Was the Last Supper on a Tuesday?

[schulze43]

I recently listened to a talk about the Dead Sea Scrolls that Lighthouse Catholic Media put out and in it the speaker talks about how it looks like the Last Supper was on a Tuesday.

Let me try and take you through the argument.

John 16 says that Jesus arrived in Bethany 6 days before the Passover

Mark 14 talks about the same events in Bethany but says that it was 2 days before the Passover

How could both of these talk about the same events but say different days before the Passover?

Lets look at some clues…

In Luke 22:10 Jesus tells Peter and John to go and prepare for the Passover and when they enter into the city they will find a man carrying a jar of water.

From the Gospel of John we know that Jesus was condemned on the day before the Passover

We know that the lambs in the Temple would have began to be sacrificed at noon the day before the Passover

Now lets take into account that there were different sects of Judaism and there were different calenders being used

A group called the Essenes were a group that lived celibate lives and thought that the Saducees had defiled the Temple. They followed a different calender than the Pharisees and the Saducees. The Essenes feast days always fell on the same day of the week. Passover for them was on Tuesday.

Because the Essenes thought that the Temple was defiled they did not sacrifice lambs for the Passover but had bread and wine for their Passover meal.

Lets go back to our first clue, a man carrying a jar of water. This would have not been a common thing. Women carried water those days not men. So what man would have been carrying his own water? Someone who was celibate and was not married. AKA an Essene.

So if we put everything together it really looks like Jesus might have celebrated the Passover with the Essenes on Tuesday and then on Friday at noon, when He started His passion was the same time the Lambs in the Temple started to be slaughtered. If we look at it this way the conflicting dates in Mark and John fit!

To top it all off though…

The archaeological evidence shows that the upper room where the Last Supper was held was in the Essene quarter of Jerusalem! Not only that there are two different writings by early church fathers that say something like: “and everyone knows that Jesus celebrated the Last Supper on Tuesday”

So is this true? because it sure does sound like it to me! Plus it comes from a very reliable source.

But if this is true why do we celebrate the Last Supper on Thursday? and has it ever been celebrated on Tuesday???

Thanks for any help!!!

 

[ChibiViolet]

I don’t know, but that is very interesting…

 

[George_Stegmeir]

The whole argument reeks of historical revisionism and reeks of some academics seeking their 15 minutes of fame. I am not a biblical scholar, but I am a historian.
Yes, there were several Jewish sects during Jesus’s lifetime. However, the Jewish rulers at that time- the High Priest, Priests of the Temple and the Scribes were all Pharasees and most of Jerusalem and Israel followed their calander. By their calander, the Last Supper and Crucifixion occured on the days stated in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
It is known that the Gospel of St. John was the last book of the New Testament to be written. Modern scholars estimate that it was written over 60 years after the crucifixion.
St John wrote his Gospel without any reference to the other books of the NT, since there was very little, if any, communication amongst the various Christian communities, and St John was incarcerated when he wrote his Gospel from memory.
With reguards to the Essenes: The Essenes were such a minority during Christ’s lifetime, that they were largely ignored by the Jewish public, and they are not even mentioned in the New Testament. Their organization did not begin to grow until after the death of Christ, and it was 60 years after the Crucifixion that they were instrumental in the revolt that resulted in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the forced exile and enslavement of the entire Jewish population of Israel.
The Essenes were largely forgotten by modern times until their memory was resurected by the contemporary State of Isreal to justify their political existance via historical means.

 

[christosdavid]

The whole argument reeks of historical revisionism and reeks of some academics seeking their 15 minutes of fame. I am not a biblical scholar, but I am a historian.
Yes, there were several Jewish sects during Jesus’s lifetime. However, the Jewish rulers at that time- the High Priest, Priests of the Temple and the Scribes were all Pharasees and most of Jerusalem and Israel followed their calander. By their calander, the Last Supper and Crucifixion occured on the days stated in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
It is known that the Gospel of St. John was the last book of the New Testament to be written. Modern scholars estimate that it was written over 60 years after the crucifixion.
St John wrote his Gospel without any reference to the other books of the NT, since there was very little, if any, communication amongst the various Christian communities, and St John was incarcerated when he wrote his Gospel from memory.
With reguards to the Essenes: The Essenes were such a minority during Christ’s lifetime, that they were largely ignored by the Jewish public, and they are not even mentioned in the New Testament. Their organization did not begin to grow until after the death of Christ, and it was 60 years after the Crucifixion that they were instrumental in the revolt that resulted in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the forced exile and enslavement of the entire Jewish population of Israel.
The Essenes were largely forgotten by modern times until their memory was resurected by the contemporary State of Isreal to justify their political existance via historical means.

