Was Judas predestend to go to hell?

[cynic]

i’m not questioning why he should be in hell for his prior actions, but rather why suicide in his situation would be the thing to send him to hell. It all sounds like so much legalism, and besides he could not have turned his life around : his suicide was prophecy.

I can think of a lot worse things to do in his situation than kill himself. If a murderer kills himself out of guilt for his actions, then at least he feels guilt. Thus, whether in hell or not, Judas was not as bad as he could have been. So I don’t understand the “son of perdition” stuff , surely that would mean being the absolute lowest of the low, with no redeeming qualities and no awareness of ones own sins, at all.

 

[doomhammer]

seagal:

You are assuming that Judas is, in fact, in hell. There is no way we can know that for sure in this life.

That Judas is in hell is not only necessary but a coherent and logical conclusion from Scriptures, natural law and common sense.
Just to indicate some few quotes: “It would have been better for him if he would never have been born”(Mt. 26:24); “son of perdition” (Jn. 17:12); Psalm 109; Acts 1:20.
Furthermore: “But someone said to him, ‘Lord, are only a few to be saved?’ But he said to them, 'Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able”’ (Lk. 13:23-24).
The most authoritative theologians also taught that Judas is in hell: St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc. etc. etc.
Arguments as “There is no affirmative statement from the Church with regards to Judas Iscariot’s fate” (Post # 9) are quite confusing. Is it necessary a dogma to realize that Judas is in hell? What is an “affirmative statement”? As Catholics we have a lot of believes that are not dogmas. We do not need a dogma to know that Judas is in hell.
“Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep instead for yourselves and for your children, for if these things are done when the wood is green what will happen when it is dry?" Luke 23, 28 and 31
Regarding predestination: The council of Quiersy taught: “Almighty God wills all men without exception, to be saved, even though not all are saved. The fact that some are saved is the gift of Him who saves: the fact that some are lost, is the merit of those who are lost.” The council of Valence taught: “…[the council] holds, in regard to divine predestination … that in election, the mercy of God precedes good merits [on the part of men]: but that in the damnation of those who are lost, evil merits precede the just judgment of God.”

 

[doomhammer]

richbansha:

If I were a betting man, I would bet on seeing Judas in Heaven.

would you bet your own salvation?
first read St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc. etc. etc. who taught that Judas is in hell.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Montie Claunch:

It sounds like Judas was predested to go to hell, but that goes against Church teaching (I think). Could someone help me with reconciling the two? Thanks and God bless.

The Catholic understanding of predestination is …

… faithfully we confess the predestination of the elect to life, and the predestination of the impious to death; in the election, moreover, of those who are to be saved,** the mercy of God precedes the merited good.** In the condemnation, however, of those who are to be lost, the evil which they have deserved precedes the just judgment of God. In predestination, however, (we believe) that God has determined only those things which He Himself either in His gratuitous mercy or in His just judgment would do… in regard to evil men, however, we believe that God foreknew their malice, because it is from them,** but that He did not predestine it**, because it is not from Him. (We believe) that God, who sees all things, foreknew and predestined that their evil deserved the punishment which followed, because He is just, in whom as Saint Augustine says, there is concerning all things everywhere so fixed a decree as a certain predestination. " (Council of Valence III, AD 855, Denzinger 322)

I don’t believe the account of Judas in Scritpure is contrary to the above understanding of Catholic predestination.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

doomhammer:

would you bet your own salvation?
first read St. Augustine, St. Ambrose, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc. etc. etc. who taught that Judas is in hell.

You imply that it is de fide dogma that Judas in in hell, which is not the case. One can freely opine that Judas is not in hell. There’s been no official Church decision one way or another.

Saint Teresa Benedicta of the Cross, for example, finds it possible to hope that God’s omnipotent love finds ways of outwitting human resistance.

 

[doomhammer]

itsjustdave1988:

One can freely opine that Judas is not in hell.

Precisely, that is what I’m saying: “Is it necessary a dogma to realize that Judas is in hell? As Catholics we have a lot of believes that are not dogmas. We do not need a dogma to know that Judas is in hell”. (As you know there are many levels and categories of theological truth).
Regarding “One can freely opine that Judas is not in hell”, when that “opinion” contradicts Scriptures, the teachings of the greatest theologians, and common sense, rather than an “opinion” we are in front of a complete baseless sentiment.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

doomhammer:

Precisely, that is what I’m saying: “Is it necessary a dogma to realize that Judas is in hell? As Catholics we have a lot of believes that are not dogmas. We do not need a dogma to know that Judas is in hell”. (As you know there are many levels and categories of theological truth).
Regarding “One can freely opine that Judas is not in hell”, when that “opinion” contradicts Scriptures, the teachings of the greatest theologians, and common sense, rather than an “opinion” we are in front of a complete baseless sentiment.

