His conversion story is inspiring to both sides. Protestants, particularly more traditional ones, also like a lot about what he said regarding sin, grace, justification, predestination, etc. However, they’re likely to ignore him on just about everything else from the authority of the Church to Mary being without sin to his canon of Scripture.Protestants revere this man
As far as I’m aware, the Church hasn’t definitively sided with Thomism or Molinism. It’s just that most Catholics probably lean Molinist.But you say that the Catholic Church is teaching Molinism? Why?
Somewhat humorously, I know some Reformed Christians who, when attempting to answer the difficult questions facing Reformed theology, basically find themselves accepting this Thomistic view of TULIP. That was also me shortly before I started looking into Catholicism. (Granted, I probably wouldn’t hold to it anymore.)T = total inability (to please God without special grace);
U = unconditional election;
L = limited intent (for the atonement’s efficacy);
I = intrinsically efficacious grace (for salvation);
P = perseverance of the elect (until the end of life)
Why? Do you feel it’s untenable? Can you still be Catholic in Thomistic these days?Somewhat humorously, I know some Reformed Christians who, when attempting to answer the difficult questions facing Reformed theology, basically find themselves accepting this Thomistic view of TULIP. That was also me shortly before I started looking into Catholicism. (Granted, I probably wouldn’t hold to it anymore.)
Yes, it is possible to be a Thomist, and from what I hear, it is common for former Calvinists like myself to gravitate towards Thomism early on since it provides a less drastic paradigm shift. From what I remember when reading Jimmy Akin’s proposal on the Thomistic TULIP, he was in a similar place when he converted. (Don’t quote me on that, it’s been a while.)Why? Do you feel it’s untenable? Can you still be Catholic in Thomistic these days?
I don’t know much about it. The above article from Jimmy Akin mentions a resource that might help. He also makes it sound closer to Thomism, but that’s all I really know.Also, I am still curious as to what this third school of thought is; Augustinian ?
I understand. I was there myself a couple years ago, and Thomism did put my mind a bit at ease regarding becoming Catholic.Thomism is actually helping me move away from my Reformed background. You have to understand that Calvinism, once absorbed, is psychologically gripping. The idea of even modifying it to include anything “Roman” would be akin to ceasing to be a Christian.
-St Augustine on the RELICS OF DEAD SAINTS:As a catechumen, I was blessed regularly from birth with the sign of the Cross and was seasoned with God’s salt, for, O Lord, my mother placed great hope in you." (Confessions 1.11.13)
-St Augustine on offering the SACRIFICE OF THE MASS FOR THE DEAD IN PURGATORY:Thou by a vision made known to Your renowned bishop [St. Ambrose] the spot where lay the bodies of Gervasius and Protasius, the martyrs (whom You had in Your secret storehouse preserved uncorrupted for so many years), whence You might at the fitting time produce them to repress the feminine but royal fury. For when they were revealed and dug up and with due honour transferred to the Ambrosian Basilica, not only they who were troubled with unclean spirits (the devils confessing themselves) were healed, but a certain man also, who had been blind many years begged to be permitted to touch with his handkerchief the bier of Your saints. When he had done this, and put it to his eyes, they were immediately opened. (Confessions 11.7)
-St Augustine on the BIBLICAL TEACHING OF MIXING WATER & WINE for the Eucharist:So, when the body was carried forth, we both went and returned without tears. For neither in those prayers which we poured forth unto You when the sacrifice of our redemption was offered up unto You for her—the dead body being now placed by the side of the grave, as the custom there is, prior to its being laid therein . . . I know that she acted mercifully, and from the heart forgave her debtors their debts; do Thou also forgive her debts, whatever she contracted during so many years since the water of salvation. Forgive her, O Lord, forgive her, I beseech You; enter not into judgment with her." (Confessions 11:12,13)
But these writings of the apostles, though clear, are yet profound, and are so written that one who is not content with a superficial acquaintance, but desires to know them thoroughly, must not only read and hear them, but must have an expositor. Let us, then, study these various modes of speech as they are exemplified in the writings of men who, by reading the Scriptures, have attained to the knowledge of divine and saving truth, and have ministered it to the Church. Cyprian of blessed memory writes in the subdued style in his treatise on the sacrament of the cup. In this book he resolves the question, whether the cup of the Lord ought to contain water only, or water mingled with wine." (On Christian Doctrine, Book 4)