I’m pretty sure the essenes are mentioned by Josephus (1st century Jewish/ Roman historian) in commenting (Antiquities of the Jews13.5.9;15.10.5;17.13.3;18.1.5 and *Wars *2.8.2ff) that there were 3 main sects - Sadducees, Pharisees and Essenes…

 

[po18guy]

I’m pretty sure the essenes are mentioned by Josephus (1st century Jewish/ Roman historian) in commenting (Antiquities of the Jews13.5.9;15.10.5;17.13.3;18.1.5 and *Wars *2.8.2ff) that there were 3 main sects - Sadducees, Pharisees and Essenes…

And, most famous of the rest: the Zealots, spiritual descendants of the Maccabees. Interesting that of all the sects, only the Zealots were represented among the Apostles.

 

[George_Stegmeir]

I’m pretty sure the essenes are mentioned by Josephus (1st century Jewish/ Roman historian) in commenting (Antiquities of the Jews13.5.9;15.10.5;17.13.3;18.1.5 and *Wars *2.8.2ff) that there were 3 main sects - Sadducees, Pharisees and Essenes…

Yes, Josephus did write about the Essenes, after the revolt of 60 A.D. He was a leader in the Jewish rebellion and was captured by the Romans and paid off to change sides. Although he wrote extensively about the Jews and their politics of his time, he was an apostate who ended up sideing with the Romans. However, in my prior reply I stated that the Essenes were not mentioned in the New Testament. The Zealots were, because during the last 3 years if Christ’s life, they were a significant, numerous and important sect of Judaism.

 

[mskejj]

The whole argument reeks of historical revisionism and reeks of some academics seeking their 15 minutes of fame. I am not a biblical scholar, but I am a historian.
Yes, there were several Jewish sects during Jesus’s lifetime. However, the Jewish rulers at that time- the High Priest, Priests of the Temple and the Scribes were all Pharasees and most of Jerusalem and Israel followed their calander. By their calander, the Last Supper and Crucifixion occured on the days stated in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
It is known that the Gospel of St. John was the last book of the New Testament to be written. Modern scholars estimate that it was written over 60 years after the crucifixion.
St John wrote his Gospel without any reference to the other books of the NT, since there was very little, if any, communication amongst the various Christian communities, and St John was incarcerated when he wrote his Gospel from memory.
With reguards to the Essenes: The Essenes were such a minority during Christ’s lifetime, that they were largely ignored by the Jewish public, and they are not even mentioned in the New Testament. Their organization did not begin to grow until after the death of Christ, and it was 60 years after the Crucifixion that they were instrumental in the revolt that resulted in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple and the forced exile and enslavement of the entire Jewish population of Israel.
The Essenes were largely forgotten by modern times until their memory was resurected by the contemporary State of Isreal to justify their political existance via historical means.

I am afraid much of your information is incorrect. The Sadducees were the High Priest and priests of the Temple. The Pharisees were not priests…they were teachers/rabbis of the law…they did not serve in the Temple. The Zealots were the ones who started the uprising that caused the destruction of the Temple.

The speaker of the CD has his PHD from Notre Dame Univ in 2004 on the Old Testament and the Dead Sea Scrolls and is a professor at Stuebenville University. The Qumran community existed from about 150BC to 68AD. And they did believe the Temple was defiled because the Romans chose a high priest every year with bribes etc. Instead of animal sacrifices for sins they offered their “prayer and sufferings”. Sound familiar?? They were know by Josephus report as the most pious of the Sects and their name comes from “Doers”…as in Doers of the Law. It is believed that John the Baptist was an Essene. They uncovered not only biblical texts but the “Rule of the community” which described much of the lifestyle. Very good evidence that the Last Supper was on a Tuesday and I believe Pope Benedict even addresses this in his book. Very similar ideas to the early church …you should check it out if you are interested. Here is his link…

johnbergsma.com/outlines.html

 

[AmbroseSJ]

Pope Benedict XVI addresses this very issue in his new book Jesus of Nazareth (Part II) Holy Week.

In the book the Pope discounts the idea of the Essene Calendar. However he does seem to agree that the “Last Supper” actually occurred on Tuesday night. But he is also sure that this was NOT the Passover meal, but his own special farewell meal.

It’s worth reading!

 

[mskejj]

Pope Benedict XVI addresses this very issue in his new book Jesus of Nazareth (Part II) Holy Week.

In the book the Pope discounts the idea of the Essene Calendar. However he does seem to agree that the “Last Supper” actually occurred on Tuesday night. But he is also sure that this was NOT the Passover meal, but his own special farewell meal.

It’s worth reading!

I haven’t read his book but I do not understand how he can dismiss the idea that the Essenes followed a different calendar? There is proof from the discoveries in Qumran that they followed a calendar of 364 days and that their feast days always fell on the same day of the year as a result. Their Passover was always celebrated on a Tuesday. I have his book…I will have to read it. Perhaps when he wrote his book, he did not know of the research done on some of the Qumran discoveries…especially if he believes the Last Supper took place on a Tuesday…

 

[steve53]

The Qumran data is very contentious.

