Was Muhammad a Prophet of the Judeo-Christian God ?

[steve_b]

Judaism doesn’t claim exclusivity over God, it claims to have a specific ‘contract’ with God. What arrangements God makes with others is entirely up to God.

In technical terms, what brings an end to a covenant?

 

[Techno2000]

Please share with us what “it is finished” means and put an end to this Baha’i stuff!

What is the meaning Jimmy?

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Its finished the Gates of Heaven are now open…WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT !!!

 

[Servant19]

What Jesus did through His perfect earthly existence, sacrificial death, and glorious resurrection fully completed the work the Father had given Him to do. Not only did He complete His salvific work but also His accomplishment is fully efficacious today and will be forevermore. There is nothing more to add–nothing more to be done by God, man, or religious institutions. The undeniable, factual, historic, and eternal work of Jesus Christ has been completed–is complete–and will forever remain completed. “IT . . . IS . . . FINISHED!”

Tetelestai is in the perfect tense in Greek. That’s significant because the perfect tense speaks of an action which has been completed in the past with results continuing into the present. It’s different from the past tense which looks back to an event and says, “This happened.” The perfect tense adds the idea that “This happened and it is still in effect today.”

When Jesus cried out “It is finished,” he meant “It was finished in the past, it is still finished in the present, and it will remain finished in the future.”

Note one other fact. He did not say, “I am finished,” for that would imply that he died defeated and exhausted. Rather, he cried out “It is finished,” meaning “I successfully completed the work I came to do.”
Tetelestai, then, is the Savior’s final cry of victory. When he died, he left no unfinished business behind. When he said, “It is finished,” he was speaking the truth.

Thankyou Jimmy.

How do you therefore conclude from this that public Revelation has ended for ever?

Was Jesus’ purpose to ends public Revelation or to be the Lamb that opens the doors of salvation for the first time for all mankind?

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[Servant19]

Its finished the Gates of Heaven are now open…WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT !!!

Doesn’t mean we all can just turn up and enter through the gates though Techno.

The gates are open but you bar yourself from entering by not doing the Will of the Father.

What is the Will of the Father today?

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[Techno2000]

What is the Will of the Father today?

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It is to not believe in False Prophets.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I find it interesting that the power of the Word is evident in the World before it is actually revealed. Stands to reason this is so. Judgement day would make this a logical observation.

In the time of Christ you can see how it works, so much expectation people telling that the event is about to happen.

This happened in Muhammad revelation and in the Bahai revelation.

I have no idea what you mean.

As far as I know no one was foretelling of Joseph Smith,.but it is obvious he had a great spiritual connection to what was about to happen. It appears that he could not come to terms of the source of His inspiration, or it could just be another thing we are given to help us make the right choices with our heart not our worldly knowledge.

Regards Tony

I am not familiar with Baha’i beliefs entirely, but it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that prophecies in the OT and possibly NT are applied to your prophet?

LDS do see prophecies for Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon and their belief of Restoration in both the OT and NT.

Mormon belief, all sects, is that prophets are central to their respective churches. All Mormon sects, not just LDS, claim that a prophet leads them today. Of course each sect has their own prophet. Why do Baha’i reject all the prophets of the Mormon sects? Not to mention we could add in the prophetess Ellen White of the SDA. Why reject her as well?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Than why do the bahai tell other religions they are in error?

I was wondering the same thing.

I don’t follow all the threads on the Baha’i, but the ones I have read it appeared to me the Baha’i posters were careful to not accuse any religion of being in error. They appeared religiously pluralistic to me. But this thread seems to have brought out a distinction of some sort.

 

[TonyBS]

I have no idea what you mean.

What I am saying is before the appearance of a Manifestation of God, quite a few years before the event there are signs and wonders leading up to it. The Birth of the New Word is already in the womb and the effects are being felt.

Before any Manifestation Elijah always comes first to prepare the way, signs in the heavens are also made visible.

Muhammad the Bab and Baha’ullah had these events and signs. Joseph Smith would not have had, I will say you will not find an Elijah preparing the way for Him.

I am not familiar with Baha’i beliefs entirely, but it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that prophecies in the OT and possibly NT are applied to your prophet?

LDS do see prophecies for Joseph Smith, the Book of Mormon and their belief of Restoration in both the OT and NT.

Mormon belief, all sects, is that prophets are central to their respective churches. All Mormon sects, not just LDS, claim that a prophet leads them today. Of course each sect has their own prophet. Why do Baha’i reject all the prophets of the Mormon sects? Not to mention we could add in the prophetess Ellen White of the SDA. Why reject her as well?

Yes you are correct in that assumption - For Muhammad there is mention in the Old and New Testament, this has been previously posted.

For the Bab and Baha’u’llah any Prophecy that mentions the end Times is full applicable unto them.

