Was the reformation bound to happen ?

[TinaG]

That is enough for me to stay in my Church irregardless of the wolves in sheep clothing. We are always provided with authentic pastors who nurture and guide us to Jesus Christ with sound and thorough teachings.

This is probably the essence of the problem between Catholics and Protestants - Protestants do not trust Catholic priests and bishops, for a long list of historical reasons, and Catholics do not trust Protestant leaders, for another long list of historical reasons.

I have been to Mass several times, read a number of posts on this forum and looked at various things. The preaching was less than impressive - one homily at one church consisted of the priest pointing out the exact spots in the sanctuary that the bishop had touched when he blessed the place, another one was a rather pointless talk on homemade bread, and a third was a story I did not follow about a saint somebody who lived a long time ago and did something which I am not sure what they did, except the ending line was we were supposed to do likewise.

On the other hand there are things that I find attractive about the Catholic Church. Something always surprises me when I read something on CAF. Catholic theology seems very well thought out and there is a richness to it.

There are numerous threads on CAF about how lousy some bishop is. What would you do if you discovered your bishop actually was, say, an Arian? Or that he advocated the violent overthrow of your government and the installation of a Marxist paradise? Or he rejected papal authority? Etc.?

-Tina “Theologically Suspicious and Eclectic” G

 

[JonNC]

In contrast, we (Presbyterians) count two sacraments as specifically commanded by Christ: baptism and communion, sometimes referred to as ordnances. We also have marriage, confirmation, anointing, and ordination but do not consider them to be in the same category. Jon, I believe you left out confession as practiced by Lutherans. Presbyterians confess sins to each other sometimes as warranted, usually in a counseling situation or as part of an apology, but not in the Catholic confessional system.
James commands us to “confess sins one to another, so that you may be healed” but there is no indication that this is mandated to be to priests.

-Tina “A Confessing Presbyterian” G

Yes, confession/ Holy Absolution is the “3rd” of the “2 or 3” I was talking about. Thanks for allowing me to clarify.

Curious, why don’t Presbyterians consider Absolution in the same way as Baptism and Communion (specifically commanded by Christ), considering His statement on “binding and loosing”?

Jon

 

[TinaG]

Yes, confession/ Holy Absolution is the “3rd” of the “2 or 3” I was talking about. Thanks for allowing me to clarify.

Curious, why don’t Presbyterians consider Absolution in the same way as Baptism and Communion (specifically commanded by Christ), considering His statement on “binding and loosing”?

Jon

I had to look up “Absolution” - I don’t think I have ever heard the term in a Presbyterian church.

This is from Wikipedia

John Calvin denied all idea of sacramentality when there was question of Penance; but he held that the pardon expressed by the minister of the Church gave to the penitent a greater guarantee of forgiveness. The Confession styled “Helvetian” contents itself with denying the necessity of confession to a priest, but holds that the power granted by Christ to absolve is simply the power to preach to the people the Gospel of Jesus, and as a consequence the remission of sins: “Rite itaque et efficaciter ministri absolvunt dum evangelium Christi et in hoc remissionem peccatorum prædicant.”

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolution:

My GUESS is that the later reformers took that declarative principle further, and stated that absolution is the consequence of true faith, hence there is no need to dwell on it. The remission of sins comes through faith. I think this may hearken back to the idea that the sacraments operate through the faith of the believer: both baptism and communion are only effective through faith, so I suspect absolution is as well.

-Tina “Probably I Am Way Off Base” G

 

[TinaG]

A further thought: I don’t recall a Presbyterian minister ever saying “Your sins are forgiven you” - he would regard that as presumptuous, as that is between you and God.

-Tina “But I Also Have A Lousy Memory” G

 

[KathleenGee]

Tina,

I really sympathize with you regarding the DRE, what is going on in the RCIA…and if there is another Catholic Church in town, that is the place to go to. From the sounds of it, you witnessed a Catholic parish that has errant teaching going on. In fact, it sounds like they still are at this stage people were in, during the implementation stage of Vatican II…alot of abuses, people doing their own thing, etc.

I remember my diocese where John Paul II’s teachings were blocked out; one candidate to the seminary was immediately rejected when he mentioned the pope’s name in regards to going along with women priests…the board packed with feminist nuns. It was very hard, but many of us were acknowledging the presence of Mary in helping us get through, and there was a profound bond among all of us who were loyal Catholics, and we made every effort to pray and support our local bishop and all with prayers and penance.