The only sources we have for the Essene comes from Josephus, Philo, and a bit in Strabo.

None of these sources mention a separate Essene calender. In fact, Josephus is clear that the three major sects- the Saduccee, the Pharissee, and the Essene all follow the basic precepts of the priesthood outlined in the Torah, but add their own spin on several concepts, or invent augmentations of the Torah. The Sad. do not believe in an afterlife, but the Es. and the Phar. do. That they would develop their own Passover schedule that departs of the Torah is not likely.

The Essene were rarely if ever seen in the Temple, as they eschewed animal sacrifice. They did take part in local synagogue activity, however. The Essene did have their own secret writings and ritual that has been lost today.

That they had their own neighborhood in the the upper city of Jerusalem is suggested only by the northwest gate of that part of the city, which is called the Gate of the Essene.

Exactly how is Israel using the Essene for their own purpose?

BTW Josephus says there were only about 4,000 Essene in his day, who lived communally in houses maintained by stewards, and worked as common laborers or craftsmen.

 

[mskejj]

The Qumran data is very contentious.

The only sources we have for the Essene comes from Josephus, Philo, and a bit in Strabo.

None of these sources mention a separate Essene calender. In fact, Josephus is clear that the three major sects- the Saduccee, the Pharissee, and the Essene all follow the basic precepts of the priesthood outlined in the Torah, but add their own spin on several concepts, or invent augmentations of the Torah. The Sad. do not believe in an afterlife, but the Es. and the Phar. do. That they would develop their own Passover schedule that departs of the Torah is not likely.

The Essene were rarely if ever seen in the Temple, as they eschewed animal sacrifice. They did take part in local synagogue activity, however. The Essene did have their own secret writings and ritual that has been lost today.

That they had their own neighborhood in the the upper city of Jerusalem is suggested only by the northwest gate of that part of the city, which is called the Gate of the Essene.

Exactly how is Israel using the Essene for their own purpose?

BTW Josephus says there were only about 4,000 Essene in his day, who lived communally in houses maintained by stewards, and worked as common laborers or craftsmen.

Why do you say the Qumran data is contentious? Have you studied it?

 

[mskejj]

The Qumran data is very contentious.

The only sources we have for the Essene comes from Josephus, Philo, and a bit in Strabo.

None of these sources mention a separate Essene calender. In fact, Josephus is clear that the three major sects- the Saduccee, the Pharissee, and the Essene all follow the basic precepts of the priesthood outlined in the Torah, but add their own spin on several concepts, or invent augmentations of the Torah. The Sad. do not believe in an afterlife, but the Es. and the Phar. do. That they would develop their own Passover schedule that departs of the Torah is not likely.

The Essene were rarely if ever seen in the Temple, as they eschewed animal sacrifice. They did take part in local synagogue activity, however. The Essene did have their own secret writings and ritual that has been lost today.

That they had their own neighborhood in the the upper city of Jerusalem is suggested only by the northwest gate of that part of the city, which is called the Gate of the Essene.

Exactly how is Israel using the Essene for their own purpose?

BTW Josephus says there were only about 4,000 Essene in his day, who lived communally in houses maintained by stewards, and worked as common laborers or craftsmen.

Perhaps this information would be interesting to you…by Dr. John Bergsma who has in PhD from Notre Dame University in Old Testament and Dead Sea Scrolls. He is now a professor at Stuebenville University.

johnbergsma.com/documents/outlines/deadseascrolls1.pdf

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I haven’t read his book but I do not understand how he can dismiss the idea that the Essenes followed a different calendar? There is proof from the discoveries in Qumran that they followed a calendar of 364 days and that their feast days always fell on the same day of the year as a result. Their Passover was always celebrated on a Tuesday. I have his book…I will have to read it. Perhaps when he wrote his book, he did not know of the research done on some of the Qumran discoveries…especially if he believes the Last Supper took place on a Tuesday…

What I meant was that he dismissed the idea of the Essene Calendar being the reason for the time discrepancy between John’s and the Synoptic gospels. Pope Benedict doesn’t dismiss the idea of the Essene Calendar from existing, and is quite familiar with it. He just doesn’t believe that Jesus and the Apostles were celebrating the Passover on Tuesday BECAUSE of the Essene Calendar. He believes that they would have celebrated the Passover meal on Saturday, like all Jerusalem Jews, but they didn’t (or couldn’t.) They had their own farewell meal on Tuesday night, “The Last Supper.” Notice that the Church never called it “The Last Passover.” Please see the book for a good explanation.

 

[steve53]

Why do you say the Qumran data is contentious? Have you studied it?

There is nothing about Qumran or the Dead Sea Scrolls that can be linked to the Essenes as described by Josephus. And it is not for lack of trying.