The other Prophets you have mentioned above do not fulfill Biblical prophecy of requirements that I have found to date.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

I was wondering the same thing.

I don’t follow all the threads on the Baha’i, but the ones I have read it appeared to me the Baha’i posters were careful to not accuse any religion of being in error. They appeared religiously pluralistic to me. But this thread seems to have brought out a distinction of some sort.

There is no error in Loving God and following His Manifestation. We support all that do.

We address posts that say that others do not. This post is obviously set up to say Muslims do not follow the God of the Christians.

Thus you will see obviously we will Support Muhammad is from the Same God of Judaisim and Christianity.

Regards Tony

 

[RebeccaJ]

What I am saying is before the appearance of a Manifestation of God, quite a few years before the event there are signs and wonders leading up to it. The Birth of the New Word is already in the womb and the effects are being felt.

Before any Manifestation Elijah always comes first to prepare the way, signs in the heavens are also made visible.

Muhammad the Bab and Baha’ullah had these events and signs. Joseph Smith would not have had, I will say you will not find an Elijah preparing the way for Him.

Mormons believe Elijah appeared to Joseph Smith. So yeah they don’t believe in a type of Elijah proclaiming their Restoration, they just go for the man himself, making the proclamation.

Yes you are correct in that assumption - For Muhammad there is mention in the Old and New Testament, this has been previously posted.

For the Bab and Baha’u’llah any Prophecy that mentions the end Times is full applicable unto them.

The other Prophets you have mentioned above do not fulfill Biblical prophecy of requirements that I have found to date.

Regards Tony

Right, Mormons say exactly the same thing. Just replace Joseph Smith as the person being prophesied about.

 

[RebeccaJ]

There is no error in Loving God and following His Manifestation. We support all that do.

We address posts that say that others do not. This post is obviously set up to say Muslims do not follow the God of the Christians.

Thus you will see obviously we will Support Muhammad is from the Same God of Judaisim and Christianity.

Regards Tony

This thread is set up to say Mohammed is not a prophet. I know how Mormons react to saying their prophets are not prophets. I see the same thing is going on here for another self-proclaimed prophet and his followers. Of course people defend their deeply held beliefs.

But you won’t ever convince Catholics on a Catholic message board that any of these “prophets” lead to truth. Of course, Muslims reject the God of Christianity, entirely. We view that as following an incomplete understanding of God.

Not to mention teaching Jesus is a manifestation…an old heresy refuted long ago.

 

[TonyBS]

This thread is set up to say Mohammed is not a prophet. I know how Mormons react to saying their prophets are not prophets. I see the same thing is going on here for another self-proclaimed prophet and his followers. Of course people defend their deeply held beliefs.

But you won’t ever convince Catholics on a Catholic message board that any of these “prophets” lead to truth. Of course, Muslims reject the God of Christianity, entirely. We view that as following an incomplete understanding of God.

Yes no person can convince another, as Faith is a 100% gift from God.

All we can do is offer Gods Love to each other and let our hearts find Our God within.

Regards Tony

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes no person can convince another, as Faith is a 100% gift from God.

All we can do is offer Gods Love to each other and let our hearts find Our God within.

Regards Tony

I’m thinking that is a nice thing to say. But God within? Truly, Baha’i are a mishmash of many belief systems!

 

[Servant19]

It is to not believe in False Prophets.

How do you know Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Paul were not false prophets?

The Jews tell me they concocted a really good and convincing lie…

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[Vico]

Then Muhammad came and now the Muslims would say Revelation was completed in Muhammad, the “Seal of the Prophets”.

Seems that when we chain Gods Hands by saying His Revelation is complete, that God chains our hands instead.

It would be like saying there will be no more sun rises as it has already risen and does not need to come back around again.

I like it that God never leaves us alone, even we have decided we do not want him again and become snug and comfortable in our pitiful understanding of Him.

Regards Tony

Christianity has different belief than other religions. That we are not left alone is clearly expressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, regarding the Sacramental Economy, that “In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church” – “He acts through the sacraments”:

Part Two - The Celebration of the Christian Mystery
Section One - The Sacramental Economy

**1076 **The Church was made manifest to the world on the day of Pentecost by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.1 The gift of the Spirit ushers in a new era in the “dispensation of the mystery” the age of the Church, during which Christ manifests, makes present, and communicates his work of salvation through the liturgy of his Church, “until he comes.” 2 In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the sacraments in what the common Tradition of the East and the West calls “the sacramental economy”; this is the communication (or “dispensation”) of the fruits of Christ’s Paschal mystery in the celebration of the Church’s “sacramental” liturgy.

It is therefore important first to explain this “sacramental dispensation” (chapter one). The nature and essential features of liturgical celebration will then appear more clearly (chapter two).