There are movements in the Church to call the Director of Religious Ed a head or master catechist…but I really don’t think the administration in that parish is representing Catholic thought.

I was in another diocese overseas…and began to pick up the false church position by some priests…and my provencial there told me when I was leaving the country he was a communist Christian. No one from capitalist countries was welcomed any more. My own soul was wounded. I came home, invited to join the archdiocesan master catechist program, but dropped out as I was indeed spiritually wounded. We had a papal nuncio sent to that overseas diocese. He was a cardinal who visited the priests, religious, and lay separately. I was invited to go with the women religious. I was shocked when my two sister companions got up and began renouncing what was going on in the diocese. He asked us what each of us thought what the problem was in that diocese…I could not pick up all that the sisters were saying…they kept telling me to get up and talk…I prayed…and I got up…and shared what I have seen in my common experiences in Christ with both protestant and Catholic faith in Christ…my final reply as to what the problem was in the diocese was, ‘Who is Christ?’.

Obviously, there were different concepts going around.

Tina, I am afraid what you are experiencing first hand is what John Paul II spoke of inside the Catholic Church was the True Gospel vs the False Gospel, the True Church vs the False Church.

I came home and told my grandmother I wanted to be, not an American Catholic, or a Marxist Catholic, I wanted to be a Roman Catholic and I didn’t want to go to Mass here. I was still wounded. My grandmother told me not to look at the priests or what they were doing, but to keep my ears listening to the Word of God at Mass, to receive Holy Communion and go to confession…to keep my eyes on God.

When the Holy Father was shot in Rome…I had heard from Hal Lindsey while going to a secular college that some day a pope would be injured or killed…I got down on my knees and began to pray the rosary for him. In 15 minutes after praying the rosary to Our Lady, my confusion and woundedness what I had suffered for 7 years was immediately healed, and my faith and soul were then re-positioned on the One, True God in the Catholic Church.

When we are in grave spiritual dangers in the Church, we turn to Mary to bring us back to Jesus. She is a most powerful Mother and praying the rosary is among the most powerful of prayers to protect or deliver us from erroneous thinking.

Do they pray the public rosary at that Catholic parish? It sounds very lukewarm. It does not sound orthodox.

Many times our impression of liberal Catholics is that yesterday this and that was a sin, but today it is not.

And this is why I have this beautiful statue of Mary, given us by my uncle, that was made in Italy in 1942…in my main area of my home. And the diocese I was in had a reputation that a number of the priests served the Marxists on bended knee, but many of their missions were destroyed.

 

[guanophore]

Of course I beg to disagree regarding Sola Scriptura (I think there has been a thread or two on that subject - as an invention and as a problem.

Yes, quite a few threads.

One HUGE problem historically is a lack of effectively teaching that Deposit to the people - an example today is the local DRE who denies we can know what the "Jesus events" were - including little things such as the resurrection and teaches modalism regarding the Trinity - as well as being very liberal.  A friend of mine showed me the Islamic prayer guide he was teaching people in RCIA.  My friend even complained to the bishop. Nothing was done.

Yes. This is definitely a HUGE problem today, just as it was at the time of the Reformation. Adding to, and altering the deposit is not the answer, though.

The biggest problem today (see above) is the infiltration of non-deposit teaching into the tradition, and laity equating tradition with Tradition. Sola Scriptura solves that problem very effectively.

I agree with your definition of the problem, but not the solution. Prima Scriptura, yes, but not Sola. When the Scripture is not understood from within the Sacred Deposit of faith, all kinds of errors result.

I am very suspicious of eisegesis of Catholic claims concerning Scripture that seem to be a huge stretch to prove, yet might actually be true (here we can drag in Mary’s perpetual virginity, which can be allowed- as a stretch- but is not outright eliminated or explicitly stated in Scripture).

I understand the concern but for Catholics, no “eisegesis” is necessary. The church never claimed that all the doctrines came from Scripture. On the contrary, all the Catholic doctrines were whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. The NT refelcts our doctrines, but was not the source of them. Jesus is the Source. No effort was ever made to make the NT a full compendium of the faith.

There is a lot of prejudice. One thing that has surprised me since coming onto CAF is the amount of prejudice I have against the Catholic Church. At the same time it is not what I thought it was, and I am not sure of what it is. Somehow we should work toward unity, but that unity cannot be a betrayal of the integrity of our walk with Christ.

