Was St. Augustine a Catholic?

[deMontfort]

His screen name is ron_conte and I believe he’s suspended at the moment.

 

[deMontfort]

That’s, like, your opinion man.

(my original post was too over the top)

 

[lanman87]

The way I see it (as an American Evangelical) is that Augustine was 100% Catholic. But that the Catholic church today is different than the Catholic church in Augustine’s time. So while Augustine was 100% Catholic the Catholic church today isn’t 100% Augustinian.

I downloaded the complete works of Augustine and have read several of his works. Some of it sounds like it comes straight from a Presbyterian Seminary.

 

[lanman87]

That’s, like, your opinion man. I needn’t remind you what body part opinions resemble.

All I can do is relate my experiences. A couple of years ago I thought the same thing you posted. Then I took the time to read and study Calvinism and found that many of my preconceived notions didn’t hold water when it came to the actually teachings of Calvinism. I still haven’t become a Calvinist but I do have a better understanding and appreciation for the teachings.

 

[AugustineFanNYC]

All I can do is relate my experiences. A couple of years ago I thought the same thing you posted. Then I took the time to read and study Calvinism and found that many of my preconceived notions didn’t hold water when it came to the actually teachings of Calvinism. I still haven’t become a Calvinist but I do have a better understanding and appreciation for the teachings.

I agree that there are many non-Calvinists that misinterpret what Calvinists say, but, and speaking as a former Calvinist, you don’t want to go down that road. It can be, at least to me, a bit psychologically imposing.

Many people are first turned off to Calvinism, at least their first impression isn’t a nice one. This may lead a Calvinist to believe that the initial repulsion is just man’s depraved nature acting out. I personally when I was first introduced to Calvinism, did not feel repulsed at all, in fact I was thrilled at thought of a sovereign God. But that was because I thought that every other Christian denomination taught that they didn’t teach about his sovereignty.

To this day, I admit, it does have a grip on me. But I think that Calvinism takes it a bit too far. The Calvinists call it taken too far as hyper-Calvinism, which is basically what most people think of when they think of Calvinism proper, but it sort of is taking Calvinism to it’s most logical extent.

I still think Thomism, and what Jimmy Akin wrote in the linked article I cited above, is sound. I hope he has not recanted on it. He wasn’t reconciling Calvin with Catholicism, he was just asserting Thomism and how Calvin took from Aquinas.

 

[Hodos]

Fantastic response. I completely agree that at the time of their enscripturation, the gospel was proclaimed orally. However, as we know the apostles saw the profound need to provide written record of this gospel, which they did through the writing of the four gospels, and the epistles that eventually became the New Testament canon. As you can see from John’s gospel and many of the epistles, the apostles had to do so because MANY errors were creeping into the Church through false teaching. They recognized the need to correct this in a way that could be reliably transmitted. And the Church, recognizing the value of these writings, copied and distributed these writings enthusiastically so that by the end of the first century, beginning of the second century we had already accepted most of the NT canon. This IS the tradition that was handed down to us.

So, while you are correct, Paul did refer to the tradition he handed down, this tradition is the gospel of which he was preaching, which he provided a record of in his extensive letters.

In addition, Augustine himself made numerous statements whereby he proclaimed the scriptures to be the rule of norm for our doctrine.

The issue is not whether one believes that we are captive to scripture and tradition, I would venture to say that most of us would agree this is so. The issue is which holds primacy as being the unchanging, verifiable record of the apostolic faith. Augustine would agree that this is found in scripture.

Keep in mind the original question, to which I was responding. The OP was asking how Protestants could revere Augustine. The answer, is quite easily because Augustine held a very high view of scripture and his theological works were usually dead on.

 

[AugustineFanNYC]

But then what of his writings, as linked to here about the other Catholic traditions the Protestants reject?

 

[AugustTherese]

This IS the tradition that was handed down to us.

You are suggesting all Tradition was written. Where do you get this from?

 

[Hodos]

No I didn’t. Where are you getting your assumption from? I am suggesting that the tradition that Paul was referring to in 2 Thessalonians was the gospel.

 

[AugustineFanNYC]

One of the reasons why I am leaving Protestantism, and more importantly Reformed tradition, is because of it’s parallel evolution with the Enlightenment, materialism, etc. While they reject it, they’re still sort of the spiritual fathers. Rarely do I hear a modern reformed calvinist talk about things that he might deem too “medieval” like the Devil. The brand the reformed like most is that of the scientist, the rational philosopher, or Alvin Plantiga. They sort of embody all the trappings of modernity only with a spiritual bow. Yet, with the changing times and modernity sort of revealing it’s weaknesses to me, I sense something evil about the promotion of some of the super liberal stuff and anti-theism.

