Was Muhammad a Prophet of the Judeo-Christian God ?

[Micosil]

Thankyou dear Micosil.

The reason I posted what you quoted was because the evidence of Divinity and the persecution of Muhammad’s Apostles ( and even more so the Apostles of the Bab and Baha’u’llah ) is there for all to examine. They were all persecuted in the face of upholding what they knew to be true.

What comparable claims of Muhammad are you looking for? That His Apostles were willing to die for their belief in Him as a Prophet?

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For example; or also, academic books preferably written by non-Muslims that trace Muhammadan miracle creeds and statements of beliefs back to within a few years or even months after the alleged events.

 

[Servant19]

It can be historically shown that only at most within 3 years of Christ’s death, there already was a creed, a belief, floating around in Jerusalem that He had died, was buried, was raised on the third day, and then He appeared to the Apostles. This creed was from way before Paul wrote his epistles, and from way before any of the Gospels.

— The Oxford Companion to the Bible

— Michael Goulder, “The Baseless Fabric of a Vision,” in Gavin D’Costa, editor, Resurrection Reconsidered (Oxford: Oneworld, 1996), 48.

— Gerd Lüdemann, The Resurrection of Jesus, trans. by Bowden (Fortress, 1994), 171-72.

— Robert Funk, Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar, The Acts of Jesus, 466.

— James Dunn, Jesus Remembered (Eerdmans, 2003) 854-55.

— Michael Goulder, “The Baseless Fabric of a Vision,” in Gavin D’Costa, editor, Resurrection Reconsidered (Oxford: Oneworld, 1996), 48.

— N.T. Wright, Resurrection of the Son of God, 319.

— Craig Blomberg, The Historical Reliability of the Gospels, 148.

Servant19, the basic ideas of Easter were all there since the beginning. This Pauline creed was way too early to have been tampered with. If Paul, and the Gospel authors who also reaffirmed the Passion and Resurrection narrative, were false prophets, why did Paul go to his death at the hands of Nero, as affirmed by multiple sources such as Ignatius of Antioch, Dionysius of Corinth, Tertullian, Eusebius of Caesarea, Lactantius, Jerome, John Chrysostom, and Sulpicius Severus? Where are the hallmarks of a false prophet? How come Peter got himself crucified?

False prophets wouldn’t generally get themselves killed for something they knew to be a lie. If they were convinced by a hallucination, it wouldn’t be that many people in on it evangelizing in the face of Christ’s enemies and eventually getting martyred. If they were convinced by Satan, it seems hard to believe this manifestation of Satan told them to love their enemies, to forgive easily, and to uphold the Ten Commandments.

And since this is a thread about Muhammed, I ask you – where is this level of comparable historical evidence for Muhammad’s claims, like the ones I pasted above? Remember, many of my citations are from non-Christians and atheists.

Might I just add also.

Just because things can be dated back to the time very soon after the crucifixion, it is the non-independent source at that time that can be argued to put the whole thing into doubt.

Just because Paul wrote letters about this and that doesn’t mean that his teachings were Truth. It could easily be argued that Paul was a false prophet.

Did anyone witness his encounter with the light he called the risen Jesus?
How do we know that all of this was not a big lie concocted by Paul and later by Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

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[Servant19]

For example; or also, academic books preferably written by non-Muslims that trace Muhammadan miracle creeds and statements of beliefs back to within a few years or even months after the alleged events.

Who is the non-Christian that did such a thing for Jesus?
Who is the non-Christian that wrote books about Jesus’ miracle creeds?

Paul was a Christian…

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[Servant19]

I don’t deny freewill and God has certainty taken that into account. He knew Israel would constantly sin, he knew his Church would be composed of sinners. But what he does not do is abandon the community he has established. Do you dissagree that with the advent of Islam, which sets itself up against Christianity, that God has abandoned Christians? I don’t think you can disagree with that idea.

He hasn’t abandoned Christians Ignatius.

God isn’t interested in allegiances. God is interested in fruits of the spirit.

When Muhammad came, God challenged Christians to see if they were lovers of allegiance or lovers of the fruits of the spirit.

Those that were lovers of the fruits of the spirit saw the teachings of Muhammad as Divine and thus remained in right relationship with God, never to be abandoned, but yo be embraced.

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[Servant19]

Yes, we can see the kind of place the world would be when we look at the Middle East where the majority of the population has “embraced Muhammad.” I suppose it is the fault of the minority Christians there who choose not to be raped, beheaded or sold as slaves that the “Fruits of its existance [sic]” are so destructive and disconcerting.