Yes, I have learned a lot about myself since I came her too. You are right, we all need to work toward unity. That will be found when we are all “in Christ”, so as we strive to be in unity with Him, then the HS will provide the rest.

One thing I think we can agree on is that the bishops have really messed things up.

-Tina “Also Displaying a Talent for Really Messing Things Up” G

There were bishops that messed things up, but there are also very faithful bishops who have accurately held fast to the faith and taught it. It is not the office of the bishopric that is the problem, that it should be thrown out.

 

[KathleenGee]

I agree with Guanaphore with the recent threads on times surrounding the Reformation. These abuses were not happening everywhere. And in Germany, there were very sincere attempts by pastors and laity to turn things around. But the reform required changes to the office of the papacy as well…times changing…

Also, in my RCIA group, there was this couple, the wife and husband of different Protestant traditions. When we came to the topic of confession, and confessing to a priest…I had to laugh to myself seeing them look over at Fr and giving this expression…‘To him???’

I explained to them afterwards that all of us don’t necessarily like confession and having to reveal things…even the most mundane…but as one goes on, you get over the discomfort…and when the priest absolves you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,…then is when the presence of Christ and most profound holiness comes over you…separate from the priest.

Leaving confession, one feels totally whole and reconnected with the world around, and strengthened in Christ. The confessional is also a source for healing…so it is very obvious to us it is not the priest, but the sacrament of the divine life of Christ coming to us…

After all, on the evening of the Resurrection, our Lord gave His apostles the power to forgive sin…and this was to be passed down to their successors and to the common priest. It wasn’t too prominent at first because so many Christians had to hide their faith for fear of death…but in time the sacrament was further developed and more attended, especially with the Irish custom of not being seen by the priest by confessing in a small room or cubicle.

 

[mark_a]

James commands us to “confess sins one to another, so that you may be healed” but there is no indication that this is mandated to be to priests.

Has this been addressed from the Catholic point of view?

 

[JonNC]

A further thought: I don’t recall a Presbyterian minister ever saying “Your sins are forgiven you” - he would regard that as presumptuous, as that is between you and God.

-Tina “But I Also Have A Lousy Memory” G

Except, Tina, that Christ put the power to bind and loose sin in the hands of the Church. Certainly, it is God who forgives sins, but the pastor/confessor is empowered by Christ, as a servant of the Church, to grant absolution, as by Christ Himself.

Jon

 

[GKC]

Except, Tina, that Christ put the power to bind and loose sin in the hands of the Church. Certainly, it is God who forgives sins, but the pastor/confessor is empowered by Christ, as a servant of the Church, to grant absolution, as by Christ Himself.

Jon

So my late rector used to explain. He also used to say that he didn’t so much hear the confession, as overhear the confession, before God, before pronouncing the absolution.

GKC

 

[JonNC]

So my late rector used to explain. He also used to say that he didn’t so much hear the confession, as overhear the confession, before God, before pronouncing the absolution.

GKC

Yes. I’ve was taught that it isn’t the confession that’s a sacrament, but instead the Absolution. The wonderful thing about confession/Holy Absolution are the words of the pastor/confessor declaring the Gospel and stating, “as a called and ordained servant of Christ, and by His authority, I therefore forgive you all of your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”.

Jon

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes to these posts this pm, and that as sin is an offense against God, only God can forgive sin. Priests tell me when they hear confessions, they are most aware of their own sins.

 

[TinaG]

Here is a wonderful opportunity to slam Lutherans, Anglicans and Catholics all at one blow. Wow.

I ain’t gonna do it.

I think the anticipated response is that I will charge Lutherans and Anglicans with not having gone far enough away from corrupt Catholic practices in their (half-hearted) attempt to free themselves from superstition.

THAT IS NOT MY RESPONSE.

For one thing, the Orthodox practice Confession in a manner very similar to that of the Catholics. That would mean that the “corruption” predated 1054. I know the early church practiced public confession. If you have to confess your sins, far better to one priest than to EVERYBODY. The “myth” of corruption (using a technical term similar to storyline or relational argument, setting aside whether it is true in order to look at the concept) is that the corrupt happened solely in the Catholic Church, so anything occurring in the Orthodox is not a result of the ‘corruption’ in the Catholic Church.

