Was Novus Ordo a good idea

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Windmill:
dude,

I’m in a Gregorian Chant group. “Novus Ordo” is a pretty basic translation. I’m not asking for a translation. I’m attempting to illustrate that this is not the official name for the contemporary form of the Mass, but, rather, a slur promoted by Tridentine-devotees to insinuate that the current form is some huge novelty.

rich
If you consider it a slur then you are in for a surprise when you find many fine Catholic writers and speakers both clerical and lay using it. Basically it is used to differentiate between the liturgies of pre and post Vatican II. It is not a slur, it is an identifier.

As Cardinal Arinze points out Pius V instittuted the “novus ordo” of his time too.
 
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JKirkLVNV:
I’ve heard tell that a pope or popes (I cannot cite which one it was, I’m afraid) said that Satan can decieve through things such as incorruptibility of dead bodies (one of the things they look for in saints’ causes). Could he not do the same by speciously replicating the Stigmata?
There have been numerous instances of fakes who gained great followings and a cult like status and were later shown to be totally fraudulent… Which is one reason the Church is so cautious about letting the situation play out over a long period of time - it is as a true ocurrence rather rare - but frauds aplenty. I have not however, ever heard of a demonic ploy using a true stigmata.
 
I would say it is good to have the mass in the vernacular, but I would not say that all the changes are good. I really think it is much better that the preist face the same direction the people face. I also think that the translation is extremely poor.
 
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Windmill:
P.S. As I asked in another thread, I have yet to see an official Catholic document referring to the contemporary rite as the Novus Ordo.

Have you seen one?
Novus Ordo simply means the New Order. That is exactly what it is. It is a new Order of the Mass.
 
I voted no; Only because it may not have been the best idea for the time, especially in places like America.
However, I trust the wisdom of the Church, and accept the New Mass.
 
I voted 'NO".
Mules pull wagons, did anyone ask the mule if he liked to pull wagons? No.

The question was, “Was the Novus Ordo a good idea?” Judge an action by its fruits.

Just look at its fruits: fewer go to confession now, fewer attend Mass now and fewer are attending a Seminary now. So it seems the new mass has had a negative effect!
 
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JKirkLVNV:
I’ve heard tell that a pope or popes (I cannot cite which one it was, I’m afraid) said that Satan can decieve through things such as incorruptibility of dead bodies (one of the things they look for in saints’ causes). Could he not do the same by speciously replicating the Stigmata?
It’s not just Popes…what they are reiterating is something that is stated in this passage in the New Testament:
2nd Corinthians 11:13 For such false apostles are deceitful workmen, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.
The NT also says that in the last days there will be lying wonders and false miracles that if it were possible would even fool “the elect of God”:
See here (and ALWAYS check my context please)

Matthew 24 :24 For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect.

Mark 13:22 For there will rise up false Christs and false prophets, and they shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce (if it were possible) even the elect.

The church has always urged caution with regard to any supernatural event for this very reason.
Pax vobiscum,
 
And I Quote:

Please show me in the documents where such prohibition of the TLM is stated. To imply that the indult of Pope John Paul II was somehow an aberration of the Council is fallacious in the extreme. The Pope via Ecclesiae Dei was simply insuring that the Council directives be carried out, recognizing the provision for worship via the Tridentine Rite in the Council documents. The truth is that such an idult would not have been necessary had the bishops of this country been obedient to the Council and to Rome.

There was a mysticism about the old rite which could be visibly felt. There was an atmosphere created in Churches where high altars and glorious golden tabernacles conveyed in unmistakable terms that God WAS TRULY PRESENT, BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY.

**To say that the laity weren’t fully participating in that liturgy is to convey a misunderstanding of same. Full participation doesn’t demand constant verbalization, singing, swaying in the pews. Someone mentioned how silence can be indicative of the most fervent participation imaginable in Church liturgies. This was particularly true of the old Latin Rite. There was a solemnity that told all that something SPECIAL was happening in the Church. God Almighty was present there and, as such, deserved our respect. **

There was no leaving Mass talking to one’s friends as if you were in a Mall. There was no “Our Lady of Perpetual Dins.” I’ll tell you what there was. There was a feeling that you were just privileged to be in the real presence of God with the symbolism of the rite unmistakably conveying that. You knelt at the Holy Communion rails and waited for the principal celebrant to bring God to you, not Joe or Sally down the street. **You stayed after Mass and said the prayer to St. Michael because you believed that the devil existed. **You wouldn’t dream of touching the host with your hands because you were “unworthy” befitting the prayer said before receiving the Body and Blood of Jesus in the host, “Lord, I am not worthy for Thou to come under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.”

There was nothing “disjointed” about the “old” Mass. It was beautiful in its simplicity, in its regard for the most accurate translation of the Word of God, and in particular, in its SENSE OF THE SUPERNATURAL which has been lost with the Novus Ordo. That is not only my humble opinion but that of an increasing number of Catholics who have come to realize that the “old” Mass wasn’t broke but, somehow, that fact didn’t seem to enter into the minds of progressive liturgists who were bound and determined to “fix” it anyway. It is a fact that the problems in the liturgy today are a result of ICEL’s introduction of inane vertical/horizontal inclusive language with the blessings of the BCL of the NCCB.
Why are we so reticent to consider the beauty of the Tridentine Mass? Why do liturgical “experts” and clergy feel obliged to go out of their way and say that we most certainly must not go back to that beautiful liturgy? **Maybe one of the “experts” could explain that to a poor simple “Joe six-pack in-the-pew” who is minus degrees in Theology and Scripture Studies but who has noticed that the Churches were filled before Vatican II and are empty now. **

.