1 Cf. Sacrosanctum concilium 6; Lumen Gentium 2.
2 1 Cor 11:26.

 

[TonyBS]

I’m thinking that is a nice thing to say. But God within? Truly, Baha’i are a mishmash of many belief systems!

RebeccaJ I had signed off but I thought of a question to ask you and behold you has posted a reply applicable

We must all find God within with Laws. If we find self insteaf, then the unconstained can not shine through us.

Now an observation/question

Consider a Person finds a Faith in God. That Faith tells
Him there is but one God and teaches that He must live all the Virtues and give his entire self to service to all of Humanity.

Thus from this time that is what this person tried to do, gave up all in life an travelled to the most remote places to practice this Faith.

Prayers to God always answered, prayers shown in many confirmations of Faith,a Faith that tells Him that to Love Christ one must Love all the Prophets and all prayers offered are answered as God so chooses.

Tell me how this is wrong because ones belief has not taken on a certain set of dogma. Tell me how this is deception on a grand scale and not of God.

Tell me me also how a Muslim in the same position that also prays to the One God using the guidance of Muhammad and spends their life in service is not of God.

Now if a Christian doing the same thing is then to say but your works are all based on a false Prophet, what hope is there for humanity?

What hope is there of us finding our one God.

Regards Tony

 

[TonyBS]

Christianity has different belief than other religions. That we are not left alone is clearly expressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, regarding the Sacramental Economy, that “In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church” – “He acts through the sacraments”:

Part Two - The Celebration of the Christian Mystery
Section One - The Sacramental Economy

**1076 **The Church was made manifest to the world on the day of Pentecost by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.1 The gift of the Spirit ushers in a new era in the “dispensation of the mystery” the age of the Church, during which Christ manifests, makes present, and communicates his work of salvation through the liturgy of his Church, “until he comes.” 2 In this age of the Church Christ now lives and acts in and with his Church, in a new way appropriate to this new age. He acts through the sacraments in what the common Tradition of the East and the West calls “the sacramental economy”; this is the communication (or “dispensation”) of the fruits of Christ’s Paschal mystery in the celebration of the Church’s “sacramental” liturgy.

It is therefore important first to explain this “sacramental dispensation” (chapter one). The nature and essential features of liturgical celebration will then appear more clearly (chapter two).

1 Cf. Sacrosanctum concilium 6; Lumen Gentium 2.
2 1 Cor 11:26.

In see two important things within that declaration

That is it mentions “Dispensation” and then, “until he comes.”

Both would support the possibility of what we have previously mentioned being Fact.

Regards Tony

 

[Micosil]

How do you know Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Paul were not false prophets?

The Jews tell me they concocted a really good and convincing lie…

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It can be historically shown that only at most within 3 years of Christ’s death, there already was a creed, a belief, floating around in Jerusalem that He had died, was buried, was raised on the third day, and then He appeared to the Apostles. This creed was from way before Paul wrote his epistles, and from way before any of the Gospels.

The earliest record of these appearances is to be found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-7, a tradition that Paul ‘received’ after his apostolic call, certainly not later than his visit to Jerusalem in 35 CE, when he saw Cephas (Peter) and James (Gal. 1:18-19), who, like him, were recipients of appearances.

— The Oxford Companion to the Bible

…it goes back at least to what Paul was taught when he was converted, a couple of years after the crucifixion.

— Michael Goulder, “The Baseless Fabric of a Vision,” in Gavin D’Costa, editor, Resurrection Reconsidered (Oxford: Oneworld, 1996), 48.

…the elements in the tradition are to be dated to the first two years after the crucifixion of Jesus…not later than three years… the formation of the appearance traditions mentioned in I Cor.15.3-8 falls into the time between 30 and 33 CE.

— Gerd Lüdemann, The Resurrection of Jesus, trans. by Bowden (Fortress, 1994), 171-72.

…The conviction that Jesus had risen from the dead had already taken root by the time Paul was converted about 33 C.E. On the assumption that Jesus died about 30 C.E., the time for development was thus two or three years at most.

— Robert Funk, Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar, The Acts of Jesus, 466.

Despite uncertainties about the extent of tradition which Paul received (126), there is no reason to doubt that this information was communicated to Paul as part of his introductory catechesis (16.3) (127). He would have needed to be informed of precedents in order to make sense of what had happened to him. When he says, ‘I handed on (paredoka) to you as of first importance (en protois) what I also received (parelabon)’ (15.3), he assuredly does not imply that the tradition became important to him only at some subsequent date. More likely he indicates the importance of the tradition to himself from the start; that was why he made sure to pass it on to the Corinthians when they first believed (15.1-2) (128). This tradition, we can be entirely confident, was formulated as tradition within months of Jesus’ death.