For another thing, confession works. We approach it very differently and I think in a better way. I am recalling a very long talk I had with a pastor in which a number of things got amazingly straightened out. He commented later that it was the Lord, not him, speaking to me. A huge burden of sin and guilt was lifted off of me. I think the concepts of confession and absolution were at play, though not formalized. As the people of God, we are all priests, and this is at play to some degree in our lives. There is also something about the recognized leadership (pastors) that I think God honors regardless of denominational form. To some extent, if you start playing with electricity, there is power. From a Catholic perspective grace is at work and we among the Presbyterians deal with the same God and however imperfect our understanding is, God still works. Though we may be “in exile” we are still in the family, and Papa looks after His own.

For another thing, while we hold that the bind/loose thing is merely declarative, my instincts tell me there is a lot more to it than that. We hold that the acts of the sacraments are the result of faith performed in obedience, and so the faith is what is important, but that does not mean there is not power in the sacrament. For one thing, He told us to do it. For another, strange things happen at Communion time and there are stories that are extremely personal. I know someone who literally tasted meat and salty fluid when she took Communion for six months after her husband died (we downplay these things, because God is important, not sensory data or feelings). There can be a very powerful presence of the Lord at Communion or baptism. I imagine God can use the confession/absolution thing in a powerful way. He likes to meet His people.

We hardly ever use formulaic prayers or ritualistic language. We do not use a liturgy. I would not expect any sort of formal declaration of absolution. After some conversations it has snuck up on me that, hey, I am forgiven. Usually I have worked out how I won’t do THAT again and have employed measures, or am about to, so that I would have a hard time doing so.

-Tina “Rattling On Here” G

 

[roselily]

What does it mean?

That is -

**John 20

19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you.’20After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.21Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.’22When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’

Matthew 16

17And Jesus answered him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’

Acts of the Apostles 6
Seven Chosen to Serve

6Now during those days, when the disciples were increasing in number, the Hellenists complained against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution of food.2And the twelve called together the whole community of the disciples and said, ‘It is not right that we should neglect the word of God in order to wait at tables.3Therefore, friends, select from among yourselves seven men of good standing, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this task,4while we, for our part, will devote ourselves to prayer and to serving the word.’5What they said pleased the whole community, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, together with Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch.6They had these men stand before the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.**

 

[roselily]

What does it mean?

That is -

**John 20

19 When it was evening on that day, the first day of the week, and the doors of the house where the disciples had met were locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, ‘Peace be with you.’20After he said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.21Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.’22When he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit.23If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.’

Matthew 16

17And Jesus answered him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven.18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.’

Acts of the Apostles 6
Seven Chosen to Serve

6Now during those days, when the disciples were increasing in number, the Hellenists complained against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution of food.2And the twelve called together the whole community of the disciples and said, ‘It is not right that we should neglect the word of God in order to wait at tables.3Therefore, friends, select from among yourselves seven men of good standing, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may appoint to this task,4while we, for our part, will devote ourselves to prayer and to serving the word.’5What they said pleased the whole community, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and the Holy Spirit, together with Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch.6They had these men stand before the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them.

**

“All priest hood start at here.”

Christ have given the disciples he chose the power to forgiven sins

“Peter” “first priest of church”:angel1:

“Pater” “Ave Maria”
Bless God! :angel1:

 

[pjcsisabel]

Most probably yes because although it is very sad, we can’t deny that there was such blatant corruption in the Church.

Although I have no objection to Catholic theology’s teaching on indulgences I do think the clergy at the time may have abused it by actually “selling” the remission of punishment or the reduction of time in purgatory just to collect alms for the construction of churches.

As for Martin Luther, he was right by pointing out the rampant corruption in the Church such as the abuse of the indulgences but of course he was wrong by objecting to Catholic teachings such as the teaching of indulgences per se.

Although the rise of the Protestant Reformation did once again separated Christianity into different opposing brances, probably it had some good effects. The reformation, after all, gave rise to the counter-reformation, and therefore the Council of Trent which is considered to be one of the Church’s most important councils–it did bring significant changes in Church practices for the good.

 

[guanophore]

That’s correct. He was more concerned with pushing his own theological ideas than with the corruption within the Church. No matter how bad the Church got regarding the people within it (ie: the fakes and the weak in faith), the theology has always been true. Protestantism, on the other hand, is galaxies worth of different, man-corrupted theologies.

