Was Judas sent to Hell or was he forgiven?

[Crusader13]

Well, there are obviously a variety of opinions on the matter. I think that the opinions have an underlying emotion, an underlying experience that forms the basis of the opinion.

One of the underlying bases for the opinion is whether or not one understands Judas’ position, whether or not one can relate to what he did. That was the reason for the question, “Can you empathize with what he did?”

So, can you

I think it’s only natural for any one of us to look at an individual in the bible and say, “I can relate to their sin, or their choices or their character…” I don’t necessarily see how this helps to prove that Judas may be in Heaven. Just because we feel sorry for Judas or can image ourselves betraying Jesus, like many of us probably feel we do every time we sin, that doesn’t mean that our empathy is reason enough to believe he is saved.

Scripture seems to be pretty clear on Judas’ state after his betrayal. Why else would it be better for him not to have been born, if he were saved? After an individual is born, they will inevitably at some point in their life suffer death. There are only two places they could potentially go, heaven or hell. To suffer eternity in hell seems like the only logical reason for someone to claim that it would be better never to have been born.

 

[OneSheep]

I think it’s only natural for any one of us to look at an individual in the bible and say, “I can relate to their sin, or their choices or their character…”

Wow! What you are calling “natural” is a way-overestimate! Perhaps you are “selling yourself short” in this humility. If you can relate to Judas, really put yourself in his shoes and see how you can do what he did, that is a big thing! To me is shows a dedication to prayer that leads to self awareness. I congratulate you.

What I observe as “natural” is that when one can relate to the protagonist in a story (in this case, Jesus) one naturally resents the antagonist (i.e. Judas) and what it triggered within is the compulsion to punish the antagonist, to want him to “get what he deserves” so to speak.

Keeping that aside, though, given that you can relate to Judas (which, again, is amazing), if you were to do what he did, could you understand your own actions in light of “they know not what they do”? If you were to do what he did, would you really know what you were doing?

Why else would it be better for him not to have been born…

Have you ever been in such a state of despair that you wish you had never been born? I think that the scripture is reflecting what it is like to be in such a state of despair, as Judas was.

Like I said, this is one of the bases for the opinion one way or another. There are also other bases.

 

[Crusader13]

What I observe as “natural” is that when one can relate to the protagonist in a story (in this case, Jesus) one naturally resents the antagonist (i.e. Judas) and what it triggered within is the compulsion to punish the antagonist, to want him to “get what he deserves” so to speak.

I must admit I’m at loss as to what point you’re trying to make. Again, I don’t see how merely relating to a person in the bible, somehow correlates to wanting to see him “get what he deserves”. I’m only reading what was written about Judas after his betrayal. I don’t have a sense of justification or righteous indignation by claiming “Judas is in hell, where he belongs.” I’m just expressing my understanding of what Scripture says about Judas.

Have you ever been in such a state of despair that you wish you had never been born? I think that the scripture is reflecting what it is like to be in such a state of despair, as Judas was.

Like I said, this is one of the bases for the opinion one way or another. There are also other bases.

There is truth to that, which is why we are told in Scripture, not to despair. In fact Romans 8:18 says “For I reckon that the sufferings of this time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come, that shall be revealed in us”.

Judas let his despair overwhelm him and as a result believed that he was beyond saving and failed to trust in the mercy of Jesus, as God.

Peter speaks about the lot of Judas in Acts 16-20, and the Psalm in reference to Judas is Psalm 108 (109): 6-8. "Set thou the sinner over him: and may the devil stand at his right hand. When he is judged, may he go out condemned; and may his prayer be turned to sin. May his days be few: and his bishopric let another take."

Acts 1:25 "To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place."

 

[OneSheep]

I must admit I’m at loss as to what point you’re trying to make. Again, I don’t see how merely relating to a person in the bible, somehow correlates to wanting to see him “get what he deserves”.

I think you may have misread my post. The ordinary reader relates to Jesus, but does not relate to the antagonist, Judas. The reader naturally wants Judas to “get what he deserves”, that is, to be punished in some way. This is a very natural, conscience-related response.

Your ability to relate to Judas, to see him as beloved and to empathize with his actions, is extraordinary, it involves some introspection, leading to an acceptance.

Is it not your experience to want punishment when watching, say, The Wizard of Oz or Harry Potter, or any other movie with a Protagonist/antagonist dynamic?