Speaking of “barbaric parts of the world,” I would think that God’s gift to Muhammad should have born more fruits of peace over the last 1300 years that Muhammad has controlled that part of the world. Perhaps, he has has enough opportunity to show his stuff, rather than being permitted to export it to formerly peaceful places such as Belgium. I don’t see how you can possibly write what you do without severe pangs of conscience.

Please don’t look at the Middle East now when it is ruled by Islam in its fallen state.

There was a time when the Middle East was the golden region of the planet.

And Islam was the cause…so much so that Europe learnt from it.

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[Micosil]

Might I just add also.

Just because things can be dated back to the time very soon after the crucifixion, it is the non-independent source at that time that can be argued to put the whole thing into doubt.

Just because Paul wrote letters about this and that doesn’t mean that his teachings were Truth. It could easily be argued that Paul was a false prophet.

Did anyone witness his encounter with the light he called the risen Jesus?
How do we know that all of this was not a big lie concocted by Paul and later by Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

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How was Paul a false prophet if he was accepted as an equal among the twelve Apostles? They would have rejected him, like Simon the Magician was.

Again, people that concoct and make stuff up don’t willingly get martyred for something they know is a lie. They certainly did seem to believe what they talked about.

Who is the non-Christian that did such a thing for Jesus?
Who is the non-Christian that wrote books about Jesus’ miracle creeds?

Paul was a Christian…

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Paul only became a Christian after Jesus appeared to him. He was a Pharisee that was personally in charge of rounding up Christians before that.

 

[Servant19]

How was Paul a false prophet if he was accepted as an equal among the twelve Apostles? They would have rejected him, like Simon the Magician was.

Again, people that concoct and make stuff up don’t willingly get martyred for something they know is a lie. They certainly did seem to believe what they talked about.

Paul only became a Christian after Jesus appeared to him. He was a Pharisee that was personally in charge of rounding up Christians before that.

Yes but Paul wrote all his letters AFTER becoming a Christian.
There is no writings from him during his times as a Jew.

There are lots of witnesses to Muhammad’s creed AFTER they became Muslim.
We have to compare like with like Micosil.

There were many who died and were killed and tortured for their faith in Muhammad.
Just like the Apostles have their lives and were tortured, there were plenty of Muhammad’s Apostles who suffered the same fate.

You have to acknowledge the similarities when like is compared with like Micosil

You should see how many were killed and tortured more recently for their love and devotion to the Bab

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[Vico]

In see two important things within that declaration

That is it mentions “Dispensation” and then, “until he comes.”

Both would support the possibility of what we have previously mentioned being Fact.

Regards Tony

This refers to 1 Cor 11:26:
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

The Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharista of *Saint. Pope John Paul II *explains this well:
18. The acclamation of the assembly following the consecration appropriately ends by expressing the eschatological thrust which marks the celebration of the Eucharist (cf. 1 Cor 11:26): “until you come in glory”. The Eucharist is a straining towards the goal, a foretaste of the fullness of joy promised by Christ (cf. Jn 15:11); it is in some way the anticipation of heaven, the “pledge of future glory”.30 In the Eucharist, everything speaks of confident waiting “in joyful hope for the coming of our Saviour, Jesus Christ”.31 Those who feed on Christ in the Eucharist need not wait until the hereafter to receive eternal life: they already possess it on earth, as the first-fruits of a future fullness which will embrace man in his totality. For in the Eucharist we also receive the pledge of our bodily resurrection at the end of the world: “He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day” (Jn 6:54). This pledge of the future resurrection comes from the fact that the flesh of the Son of Man, given as food, is his body in its glorious state after the resurrection. With the Eucharist we digest, as it were, the “secret” of the resurrection. For this reason Saint Ignatius of Antioch rightly defined the Eucharistic Bread as “a medicine of immortality, an antidote to death”.32

vatican.va/holy_father/special_features/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_20030417_ecclesia_eucharistia_en.html

 

[RebeccaJ]

RebeccaJ I had signed off but I thought of a question to ask you and behold you has posted a reply applicable

We must all find God within with Laws. If we find self insteaf, then the unconstained can not shine through us.

Now an observation/question

Consider a Person finds a Faith in God. That Faith tells
Him there is but one God and teaches that He must live all the Virtues and give his entire self to service to all of Humanity.

Thus from this time that is what this person tried to do, gave up all in life an travelled to the most remote places to practice this Faith.

Prayers to God always answered, prayers shown in many confirmations of Faith,a Faith that tells Him that to Love Christ one must Love all the Prophets and all prayers offered are answered as God so chooses.

Tell me how this is wrong because ones belief has not taken on a certain set of dogma. Tell me how this is deception on a grand scale and not of God.

Tell me me also how a Muslim in the same position that also prays to the One God using the guidance of Muhammad and spends their life in service is not of God.