But it is a theological opinion that it contradicts Scripture. I guess what I’m saying is that it is neither de fide (infallible) dogma nor *sententia certa *(certain teaching), but instead is sententia communis (common teaching), which is in the field of free opinion. If this is not the case, then I’d like to see the Acta Apostolicae Sedis which shows this to be sententia certa.

For example, before Peter Lombard’s dissenting opinion on limbo of the children, St. Augustine’s view of limbo was common teaching, and included the proposition that the punishment was poena damni and poena sensus. It wasn’t a “blissful existence” as St. Thomas opined. Theological speculation is allowed, even when ancient theologians have differing opinions. Catholics are bound by religious submission to sententia certa, not sententia communis.

John XXIII: “In essentials unity, in doubtful matters liberty, in all things charity.”

According to John Paul II:

Eternal damnation remains a possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. (General Audience, July 28, 1999)

Thus, it would appear that the pope did not understand it to be a binding teaching that Judas in is hell…

 

[doomhammer]

itsjustdave1988:

But it is a theological opinion that it contradicts Scripture. I guess what I’m saying is that it is neither de fide (infallible) dogma nor *sententia certa *(certain teaching), but instead is sententia communis (common teaching), which is in the field of free opinion. If this is not the case, then I’d like to see the Acta Apostolicae Sedis which shows this to be sententia certa.
For example, before Peter Lombard’s dissenting opinion on limbo of the children, St. Augustine’s view of limbo was common teaching, and included the proposition that the punishment was poena damni and poena sensus. It wasn’t a “blissful existence” as St. Thomas opined. Theological speculation is allowed, even when ancient theologians have differing opinions. Catholics are bound by religious submission to sententia certa, not sententia communis.
John XXIII: “In essentials unity, in doubtful matters liberty, in all things charity.”
According to John Paul II:
Thus, it would appear that the pope did not understand it to be a binding teaching that Judas in is hell…

I basically agree with you. One two points here:
Eternal damnation is a certainty: “But someone said to him, ‘Lord, are only a few to be saved?’ But he said to them, 'Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able”’ (Lk. 13:23-24).
Regarding Judas roasting in hell I cited: “It would have been better for him if he would never have been born”(Mt. 26:24); “son of perdition” (Jn. 17:12); Psalm 109; Acts 1:20.
Please, show me where in the Scripture says that Judas is in heaven reigning with Christ.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

BryPGuy89:

In Christianity it is an unforgivable sin. Thus he is dead and can’t repent, thus no forgiveness can’t be attained on earth.

Bry…this is terribly flawed understanding of Catholic doctrine. Suicide is indeed a grave sin, but to be a mortal sin, full advertence and perfect consent of will are necessary. Only God knows the subjetive state of one’s soul at death. You imply that every suicide victim is absolutely bound for hell, which is incorrect.

A grave sin which lacks full advertence and/or perfect consent is a venial sin.

According to St. Thomas Aquinas,

… a sin which is generically mortal, can become venial by reason of the imperfection of the act, because then it does not completely fulfil the conditions of a moral act…This happens by a kind of subtraction, namely, of deliberate reason. And since a moral act takes its species from deliberate reason, the result is that by such a subtraction the species of the act is destroyed. (ST IIa, 88, 6)

 

[itsjustdave1988]

doomhammer:

I basically agree with you. One two points here:
Eternal damnation is a certainty: “But someone said to him, ‘Lord, are only a few to be saved?’ But he said to them, 'Strive to enter by the narrow gate; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able”’ (Lk. 13:23-24).
Regarding Judas roasting in hell I cited: “It would have been better for him if he would never have been born”(Mt. 26:24); “son of perdition” (Jn. 17:12); Psalm 109; Acts 1:20.
Please, show me where in the Scripture says that Judas is in heaven reigning with Christ.

Some Catholic theologians assert that St. Luke may be admonitive, not predictive.

To be clear, I personally believe Judas is in hell because of the passages in Sacred Scripture and the writings of the early Church fathers. It is a weakly founded thesis to insist otherwise. However, I disagree that this is sententia certa. Thus, those like Fr. Hans Urs von Balthasar (cf. Dare We Hope “That All Men Be Saved?”) who, in agreement with St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross assert that we can hope that all mankind can be saved, is still a thesis within the boundaries of Catholic doctrine, although clearly contrary to common teaching of the Church.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

cynic:

i’m not questioning why he should be in hell for his prior actions, but rather why suicide in his situation would be the thing to send him to hell.

Because the Lord of Life says, through his Holy Catholic Church, that suicide is a grave sin. If anyone, even if he lived the life of a saint until the very end, committed suicide, they commit a grave sin. If they do so with full advertence and perfect consent of will, and they remain impenitent until death of that one sin, they will spend eternity in hell. It only takes one unrepentent sin to send you to hell. You may not agree with the Catholic Church on this, but that’s another issue.