-St Augustine says the DEUTEROCANON IS SCRIPTURE:For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church, the Lord said: "Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it!" Matthew 16:18 The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these:— Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found." (Letter 53.1.2)
-St Augustine on FALLING FROM REGENERATION/JUSTIFICATION:Now the whole canon of Scripture on which we say this judgment is to be exercised, is contained in the following books:—Five books of Moses, that is, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; one book of Joshua … Job, and Tobias, and Esther, and Judith, and the two books of Maccabees, and the two of Ezra … the Psalms of David; and three books of Solomon, viz., Proverbs, Song of Songs, and Ecclesiastes. For two books, one called Wisdom and the other Ecclesiasticus, are ascribed to Solomon from a certain resemblance of style, but the most likely opinion is that they were written by Jesus the son of Sirach. Still they are to be reckoned among the prophetical books, since they have attained recognition as being authoritative. … The authority of the Old Testament is contained within the limits of these forty-four books." (On Christian Doctrine 2.8.13)
-St Augustine on MORTAL VS VENIAL SINS AND PENANCE:If, however, being already regenerate and justified, he relapses of his own will into an evil life, assuredly he cannot say, "I have not received," because of his own free choice to evil he has lost the grace of God, that he had received." (Rebuke And Grace 9)
When you have been baptized, hold fast a good life in the commandments of God, that you may guard your Baptism even unto the end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin; but they are venial, without which this life is not. For the sake of all sins was Baptism provided; for the sake of light sins, without which we cannot be, was prayer provided. What has the Prayer? “Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors.” Only, do not commit those things for which you must needs be separated from Christ’s body: which be far from you! For those whom you have seen doing penance, have committed heinous things, either adulteries or some enormous crimes: for these they do penance. Because if theirs had been light sins, to blot out these daily prayer would suffice." (Catechumens on the Creed 15)
-St Augustine on Mary being CO-MEDIATOR of graces:We must except the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." (Nature & Grace 42)
-St Augustine on CELIBACY OF THE CLERGY (BISHOPS, PRIESTS, DEACONS) AS APOSTOLIC TEACHING:Mary, therefore, doing the will of God, after the flesh, is only the mother of Christ, but after the Spirit she is both His sister and mother. And on this account, that one female, not only in the Spirit, but also in the flesh, is both a mother and a virgin. And a mother indeed in the Spirit, not of our Head, Which is the Saviour Himself, of Whom rather she was born after the Spirit: forasmuch as all, who have believed in Him, among whom is herself also, are rightly called "children of the Bridegroom:" but clearly the mother of His members, which are we: in that she wrought together by charity, that faithful ones should be born in the Church, who are members of That Head" (On Holy Virginity, Ch5-6)
-St Augustine on the universal practice of OBSERVING LENT along with FASTING and HOLY THURSDAY:Aurelius the bishop said: When at the past council the matter on continency and chastity was considered, those three grades, which by a sort of bond are joined to chastity by their consecration, to wit bishops, presbyters, and deacons, so it seemed that it was becoming that the sacred rulers and priests of God as well as the Levites, or those who served at the divine sacraments, should be continent altogether, by which they would be able with singleness of heart to ask what they sought from the Lord: so that what the apostles taught and antiquity kept, that we might also keep." (Council of Carthage [AD419], Canon 3)
Suppose some foreigner visit a place in which during Lent it is customary to abstain from the use of the bath, and to continue fasting on Thursday. … If, on the other hand, a Christian, when travelling abroad in some region where the people of God are more numerous, and more easily assembled together, and more zealous in religion, has seen, e.g., the sacrifice twice offered, both morning and evening, on the Thursday of the last week in Lent" (Letter 54.4.5)