I knew something was up when my mentor who I trusted, an evangelical reformed baptist, started to tell me that there was true science around transgenderism, and that gender probably was on a spectrum. I was floored, then next came his sort of, but not total, capitulation to gay marriage. Not to mention, surprisingly that many of the reformed associations are pretty liberal socially.

This is long winded but not off topic, because I assume that the Protestants and Calvinists follow this same reasoning when keeping the stuff they like about Aquinas and Augustine in, and taking out all the stuff that seems like “medieval Romanism” out.

 

[twf]

Certainly not all Protestants accept St. Augustine. Back in my Evangelical youth, a local Baptist pastor was reprimanded (by the elders I think?) for referencing St. Augustine in a sermon. No Catholic saints were to be acknowledged period. They certainly recognized that he was Catholic.

 

[AugustineFanNYC]

Certainly not all Protestants accept St. Augustine. Back in my Evangelical youth, a local Baptist pastor was reprimanded (by the elders I think?) for referencing St. Augustine in a sermon. No Catholic saints were to be acknowledged period. They certainly recognized that he was Catholic.

Wow, did not know that. I know that he is revered among more Calvinistic reformed types.

 

[twf]

My maternal grandmother rejected even the Apostolic Fathers. It was her position that the “public” church went off the rails pretty much as soon as the apostles died. Many fundamentalist types hold that view.

Really, you have to respect this view to a certain extent. I mean, take St. Ignatius of Antioch…a disciple of the Apostle John, writing in the early second century, who clearly expresses a Catholic understanding of the Eucharist and the episcopate.

 

[AugustineFanNYC]

My maternal grandmother rejected even the Apostolic Fathers. It was her position that the “public” church went off the rails pretty much as soon as the apostles died. Many fundamentalist types hold that view.

How sad. There is SO much wisdom in the early church fathers. Just in Aquinas and Augustine alone even as far removed as they were from the early church there is enough to keep you busy for many years!

 

[fhansen]

Augustine wrote a ton of material. And, in the case of his battle against Pelagianism/legalism, he sometimes seemed to emphasize the role of grace over man’s will. But even though the Church never accepted every last thought that the man had, he was thoroughly Catholic as comes through in other writings, later ones in these cases. Many Protestants dislike the following quotes:

"But He who made you without your consent does not justify you without your consent. He made you without your knowledge, but He does not justify you without you willing it.” (St. Augustine’s Sermon 169, 13

"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing"

 

[JanetF]

I didn’t mean to sound so stupid, sorry. I was just wondering why on Earth do protestants claim him, and what specifically could I cite to show them that he was devout Catholic?

Well, they also claim St. Paul, so maybe it’s the same sort of cognitive dissonance?

 

[AugustineFanNYC]

Jimmy Akins talks about the different schools of thought; Thomistic, Molinism and Augustinian.

But what is this Augustinian position? Does anyone know?

 

[CelticWarlord]

Can Protestants claim him as one of their own?

I’ve only read a quarter of the responses so far, so I may be repeating someone else. Augustine lived long before the schism that divided the Eastern and Latin churches, and even longer before what we call Protestantism appeared on the scene. At the time of his life there was basically only one church in his part of the world to belong to, along with a few heresies that kept sniffing around. So many denominations today are happy to embrace what he wrote and taught without the fear of being tainted by his connection to the big bad Catholic Church, which really wasn’t defined as we think of it today until much later.

 

[AugustineFanNYC]

I’ve only read a quarter of the responses so far, so I may be repeating someone else. Augustine lived long before the schism that divided the Eastern and Latin churches, and even longer before what we call Protestantism appeared on the scene. At the time of his life there was basically only one church in his part of the world to belong to, along with a few heresies that kept sniffing around. So many denominations today are happy to embrace what he wrote and taught without the fear of being tainted by his connection to the big bad Catholic Church, which really wasn’t defined as we think of it today until much later.

But as noted here, he still wrote extensively about stuff the Church still believes. Stuff that Protestants would feel only a deeply devout Catholic would write. They intentionally ignore this stuff and consider it medieval ignorance of the time. Had Augustine lived during the 1500s he most assuredly would’ve become Protestant, is what many Protestants believe.

 

[CelticWarlord]

Had Augustine lived during the 1500s he most assuredly would’ve become Protestant, is what many Protestants believe.

I’m quite sure they would make the same claim of the Apostles, Ignatius, Jerome, and all the other fine thinkers of the early centuries. But to be fair to my fellow Protestants, I think what they are doing is selecting the best of what Augustine wrote and forgive him for the “failing” of being Catholic. Billy Graham called Augustine the greatest theologian ever, after Paul. One dear friend is a huge fan of Augustine and she’s never set foot in a Catholic church in her life.

To get back to your original post, though, I don’t think it’s a matter of “claiming” a saint for one’s own denomination, but of recognizing that there is far more which unites us than divides us. Most honest Protestants I know would fully agree.