Archeologists and Historians are famous for taking cryptic passages in ancient writings and non-specific dig finding and trying to link them to something biblical or from the NT or from Biblical times.

What, specifically, leads you to believe otherwise?

 

[steve53]

Perhaps this information would be interesting to you…by Dr. John Bergsma who has in PhD from Notre Dame University in Old Testament and Dead Sea Scrolls. He is now a professor at Stuebenville University.

johnbergsma.com/documents/outlines/deadseascrolls1.pdf

I read the original sources. You should, too. You could read through all the primary writings on the Essene- Josephus, Philo, and Strabo, in about a half an hour. Secondary research, especially from the ancients, is plentiful and contentious.

 

[mskejj]

I read the original sources. You should, too. You could read through all the primary writings on the Essene- Josephus, Philo, and Strabo, in about a half an hour. Secondary research, especially from the ancients, is plentiful and contentious.

I am confused. The writings found in the cave with ancient documents of the Community Rule of the people who were part of that group…the Qumranites. A celibate group of men who were of the Essene sect. Why would their actual writings which were found and interpreted over the last decades not be authentic as the writings we have from the early historians? In my opinion, it adds to our understanding of what was going on during this time period…it doesn’t subtract from it. Dr. Bergma has studied the original sources…do you have a PHD in Old Testament and the Dead Sea Scrolls? I have no doubt that the writings of the ancient historians are important but the actual documents from 2000 years ago that were written by this group should hold just as much weight if not more because they were from the group itself…not just historians at that time.

 

[steve53]

.the Qumranites. A celibate group of men who were of the Essene sect.

Where did that come from? Who said they were of the Essene sect?

The Essenes lived in cities and villages in common houses. They did NOT inhabit mountaintop fortresses. And Josephus lived in that era and refers to the Essene AS the Essene. It would follow that carvings on cave rocks would also use that term. But nowhere in the DSS is the word “Essene” used.

Even calling them Qumranites is really stretching it.

 

[mskejj]

.the Qumranites. A celibate group of men who were of the Essene sect.

Where did that come from? Who said they were of the Essene sect?

The Essenes lived in cities and villages in common houses. They did NOT inhabit mountaintop fortresses. And Josephus lived in that era and refers to the Essene AS the Essene. It would follow that carvings on cave rocks would also use that term. But nowhere in the DSS is the word “Essene” used.

Even calling them Qumranites is really stretching it.

Did you even go to the website I referenced??? They DISCOVERED more than just Biblical books…go to the website and you will see the community with its ritual baths etc that was unearthed. It is all on his website…pictures included. They DISCOVERED letters and a Community Rule of Law…which explained what the group believed and how they were living. Dr. Bergsma got a PHD from Notre Dame University and his focus was Old Testament and the Dead Sea Scrolls. He has no reason to make things up…his works would not have been published nor would he be employed by Stuebenville University if his work was made up. Check it out…They were a GROUP of men who chose to live out by the caves who were part of the Essene sect. I did not say that there were not other groups of Essenes who lived in cities and villages. I am not referring to cave rocks with the word Essene on them but ACTUAL DOCUMENTS AND LETTERS THAT WERE FOUND.

 

[steve53]

Did you even go to the website I referenced??? They DISCOVERED more than just Biblical books…go to the website and you will see the community with its ritual baths etc that was unearthed. It is all on his website…pictures included. They DISCOVERED letters and a Community Rule of Law…which explained what the group believed and how they were living. Dr. Bergsma got a PHD from Notre Dame University and his focus was Old Testament and the Dead Sea Scrolls. He has no reason to make things up…his works would not have been published nor would he be employed by Stuebenville University if his work was made up. Check it out…They were a GROUP of men who chose to live out by the caves who were part of the Essene sect. I did not say that there were not other groups of Essenes who lived in cities and villages. I am not referring to cave rocks with the word Essene on them but ACTUAL DOCUMENTS AND LETTERS THAT WERE FOUND.

He’s speculating. If it don’t read “Essene” it ain’t “green.”

And sorry, the third ancient source is Pliny the Elder, not Strabo.

Ancient history is full of ascetic male groups.

 

[mskejj]

He’s speculating. If it don’t read “Essene” it ain’t “green.”

And sorry, the third ancient source is Pliny the Elder, not Strabo.

Ancient history is full of ascetic male groups.

I am not aware that we have the actual writings from other male ascetic groups of that era. And I have no idea why you would say he is speculating. I thought when someone wrote a dissertation it had to be supported by evidence. A presentation was just made to Wheaton Bible College discussing some of these findings…especially in reference to the letter that was found from them to the Pharisees concerning the “Works of the Law”. The items mentioned from their Rule of their Community should be given as much weight if not more than sources written at that time about them. I do not understand your rejection. Perhaps you should look into it more deeply instead of just dismissing it.