Judas let his despair overwhelm him and as a result believed that he was beyond saving and failed to trust in the mercy of Jesus, as God.

Another example: can you empathize (this does not mean “feel sorry for”) with “letting despair overwhelm” you? Have you had overwhelming despair? If so, did you know what you were doing? Did you actually want to be overwhelmed?

Psalm 108 (109): 6-8. "Set thou the sinner over him: and may the devil stand at his right hand. When he is judged, may he go out condemned; and may his prayer be turned to sin. May his days be few: and his bishopric let another take."

This is exactly the “natural response” to sin (i.e. Judas’ sin) I was referring to above. When we witness someone doing evil, our conscience says that the person deserves some form of punishment. Can you relate to this?

 

[vz71]

I would like to think Judas may have been redeemed.

It gives hope that I can as well.

 

[Crusader13]

I understand better what you’re trying to say now. Yet, it seems like you’re also implying that because of our tendency to see the “bad guy” get his. Those who believe Judas is in hell are doing so, not because scripture says Judas is in hell, but because that’s what we read into it.

So I guess the next question is, how do you interpret the above verses I quoted. If scripture had said or even hinted that Judas was redeemed and in heaven, I don’t think there would be a large outcry wondering why he’s not in hell.

However, there are no such verses, either explicit or implicit that would suggest otherwise. And I don’t believe that saying, Judas may have repented during the last moments of his life and through some perfect act of contrition is now in heaven, is a proper understanding of the verses I quoted above.

 

[OneSheep]

I understand better what you’re trying to say now. Yet, it seems like you’re also implying that because of our tendency to see the “bad guy” get his. Those who believe Judas is in hell are doing so, not because scripture says Judas is in hell, but because that’s what we read into it.

Well, scripture does not explicitly say he is there, so people lean toward the interpretation that “makes the most sense” to them. If a person is wanting “the bad guy to get his”, then it is likely that the person would lean toward an interpretation that he is there.

I am not saying it is the only reason why a person would lean toward that conclusion. If a person is coming from a “God never forgives the unrepentant” theology, then having that image of God would also create a leaning toward a Judas-in-hell opinion.

So I guess the next question is, how do you interpret the above verses I quoted. If scripture had said or even hinted that Judas was redeemed and in heaven, I don’t think there would be a large outcry wondering why he’s not in hell.

Hmm. Well, you put a lot of verses. Which one would you like to start with?

Indeed, there would be people who want the antagonist in hell, so there would be some push-back against any implication that he is not. It is very natural to want the antagonist to “get his”; do you recognize this desire in yourself? I most certainly recognize it in myself.

 

[Xpi22]

We are not privy to God’s judgement on Judas. Scripture paints a dark picture for us concerning Judas. Pope Saint John Paul II explicitly stated that it is not known or to be presumed that Judas is reprobated, in Hell.

 

[OneSheep]

Very interesting! Do you have reference for that?

 

[Crusader13]

Again it seems like your position is one of personal preference regarding those who chose to believe that Judas is in hell. Meaning, that they believe Judas is in hell merely because that’s what they feel he deserves.

My views regarding Judas aren’t based upon the notion that I feel he did wrong and therefore he got what he deserved. I don’t know if that’s even a fair point to make because then you reduce what scripture says to simply a matter of personal bias because Judas was the “betrayer”.

When we go back to the verse I mentioned above, Mark 14:21. These are Jesus’s own words regarding Judas. Clearly scripture teaches that trials and tribulations will come our way, things which are almost certain to cause one to “despair and lose hope”. Yet, as we read in John 14, Jesus is telling his disciples to “Let not your heart be troubled. You believe in God, believe also in me.” This wouldn’t make sense for Jesus to say it would be better for someone to have never been born simply to avoid suffering in this life, which we are told to overcome. He goes on to tell them that he is going to prepare a place for them.

This is important because as we read in Act 1:25 “To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place.”

Judas is shown to clearly have gone to his own place. Not to a place prepared for him by Jesus.

 

[vz71]

Judas is shown to clearly have gone to his own place. Not to a place prepared for him by Jesus.

Hell was prepared for the devil and the Angels that followed him.

Clearly not ‘his own place’.

It seems determination of the final fate of Judas requires reading into scripture something that is not there.

 

[elohimrules]

Its not so much a question about Judas but about who God is…I tend to believe His mercy is so great it leans towards outweighing his justice.