— James Dunn, Jesus Remembered (Eerdmans, 2003) 854-55.

[It] goes back at least to what Paul was taught when he was converted, a couple of years after the crucifixion.

— Michael Goulder, “The Baseless Fabric of a Vision,” in Gavin D’Costa, editor, Resurrection Reconsidered (Oxford: Oneworld, 1996), 48.

This is the kind of foundation-story with which a community is not at liberty to tamper. It was probably formulated within the first two or three years after Easter itself, since it was already in formulaic form when Paul ‘received’ it.

— N.T. Wright, Resurrection of the Son of God, 319.

Thus even renowned atheist historian Gerd Ludemann acknowledges that within one to two years after his death the belief that Jesus had been raised from the dead was so widespread and central to Christian practice that it formed part of the basic catechetical instruction. This is no late evolutionary development of Christian faith decades after the real facts were forgotten. (Ludemann with Ozen, What Really Happened to Jesus? p. 15)

— Craig Blomberg, The Historical Reliability of the Gospels, 148.

Servant19, the basic ideas of Easter were all there since the beginning. This Pauline creed was way too early to have been tampered with. If Paul, and the Gospel authors who also reaffirmed the Passion and Resurrection narrative, were false prophets, why did Paul go to his death at the hands of Nero, as affirmed by multiple sources such as Ignatius of Antioch, Dionysius of Corinth, Tertullian, Eusebius of Caesarea, Lactantius, Jerome, John Chrysostom, and Sulpicius Severus? Where are the hallmarks of a false prophet? How come Peter got himself crucified?

False prophets wouldn’t generally get themselves killed for something they knew to be a lie. If they were convinced by a hallucination, it wouldn’t be that many people in on it evangelizing in the face of Christ’s enemies and eventually getting martyred. If they were convinced by Satan, it seems hard to believe this manifestation of Satan told them to love their enemies, to forgive easily, and to uphold the Ten Commandments.

And since this is a thread about Muhammed, I ask you – where is this level of comparable historical evidence for Muhammad’s claims, like the ones I pasted above? Remember, many of my citations are from non-Christians and atheists.

 

[Servant19]

How do we know that for sure? Sunnis will say that shias are not true muslims.

Only God can fully clarify that one, and He has

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[Servant19]

It can be historically shown that only at most within 3 years of Christ’s death, there already was a creed, a belief, floating around in Jerusalem that He had died, was buried, was raised on the third day, and then He appeared to the Apostles. This creed was from way before Paul wrote his epistles, and from way before any of the Gospels.

— The Oxford Companion to the Bible

— Michael Goulder, “The Baseless Fabric of a Vision,” in Gavin D’Costa, editor, Resurrection Reconsidered (Oxford: Oneworld, 1996), 48.

— Gerd Lüdemann, The Resurrection of Jesus, trans. by Bowden (Fortress, 1994), 171-72.

— Robert Funk, Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar, The Acts of Jesus, 466.

— James Dunn, Jesus Remembered (Eerdmans, 2003) 854-55.

— Michael Goulder, “The Baseless Fabric of a Vision,” in Gavin D’Costa, editor, Resurrection Reconsidered (Oxford: Oneworld, 1996), 48.

— N.T. Wright, Resurrection of the Son of God, 319.

— Craig Blomberg, The Historical Reliability of the Gospels, 148.

Servant19, the basic ideas of Easter were all there since the beginning. This Pauline creed was way too early to have been tampered with. If Paul, and the Gospel authors who also reaffirmed the Passion and Resurrection narrative, were false prophets, why did Paul go to his death at the hands of Nero, as affirmed by multiple sources such as Ignatius of Antioch, Dionysius of Corinth, Tertullian, Eusebius of Caesarea, Lactantius, Jerome, John Chrysostom, and Sulpicius Severus? Where are the hallmarks of a false prophet? How come Peter got himself crucified?

False prophets wouldn’t generally get themselves killed for something they knew to be a lie. If they were convinced by a hallucination, it wouldn’t be that many people in on it evangelizing in the face of Christ’s enemies and eventually getting martyred. If they were convinced by Satan, it seems hard to believe this manifestation of Satan told them to love their enemies, to forgive easily, and to uphold the Ten Commandments.

And since this is a thread about Muhammed, I ask you – where is this level of comparable historical evidence for Muhammad’s claims, like the ones I pasted above? Remember, many of my citations are from non-Christians and atheists.

Thankyou dear Micosil.

The reason I posted what you quoted was because the evidence of Divinity and the persecution of Muhammad’s Apostles ( and even more so the Apostles of the Bab and Baha’u’llah ) is there for all to examine. They were all persecuted in the face of upholding what they knew to be true.

What comparable claims of Muhammad are you looking for? That His Apostles were willing to die for their belief in Him as a Prophet?

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