**What we’ve witnessed since Vatican II is the piecemeal destruction of our Churches, our liturgy - in effect the Protestantization of our Faith. **

We’re told in Sacred Scripture that “At the very name of God every knee shall bend on Earth, in Heaven, and under the Earth.” Isn’t it sad that even the demons must kneel at the name of God, yet some Roman Catholics find that impossible!

**You mess with the liturgy, you’re messing with the beliefs of the Faithful. You change the language, you change the ideas. I wouldn’t want that on my soul when I meet my Maker. **
 
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HagiaSophia:
As Cardinal Arinze points out Pius V instittuted the “novus ordo” of his time too.
I heard Cardinal Arinze’s interview on EWTN. I was under the (name removed by moderator)ression that when Arroyo used the term, he clarified that even the Tridentine Mass was once the “novus ordo”, as if to correct Arroyo for the use of the term.

Whatever you call it, it does point to how bias slips subtley into polls. (as if the intial post wasn’t enough).
 
The idea that the Traditional Latin Mass is a “novus ordo” is an innovation. The Tridentine Mass is identical to the Mass of 1474 which was identical to the missal of… down to Pope Gregory I in the seventh century and the Roman Canon is over 1600 years old… For more history of this RIte go here…
 
BulldogCath said:
And I Quote:

What we’ve witnessed since Vatican II is the piecemeal destruction of our Churches, our liturgy - in effect the Protestantization of our Faith
.

We’re told in Sacred Scripture that “At the very name of God every knee shall bend on Earth, in Heaven, and under the Earth.” Isn’t it sad that even the demons must kneel at the name of God, yet some Roman Catholics find that impossible!

You mess with the liturgy, you’re messing with the beliefs of the Faithful. You change the language, you change the ideas. I wouldn’t want that on my soul when I meet my Maker.

I have to disagree with this remark. I grew up with both TLM and the NO and to me it makes zero difference because I know who is there on that altar and I am literally in full, active, conscious, and joyful participation in the Mass. I simply do not see this alleged destruction of our faith that you speak of. I was at the Ritual of Election here recently and the cathedral was PACKED with people coming into the Catholic Church. IMHO I think we need to stop all this cryin’ and whinin’ and be busy about the Lord’s business because all this foolishness simply distracts us from the real work of God which is the spread of the Gospel. I have absolutely NO doubt that the devil himself is laughing his pointy tail off at us while this sort of distraction persists. We need to be busy in helping with adult faith formation in our parishes to insure that new converts as well as cradle Catholics all know why we believe what we believe and can at least make a decent defense of the faith and a good accounting of themselves both by their words and the way they live day to day.

Also this allegation that in changing the language one changes the ideas, though accurate in a literal sense, is also a good thing because now when anyone is present there at the liturgy one cannot help but be fully aware of what we are all about. In fact…the liturgy of the early church was indeed in the vernacular of the people right up until Latin became pretty much the universal common language. If the vernacular languages are invalid then why would the NT have been written in the Greek of it’s day so that those who could read the vernacular language of commerce of the times could read what little written NT there was in circulation at that time?

Yes I know there are liturgical abuses! We can only deal with those through appeals to our bishops and by drenching the “culprits” in prayer, fasting, and loving counsel. That’s the way my NT reads anyway… There are problems…there always have been and there always will be and we should be used to that by now and accept it as de riguer and carry on in faithfulness to Our Lord. For God’s sake let us never forget all the great examples of the great cloud of witnesses that we have in the lives of all our Saints

Pax vobiscum,
 
I just can’t wait to attend my evangelical, pentecostal Mass on Sunday’s & Holy Days.

I’m waiting for them to be broadcast on TBN.

It’s going to take alot of faith, prayer & fasting to rectify all, especially out here in Lost Angeles.

james
 
Hey Jakub,
I think you’re right, but I figure it’s our own fault to some degree because we failed to do all those things for so long that this was the result. Gotta pull it together and be busy…
Pax vobiscum,
 
I voted “no” because when the Mass changed a lot of people stopped going to church.
 
When does the new Mass stop being called new? It’s over 30 years old. People over 30 certainly aren’t new.

I propose we just call it the Mass. The '62 and previous liturgy can be called Mass Classic.
Who’s with me? :tiphat:

Therefore, the proper question for this poll is: Was the Mass a good idea?

Uhhhhhhhhhh… :hmmm:
 
Probably not, a lot of Catholics quit attending mass regularly, attending only for funerals and weddings, at the time the switch was made to English.
 
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pnewton:
I heard Cardinal Arinze’s interview on EWTN. I was under the (name removed by moderator)ression that when Arroyo used the term, he clarified that even the Tridentine Mass was once the “novus ordo”, as if to correct Arroyo for the use of the term.

Whatever you call it, it does point to how bias slips subtley into polls. (as if the intial post wasn’t enough).
I obtained a totally different impression; what I got from him was that the Mass has changed and evolved down through the church’s history and at the time Pius codified his Mass, it was the “novus order” of its day. But I’ve never taken it to be much of anything else but an “identifier”. To me it is simply a neutral expression of the New Order of the Mass— Novus Ordo Missae
 
Dr. Bombay:
When does the new Mass stop being called new? It’s over 30 years old. People over 30 certainly aren’t new.

I propose we just call it the Mass. The '62 and previous liturgy can be called Mass Classic.
Who’s with me? :tiphat:

Therefore, the proper question for this poll is: Was the Mass a good idea?

Uhhhhhhhhhh… :hmmm:
i propose everyone shuts up about the name since it doesnt make any difference. the name isnt the point at all.
 
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Mycroft:
i propose everyone shuts up about the name since it doesnt make any difference. the name isnt the point at all.
Don’t sass me. :tsktsk:
 
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