Was the American Revolution justified?

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The outcome had the revolutionaries lost, by the way, is one of those very few few cases in which alternative histories are testable. The outcome is called ‘Canada’.
That’s assuming quite a bit. Do you believe progress towards democracy was inevitable? One of those supposed waves of history where men were mere observers. Did the American experiment with government of the people, by the people, for the people play a critical role at all?
 
Imagine a British North America, welcoming all people of the world, comprised of everything from Nome to Key West, from Alert to San Diego. That’s what it could have ended up looking like.
I watched a video on YouTube by a historian who put together a video about what if America had lost the Revolutionary War.

Their argument, based on how things played out in American history, is that what is currently the United States would never have grown as large as it did if we remained British.

It’s an interesting video.

 
I can think of many reasons monarchy is terrible. No check and balance on power; power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely; every few years or decades there’s invariably a war over who is the rightful king; it creates a system of justice where some are more equal than others; good work is not always rewarded and bad acts are often unpunished; the list goes on.
While I don’t consider myself a monarchist, many famous philosophers made the following observations:

The best form of govt is a monarchy with a benevolent monarch. However, things will be tough during the reign of a bad monarch.

The worst form of govt is a true democracy. Reason, it always turns into mob rule and ruled by emotion instead of logic.

The compromise between the two is a Republic.

The United States was founded as a Republic and has been slowly becoming more democratic, which is why we are starting to seriously have issues, as the mob has been able to push their agenda more & more.
 
Did the American experiment with government of the people, by the people, for the people play a critical role at all?
Possibly. But most democracies were established on a different basis. I would say the French revolution had a far greater impact as did working class movements in Europe such as the Chartists. I know this attitude will be hard to accept for people in the US.
 
I have a children’s cartoon for you to watch: Liberty’s Kids. It discusses much of what you are asking, though not from a specifically Catholic viewpoint. It does not hide the ugliness that happened during the revolution. Slavery, capital punishment, and mistreatment of Indians are all touched on.
It does mention those things, and with a surprising degree of nuance, but when it comes to the question of the Revolution itself, it takes a very pro-Revolution stance.

Still a very good show, especially when one considers the fact it’s made for kids. But it has some pretty noticeable biases.
 
Diana would have made an incompetent monarch in my view. Also she could never have been more than Queen consort and could not have ruled in her own right. The sentimentality around this woman has always amazed me.
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She had real flaws along with her many good points.

As for why Charles would choose Camilla, it strikes me that they have far more in common, and therefore likely a stronger marriage of more truly compatible partners, than he and Diana ever had.

Had the family not stepped in and blocked his marrying Camilla, at a stage when he was too young to really stand up for
himself, a lot of misery could probably have been avoided on all sides.
 
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Don’t we all have real flaws?

Charles’ mistake IMHO was marrying Diana when he clearly loved someone else. That’s too much to ask of anyone to deal with, let alone a 19-year-old as Diana was.
 
I struggle with these. On the one hand, authority comes from God. And I think we need to respect it. However let’s be clear, many of these monarchs came to power through the use of force. I sometimes am concerned that the catholic mentality of “suffer nobley” excuses us to not confront injustice. So if an unjust authority comes to power through unjust means we are required now, in perpetuity, to sit there forever?
 
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HomeschoolDad:
Imagine a British North America, welcoming all people of the world, comprised of everything from Nome to Key West, from Alert to San Diego. That’s what it could have ended up looking like.
I watched a video on YouTube by a historian who put together a video about what if America had lost the Revolutionary War.

Their argument, based on how things played out in American history, is that what is currently the United States would never have grown as large as it did if we remained British.

It’s an interesting video.
Sharp-looking flag.
 
Commonwealth membership might be an option, but many if not most Americans would absolutely freak out — assuming they understood what that even means. The typical American neither knows, nor cares, that there is even such a thing AS the Commonwealth.
The Commonwealth contains republics. All countries are independent. It’s just a club of nations where leaders meet and discuss. There’s no treaties being signed. No free trade or free movement of people. Though one benefit is Americans living in the UK would automatically be able to vote in UK elections as Commonwealth citizens without having to gain UK citizenship and the US doesn’t even have to do the same! Canada certainly doesn’t allow UK nationals living here without Canadian citizenship to vote in our elections but if I were to move to the UK on a 5 year visa, I would be able to vote in any election while living there.

Commonwealth realms are different. These actually have the Queen as head of state and it fundamentally changes the way a country is run though probably no visible day-to-day effects are seen.
 
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The rioters destroyed over $1 million dollars (in today’s money) worth of property. Was that a just demonstration?
Of course not. Just like today’s riots and destruction of property is not justified.
the Enlightenment thinking behind the Revolution was fundamentally at odds with Catholic teaching,
Of course it was.
Canada which is still part of the British commonwealth is doing just fine, and from what I have observed on the cities near the US Canada border, the cities in Canada are a whole lot cleaner and much better kept than those in the US. Take a car ride from Guelph Ontario to Buffalo NY and tell me what you see.
 