 

[Crusader13]

Crusader13:

Judas is shown to clearly have gone to his own place. Not to a place prepared for him by Jesus.

Hell was prepared for the devil and the Angels that followed him.

Clearly not ‘his own place’.

It seems determination of the final fate of Judas requires reading into scripture something that is not there.

Hell is not ONLY for the Devil and the Angels that followed him. Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.”

We also read in John 17:21 “While I was with them, I kept them in thy name, which thou hast given me; I have guarded them, and none of them is lost but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled“

Jesus calls Judas “the son of perdition” which is also translated “son of destruction” which is the same state where many will end up as we read in the above verse. Makes no logical sense for Jesus to refer to Judas with such harsh language, if he expects to see Judas again in heavenly glory!

So if his own place isn’t hell, then where is it? It doesn’t sound to me like the “son of perdition” will be given “his own place” in one of the many rooms prepared for by Christ in heaven.

 

[vz71]

40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

 

[chessnerd321]

I don’t know how Judas being in heaven can be squared with Jesus telling him “better for you had you not been born.”

St. Augustine, if I remember right, said that Judas’ greatest sin wasn’t betraying Jesus. St. Peter betrayed Jesus as well. But Judas didn’t have faith and he dispaired. He lost faith in Christ’s power to save. That’s his most horrible sin. Which is btw the most common interpretation of the “unforgivable sin” section of the Gospel: Rejection of God or his gift of salvation.

Had Judas stayed around a little longer, we would probably have a beautiful story of Jesus administering Confession personally to him. But alas, we do not. Thus I fear for Judas.

 

[Crusader13]

40 And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels.

OK, just so I don’t miss represent your position. From what you just quoted are you saying that only Satan and the angels who followed him will be in hell? No other human being will be suffering in hell either?

 

[vz71]

, just so I don’t miss represent your position. From what you just quoted are you saying that only Satan and the angels who followed him will be in hell? No other human being will be suffering in hell either?

No
What I am saying is that the conclusion that Judas is in because it is ‘his own place’ is erroneous.

 

[Crusader13]

No
What I am saying is that the conclusion that Judas is in because it is ‘his own place’ is erroneous.

If that’s your understanding of what the verse is saying, then yes I would also agree. However, ‘his own place’ isn’t referring to a separate place apart from hell. Hell wasn’t prepared specifically for Judas, as if he was to be the sole purpose for hell’s creation.

‘His own place’ is to show a clear distinction between the place that Jesus prepared for his disciples and Judas’ place in hell. Not to suggest that Judas has his very own personal hell where he will be the sole subject.

Otherwise, what do you believe the verse is suggesting? If his own place isn’t heaven and it isn’t hell, then what/where is it?

 

[OneSheep]

Good Morning!

Again it seems like your position is one of personal preference regarding those who chose to believe that Judas is in hell. Meaning, that they believe Judas is in hell merely because that’s what they feel he deserves.

You may have missed this:

I am not saying it is the only reason why a person would lean toward that conclusion. If a person is coming from a “God never forgives the unrepentant” theology, then having that image of God would also create a leaning toward a Judas-in-hell opinion.

And the above would only be one of the many other biases that would cause one to lean toward believing one way or the other.

Are you immune from bias? Not me!

My views regarding Judas aren’t based upon the notion that I feel he did wrong and therefore he got what he deserved. I don’t know if that’s even a fair point to make because then you reduce what scripture says to simply a matter of personal bias because Judas was the “betrayer”.

Is there something wrong with having a bias? I’m thinking that it is better to be aware of our biases and where they come from. For example, many of our biases are simply tribal, we believe a certain way because that is the “acceptable” way for an i.e. conservative or liberal to believe. And given that we come to belong to tribes in such random ways (birth, circumstance, etc.) it is quite freeing to simply look at all of our biases and see that each of us, individually, is something much more than our biases. It’s all okay.

Judas is shown to clearly have gone to his own place. Not to a place prepared for him by Jesus.

Well, many of us have a “special place”, our “own place”, reserved for us in purgatory, right? And aren’t places in purgatory also prepared by God?

Here is an interesting article addressing the verse (Matt 26:24) you brought forth:

http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=466194&Pg=&Pgnu=&recnu=

Did you have any other verses you want to address?

 

[vz71]

If ‘his own place’ does not refer to hell, nor does it refer to heaven, it would suggest purgatory.