-St Augustine on the MONASTIC LIFE:by sure reason and authority of holy Scriptures, we both discover that marriage is not a sin, and yet equal it not to the good either of virginal or even of widowed chastity. Some forsooth by aiming at virginity, have thought marriage hateful even as adultery: but others, by defending marriage, would have the excellence of perpetual continence to deserve nothing more than married chastity" (On Holy Virginity 19)
-St Augustine on the UNCERTAINTY OF PERSEVERANCE:The rules which we lay down to be observed by you as persons settled in a monastery are these … Be regular in prayers at the appointed hours and times … Keep the flesh under by fastings and by abstinence from meat and drink … Obey the prioress as a mother, giving her all due honour, that God may not be offended by your forgetting what you owe to her: still more is it incumbent on you to obey the presbyter who has charge of you all." (Letter 211)
-St Augustine on MARRIAGE AS SACRAMENT AND NOT EVEN ADULTERY IS GROUNDS FOR REMARRIAGE:I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered" (Predestination Book 2.1)
‘For whosoever puts away his wife, except for the cause of fornication, makes her to commit adultery.’ To such a degree is that marriage compact entered upon a matter of a certain sacrament, that it is not made void even by separation itself, since, so long as her husband lives … But I marvel, if, as it is allowed to put away a wife who is an adulteress, so it be allowed, having put her away, to marry another. For holy Scripture causes a hard knot in this matter, in that the Apostle says, that, by commandment of the Lord, the wife ought not to depart from her husband, but, in case she shall have departed, to remain unmarried, or to be reconciled to her husband; whereas surely she ought not to depart and remain unmarried, save from an husband that is an adulterer, lest by withdrawing from him, who is not an adulterer, she cause him to commit adultery. " (On the Good of Marriage 6-7)
What heretical ideas?He was Orthodox(ish). He is useful but a lot of his theology like original guilt influenced western heretical ideas.
To clarify: Synergism isn’t really incompatible with the idea that humans are reliant on God’s grace to even choose Him. It simple recognizes that God doesn’t force a choice. In Protestantism, this is frequently expressed in a “born again” experience. In Catholicism, this is expressed in the sacraments. While we are reliant on God’s grace to even come before and choose the sacraments, God still lets us choose to accept or reject His grace.Or is this not even an issue, so much as it is more about the how the synergism works?
I don’t think so. For instance, one point of Arminianism is still a belief in total depravity, which Molinists, and Catholics in general, don’t accept. In terms of God’s sovereignty, though, Arminianism paints God as a bit more reactionary and willing to relinquish sovereignty than He is in Molinism. In Arminianism, God knew that A would choose Him, so He predestined A to choose Him. In Molinism, God knew that A would choose Him given certain circumstances, and those circumstances fit with the world God desired. In other words, Arminianism relies on fully conditional election, while Molinism doesn’t really fit neatly into either unconditional or conditional election.I mean is Molinism essentially Arminianism?
Now how would this square away with the perseverance of the elect or predestination?That final recognition that we choose to accept or reject God’s grace is the really hard part for monergists. From a monergistic standpoint, that can look like a work done to earn grace. From a synergistic standpoint, the grace is already being offered whether or not you performed the work, so it can’t really be considered “earning” grace so much as “receiving” freely-offered grace.
I think he basically created a heretical Christian sect. He denied the Trinity, though it was polytheism, didn’t even get the trinity correct; he thought it was Mary, Jesus, and the Father. Took out original sin, erasing the need for redemption, based it all on just pure submission to the arbitrary whims of a god who changes his mind coincidently as much as Muhammed does.He was basically an Arian/Nestorian/Gnostic heretic.
One theory I’ve heard (offered by Scott Hahn, if I recall correctly) is that it’s the Church that’s predestined rather than individuals. Not sure the details on that one.Now how would this square away with the perseverance of the elect or predestination?
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspxRead St. John of Damascus and Hilarie Belloc writing on Islam
Thanks I will look it up. I am still Thomistic in all regard, at least for now. I guess I still think like a “Calvinist” in the sense that I am not hung up on this idea that free will must prevail above all. I don’t understand why that must be the case.One theory I’ve heard (offered by Scott Hahn, if I recall correctly) is that it’s the Church that’s predestined rather than individuals. Not sure the details on that one.