bishops,but there was a timing involved.
 
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tafan2 . . .
A Bishop is an office of the Church, until the Church existed, there were no bishops. Of course Apostles could be bishops,but there was a timing involved.
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OK.

WHEN did the Apostles become Bishops in your estimation?
 
I had always assumed it was after the resurrection, John 20:21-23, when Jesus said he was sending them, he breathed in them, and gave them the power to forgive sins. Judas was certainly not present.
 
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