It might seem this way to us, looking back on the events, but Luther had no desire to leave the Church. He also did not see his “ideas” as being his own. He believed that his ideas came to him through “scripture alone” and were guided by the Holy Spirit. He pushed them because he believed that embracing the Truth of the Holy Scriptures fully and finally (with ulitimate authority) the Church would be purified of corruption and the gospel would reach the flock. It was not his intentio th separate, or to take any group of people out of the Church. He wanted the Church to accept his admonishments.

 

[guanophore]

You all realize that Luther was excommunicated before there was any “split” or attempt to split, right? He tried for years to reform from within but he was excommunicated because he would not recant at the Diet of Worms on matters which, up to that time, mostly had to do with abuses of doctrine, not doctrine itself. The Lutheran confessions did not start to be written until around 1530, which established reformed Lutheran doctrine–much later than his excommunication in 1521.

Luther was called upon at the Diet to recant all of his works, some of which contained no criticism of the hierarchy, or content that was doctrinally objectionable. He understandibly balked at why he would be required to recant these works.

But the main doctrinal position that spurred the excommunication after Worms was that of Sola Scriptura. He would not recognize or accept the authority of Sacred Tradition, because he could not separate it from the corrupted men who claimed to be the custodians of it. This position placed him outside of communion with the Church. He clung to his “unless you can show me from the Scriptures” without budging.

The CC is not a “bible based” church, whose identity is gleaned from extracting ideas from the Holy Writings. She is an incarnational creation of Christ, that is not dependent upon the written word, but upon HIs Spirit. This is how she began, 20 years before a word of the NT was ever written, and she was functioning fully for nearly 400 years before the canon of the NT was closed. The Church has the authoriity vested in persons, not in books, however holy.

Luther denied that authority (at least, unless it lined up with his understanding of the Scriptures).

 

[1voice]

“Cardinal” Joseph Ratzinger, The Meaning of Christian Brotherhood, pp. 87-88:

… there is no appropriate category in Catholic thought for the phenomenon of Protestantism today (one could say the same of the relationship to the separated churches of the East). It is obvious that the old category of ‘heresy’ is no longer of any value. Heresy, for Scripture and the early Church, includes the idea of a personal decision against the unity of the Church, and heresy’s characteristic is pertinacia, the obstinacy of him who persists in his own private way. This, however, cannot be regarded as an appropriate description of the spiritual situation of the Protestant Christian.In the course of a now centuries-old history, Protestantism has made an important contribution to the realization of Christian faith, fulfilling a positive function in the development of the Christian message and, above all, often giving rise to a sincere and profound faith in the individual non-Catholic Christian, whose separation from the Catholic affirmation has nothing to do with the pertinacia characteristic of heresy. Perhaps we may here invert a saying of St. Augustine’s: that an old schism becomes a heresy. The very passage of time alters the character of a division, so that an old division is something essentially different from a new one. Something that was once rightly condemned as heresy cannot later simply become true, but it can gradually develop its own positive ecclesial nature, with which the individual is presented as his church and in which he lives as a believer, not as a heretic. This organization of one group, however, ultimately has an effect on the whole. The conclusion is inescapable, then: Protestantism today is something different from heresy in the traditional sense, a phenomenon whose true theological place has not yet been determined.”

I see a couple of things in the above quote that jump right out at me…

First, The author is stating that Protestant churches are viewed by him in the same way that he views the Eastern Orthodox churches… and that neither is heretical in nature.

Secondly, I notice that the author says that Protestant Churches, by the leading of the Holy Spirit, both corporately and Individually, have achieved great things in the advancement of Christs rule on the Earth.

My observation is that all of these achievements, recognized as righteous and worthy of highest praise by the author, were accomplished without a Pope.

 

[guanophore]

I see a couple of things in the above quote that jump right out at me…

First, The author is stating that Protestant churches are viewed by him in the same way that the Eastern Orthodox churches are viewed by the RCC.

Secondly, I notice that the author says that Protestant Churches, by the leading of the Holy Spirit, both corporately and Individually, have achieved great things in the advancement of Christs rule on the Earth.

My observation is that all of these achievements, within the Protestant Communion, recognized as righteous and worthy of highest praise by the author, were accomplished without a Pope.

Yes. The HS is not bound by the structure put in place by Christ, but Jesus intends unity. This unity is found in adherance to the Truth. The HS can make the Truth come out of a donkeys’ mouth. Does that mean this is God’s intention for mankind?

He founded a Church, and placed authority and structure within that Church. It is only One Church.

Protestants stand in the tradition of Apollos, and are in need of Apostolic instruction and ordination (authorization from God’s appointed persons).