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At the time of the American Revolution, there were already doubts about the legitimacy of King George. Some colonists were already accustomed to fighting against him and his predecessors. Others has come to America to get away from the British government, like the pilgrims.
The Pilgrims never doubted the legitimacy of the English government. They just simply disagreed with the Church of England. Since they could not live in England in peace, they chose to start a colony in America, but they still recognized the English crown as their sovereign. This is stated right in the Mayflower Compact, which was the social contract of the Plymouth colony.

The preamble to the Mayflower Compact states:
In ye name of God Amen· We whose names are vnderwriten,
the loyall subjects of our dread soueraigne Lord King James
by ye grace of God, of great Britaine, franc, & Ireland king,
defender of ye faith, &c
I would not rest any claims about the legitimacy of the American Revolution on the existence of a King of Britain in Rome. But I do think the Jacobite claims need to be figured into these judgments. The legitimacy of the Georges was already being questioned.
Most Americans at the time were Protestants. They would have been highly reluctant to support the Catholic-tainted Jacobite cause when they had a perfectly good Protestant monarch on the throne already.
 
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From Ferrara’s book and what I know of the Revolution itself, I fail to see how recourse to armed revolt was justified. Certainly the Enlightenment thinking behind the Revolution was fundamentally at odds with Catholic teaching, including St Thomas calling revolt ‘sedition’ and the long standing view that authority was divinely ordained. Indeed, under Julian the Apostate Christians obeyed his rule when it did not conflict with Church teaching, even serving in his army.
The argument for Revolution was not simply that “taxes were too high.” It was much more than that, and there were profound constitutional issues at stake. Essentially, the question was this:

Were the colonies in a relationship with the Crown or Parliament?

If the answer to that question was the Crown, then Parliament had no authority to tax the colonies. Parliament was the legislature for Great Britain only. Each colony had its own legislature, which was equal to Parliament within its own sphere.

This is what the Patriots believed. The colonies were united to the Crown, and therefore, the colonial legislatures were mini-Parliaments.

By the time of the American Revolution, Britain was already becoming a constitutional monarchy. The Glorious Revolution ended any notion of absolute monarchy. Parliament was supreme. Laws were made by the King in Parliament (with the emphasis on Parliament). Only Parliament could make laws and raise taxes.

An Englishmen, the Americans claimed the same prerogatives for themselves. Their colonial assemblies alone should be able to enact laws and taxes binding to the colonists. The king had the right to appoint royal governors to represent his interests and veto colonial laws, but most of the power was already in the hands of the assemblies by the Revolution anyway.

Parliament’s attempt to enact direct taxation upon the colonies, according to this interpretation of the imperial constitution, was a usurpation of power.
 
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The argument for Revolution was not simply that “taxes were too high.”
I didn’t say it was, nor does Mr Ferrara. I just posted the quote in post #5 of this thread as an example of his views.

I notice you said ‘believed’ as far as the ‘Patriots’ go.
 
I struggle with these. On the one hand, authority comes from God. And I think we need to respect it. However let’s be clear, many of these monarchs came to power through the use of force. I sometimes am concerned that the catholic mentality of “suffer nobley” excuses us to not confront injustice. So if an unjust authority comes to power through unjust means we are required now, in perpetuity, to sit there forever?
We are allowed to resist when a ruler demands an unjust thing. You just don’t comply. Like the Christians did when Julian wanted them to offer homage to the gods.
 
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I notice you said ‘believed’ as far as the ‘Patriots’ go.
Yes, since there was obviously a different view. However, this is a fact: Britain had already had a revolution against their monarch and the people had won. The monarchy was much weaker by the time of the American Revolution, and Parliament had taken control of the government. There was a clear constitutional principle by this time that British subjects had the right to life, liberty and property.

By taxing the colonists without their consent and by creating Admiralty Courts without juries, the Americans claimed, with justification, that Parliament was infringing on their well established rights as Englishmen.
 
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However, this is a fact: Britain had already had a revolution against their monarch and the people had won. The monarchy was much weaker by the time of the American Revolution, and Parliament had taken control of the government. There was a clear constitutional principle by this time that British subjects had the right to life, liberty and property.
It’s actually interesting because the first hundred pages of Ferrara’s book concerns the ideological ground on which both the Glorious Revolution and the American Revolution took place. A long analysis and comparison and finally synthesis of Hobbes and Locke and enlightenment thought. The level of anti-Catholicism among them was frightening.
 
The flawed nature of the American revolutionary ideology is revealed in the first two words of the Declaration of Independence, “We hold”. A truth is either self-evident or it is not; it cannot be “held” to be such, for this is to claim the power to create or alter truth; but truth is unalterable and not subject to opinion.

The “truths” which it goes on to enumerate are in fact “self-evidently” false. Man is not necessarily born free, as the slaves of some of the Founding Fathers could testify; nor is man’s right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness unalienable (just ask the guys on death row if their right to these things has been alienated or not.)

The grievances of the revolutionaries were imaginary. The treatment of loyalists was disgusting and caused a mass flight to Canada. The treatment of the indegenes by the post revolutionary government was a shame; unmatched by the British Empire.

I really don’t understand why conservative Americans are so proud of it. It was a total violation of conservative, and especially Catholic, principles. It’s not at all surprising that so many of the revolutionaries were freemasons or that within a few years it led to the atheistic French Revolution.
 
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The British Empire never committed genocide of the kind meted out to the American Indians.
 
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