 

[cynic]

itsjustdave1988:

Because the Lord of Life says, through his Holy Catholic Church, that suicide is a grave sin. If anyone, even if he lived the life of a saint until the very end, committed suicide, they commit a grave sin. If they do so with full advertence and perfect consent of will, and they remain impenitent until death of that one sin, they will spend eternity in hell. It only takes one unrepentent sin to send you to hell. You may not agree with the Catholic Church on this, but that’s another issue.

fine, but Judas was not as bad as he could have possibly have been, otherwise he would have felt no guilt at all and thus would have had no motivation no reason to kill himself. Thus his suicide was the result of the ‘better’ side of him. You may feel that that is irrelevant. If he was truly the “son of perdition” then he couldn’t have cared less about betraying Christ.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

cynic:

fine, but Judas was not as bad as he could have possibly have been, otherwise he would have felt no guilt at all and thus would have had no motivation no reason to kill himself. Thus his suicide was the result of the ‘better’ side of him. You may feel that that is irrelevant. If he was truly the “son of perdition” then he couldn’t have cared less about betraying Christ.

Despair is a sin against the theological virtue of hope.

 

[cynic]

itsjustdave1988:

Despair is a sin against the theological virtue of hope.

perhaps Judas didn’t feel that he deserved hope.

 

[cynic]

…forgetting Judas, if someone would go as far to kill themselves from self hatred over a particular sin, then couldn’t that be a form of repentence? say you killed somebody in a car accident and couldn’t live with it. If God knows somebodies heart, then why does he care whether that person was “theologically informed” enough to expect or ask for forgiveness. It just sounds a bit arbitrary “you die without specifically asking for forgiveness for this sin, you go to hell” And what if you forget a sin, cause there’s likely to be many of them, and end up dying?

 

[thistle]

cynic:

…forgetting Judas, if someone would go as far to kill themselves from self hatred over a particular sin, then couldn’t that be a form of repentence? say you killed somebody in a car accident and couldn’t live with it. If God knows somebodies heart, then why does he care whether that person was “theologically informed” enough to expect or ask for forgiveness. It just sounds a bit arbitrary “you die without specifically asking for forgiveness for this sin, you go to hell” And what if you forget a sin, cause there’s likely to be many of them, and end up dying?

Suicide

CCC 2280 Everyone is responsible for his life before God who has given it to him. It is God who remains the sovereign Master of life. We are obliged to accept life gratefully and preserve it for his honor and the salvation of our souls. We are stewards, not owners, of the life God has entrusted to us. It is not ours to dispose of.

CCC 2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.

CCC 2282 If suicide is committed with the intention of setting an example, especially to the young, it also takes on the gravity of scandal. Voluntary co-operation in suicide is contrary to the moral law.

Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide.

CCC 2283 We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

As for forgotten sins, when you go to Confession and are given absolution you are forgiven for the sins you have confessed and for the sins forgotten.

 

[BryPGuy89]

cynic:

i’m not questioning why he should be in hell for his prior actions, but rather why suicide in his situation would be the thing to send him to hell. It all sounds like so much legalism, and besides he could not have turned his life around : his suicide was prophecy.

I can think of a lot worse things to do in his situation than kill himself. If a murderer kills himself out of guilt for his actions, then at least he feels guilt. Thus, whether in hell or not, Judas was not as bad as he could have been. So I don’t understand the “son of perdition” stuff , surely that would mean being the absolute lowest of the low, with no redeeming qualities and no awareness of ones own sins, at all.

Suicide is a way out, to get rid of guilt. To take the easy way out is in no way showing guilt, but fear of guilt, just to escape it.

 

[BryPGuy89]

itsjustdave1988:

Bry…this is terribly flawed understanding of Catholic doctrine. Suicide is indeed a grave sin, but to be a mortal sin, full advertence and perfect consent of will are necessary. Only God knows the subjetive state of one’s soul at death. You imply that every suicide victim is absolutely bound for hell, which is incorrect.

A grave sin which lacks full advertence and/or perfect consent is a venial sin.

According to St. Thomas Aquinas,

Ok, I’m aware that there are extreme cases, in which it isn’t a fully willed. I do refuse to except the new common secular teaching that people temporarily loose control under stress and “rage”. There has to be and always been a mental or emotional difect of some kind, for there to be a suicide without full consent or will.

 

[BryPGuy89]

cynic:

fine, but Judas was not as bad as he could have possibly have been, otherwise he would have felt no guilt at all and thus would have had no motivation no reason to kill himself. Thus his suicide was the result of the ‘better’ side of him. You may feel that that is irrelevant. If he was truly the “son of perdition” then he couldn’t have cared less about betraying Christ.

What, to take an easy way out of sin and guilt, is good? To end your own life rather then take the responsibility of one’s actions.

 

[imroc]

I haven’t read any replies, so forgive me for repitition if it comes about.

I say, “Did Judas not have ample opportunity to repent?”
I say, “Did Peter not repent for his 3 fold denial of Christ?”

Predestination is garbage and implies that we are slaves of God with absolutely no free will. Sounds rather, Islamic…huh?