Now if a Christian doing the same thing is then to say but your works are all based on a false Prophet, what hope is there for humanity?

What hope is there of us finding our one God.

Regards Tony

Catholics hold no belief that God is absent from the lives of non-Christians. God calls all people, to Himself, unceasingly. Everyone, of all faiths, and no faith, belong to God. Our God is merciful, and loves unconditionally.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Might I just add also.

Just because things can be dated back to the time very soon after the crucifixion, it is the non-independent source at that time that can be argued to put the whole thing into doubt.

Just because Paul wrote letters about this and that doesn’t mean that his teachings were Truth. It could easily be argued that Paul was a false prophet.

Did anyone witness his encounter with the light he called the risen Jesus?
How do we know that all of this was not a big lie concocted by Paul and later by Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John?

.

This approach comes from the confusion that Catholics, and early Christians, are people of a Book.

 

[Techno2000]

This approach comes from the confusion that Catholics, and early Christians, are people of a Book.

 

[Servant19]

Catholics hold no belief that God is absent from the lives of non-Christians. God calls all people, to Himself, unceasingly. Everyone, of all faiths, and no faith, belong to God. Our God is merciful, and loves unconditionally.

Whilst that is indeed very true, it is important to revere the Source of that call towards Him. Without that Source, there is no call.

History has shown that without a Divine Source to call the people, polytheism, idolatry and moral destruction are the results.

Muhammad was indeed a Mighty Source, as great as Moses, in attribute and in deed.

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[Servant19]

This approach comes from the confusion that Catholics, and early Christians, are people of a Book.

No confusion at all.
Please consider that just as Jews ARE a People of a Book and Christians are a people of a Person, in like manner, Muslims are a People of a Book and Bahais are a People of a Person.



Please reflect, and consider what God has done!

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[RebeccaJ]

No confusion at all.
Please consider that just as Jews ARE a People of a Book and Christians are a people of a Person, in like manner, Muslims are a People of a Book and Bahais are a People of a Person.



Please reflect, and consider what God has done!

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I don’t know that it can be argued that Jews are people of a Book. Like Christians, their oral and liturgical Traditions existed before being written down and what is written down is understood in the context of Sacred Tradition.

Considering anyone as equal to Jesus isn’t going to fly with Christians. More like flying a red flag that indicates falsehood.

 

[Servant19]

I don’t know that it can be argued that Jews are people of a Book. Like Christians, their oral and liturgical Traditions existed before being written down and what is written down is understood in the context of Sacred Tradition.

Considering anyone as equal to Jesus isn’t going to fly with Christians. More like flying a red flag that indicates falsehood.

No one is saying equal to…IS Jesus, returned.

In the glory of the Father.

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[RebeccaJ]

**

No one is saying equal to…IS Jesus, returned.

In the glory of the Father.

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Red flag.

Jesus, as an emanation, is a Christological heresy that was refuted many centuries ago.

 

[Micosil]

No confusion at all.
Please consider that just as Jews ARE a People of a Book and Christians are a people of a Person, in like manner, Muslims are a People of a Book and Bahais are a People of a Person.



Please reflect, and consider what God has done!

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That isn’t correct. Judaism also has an Oral Torah, some of which is not written down, and is in fact referenced in the New Testament a few times. The oral tradition in Judaism is precisely what the Apostles, who were Jews themselves, were used to, and is part of why part of the Deposit of Faith is a Sacred Tradition, and not just Sacred Scripture (the Bible). It’s how they transmitted knowledge of divine things, revelation.

 

[Widlast]

Referring to Muhammad here, did any of those listed above change the course of history by bringing 1.6 billion potential pagans and polytheists towards a reverential monotheism?

Any of them above do anything like that?

Even Mirza Husayn Ali (Baha’u’llah) (6th on your list above) didn’t do that and I am a Baha’i !!

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One point you keep dancing around.
Muhammed did that by bringing the notion of “convert or die” into the mix.
Persia was almost completely Zoroastrian before Islam showed up. The Parsis had to escape to India to keep from being exterminated.
Islam has not spread through love or benevolent reasoning between peers, it has been spread by the sword.

 

[JimmyDFG]

Thankyou Jimmy.

How do you therefore conclude from this that public Revelation has ended for ever?

Was Jesus’ purpose to ends public Revelation or to be the Lamb that opens the doors of salvation for the first time for all mankind?

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You fail to realize to the truth in what Jesus meant or you continue to disregard the meaning.
Why would there be any further revelation to the sacrifice Jesus made. The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Amen

 

[JimmyDFG]

How do you know Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Paul were not false prophets?

The Jews tell me they concocted a really good and convincing lie…

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Did Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter or Paul ever proclaim to be prophets?