There is repeated precedent in the Old Testament for “the anointed of the Lord” to be removed by God - the sons of Aaron who offered strange fire, the sons of Eli in 1 Samuel, the warnings in Isaiah and throughout the prophets concerning false pastors and false prophets. There are repeated woes and warnings against those who plundered His people - how can they NOT apply to false ministers, even those in positions instituted by God, Who at one time ripped the whole nation of Israel from its land and cast it into exile? He who did not spare the branches then surely will not spare us, yet to my ears it seems to Catholic Church still proclaims itself secure in its position, despite all that it has done and is doing. How can it avoid the judgement of God? And the Jewish priests were rejected because they rejected Christ, and Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, some say because of that rejection? How can you so sure, seemingly so smug, that that authority continues when the pattern given to us “for our instruction” would indicate God comes down hard and fast on the corrupt leaders of the Church, going so far as to rip them dramatically from their authority, or allowing them to worsen in order to cut them down in greater wrath?Yes. The HS is not bound by the structure put in place by Christ, but Jesus intends unity. This unity is found in adherance to the Truth. The HS can make the Truth come out of a donkeys’ mouth. Does that mean this is God’s intention for mankind?
He founded a Church, and placed authority and structure within that Church. It is only One Church.
Protestants stand in the tradition of Apollos, and are in need of Apostolic instruction and ordination (authorization from God’s appointed persons).
Yes.Code:There is repeated precedent in the Old Testament for "the anointed of the Lord" to be removed by God - the sons of Aaron who offered strange fire, the sons of Eli in 1 Samuel, the warnings in Isaiah and throughout the prophets concerning false pastors and false prophets. There are repeated woes and warnings against those who plundered His people - how can they NOT apply to false ministers, even those in positions instituted by God, Who at one time ripped the whole nation of Israel from its land and cast it into exile?
You are mixing your apples and oranges. This statement is made to individuals, not to the Church. She is impeccable.He who did not spare the branches then surely will not spare us, yet to my ears it seems to Catholic Church still proclaims itself secure in its position, despite all that it has done and is doing.
The judgment of God will surely fall upon all who sin, and persist in sin.How can it avoid the judgement of God?
We have a different understanding of the nature of “Church”. Catholics are not “smug”, we just accept the understanding of the Church that was passed down to us from the Aposltes. We understand that no persons sin, however grievious, can stain God, whose spirit animates the Church and gives her life.And the Jewish priests were rejected because they rejected Christ, and Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD, some say because of that rejection? How can you so sure, seemingly so smug, that that authority continues when the pattern given to us “for our instruction” would indicate God comes down hard and fast on the corrupt leaders of the Church, going so far as to rip them dramatically from their authority, or allowing them to worsen in order to cut them down in greater wrath?
Indeed he can, and has. But the stones crying out does not negate the authority he put in place, and promised to preserve “until the end of the age”.God can raise up stones to praise Him, let along jackasses (which explains some successful ministers), while condemning those “in right office” most severely.
I agree.Yes. I know we only have one God, the Lord is one.
–yes, perhaps have different views, it is so. But we ought to be one family.
29Jesus answered, ‘The first is, “Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one;30you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.”31The second is this, “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these.’
—Mark 12
I was always certain there is all Christians are brothers sisters.
I would like to recommend the following thread to find out what Catholics think about that verse you mention.I read in one of the gospels somewhere … Where the disciples came to Jesus complaining that others… not part of their group were ministering to the people in His name… Jesus said that it was a good thing and not bad in any way.
Are you saying that it is irrelevant where one connects with Christ in community?I agree.
Orthodox, Protestant, Roman Catholic …We all believe in the same Savior and the same Father.
… In my mind … that one fact trumps every single difference. He is the vine in every Christian tradition. I read in one of the gospels somewhere … Where the disciples came to Jesus complaining that others… not part of their group were ministering to the people in His name… Jesus said that it was a good thing and not bad in any way.
Samaritans were shunned by every devout Jew at the time … yet Jesus chose an outcast to prove that it is righteous adherence to his concept of love that Jesus honors … not religious affiliation.
“If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me.” … and that… We all do.
I think the most relevant factor is the simple truth that Jesus spoke… "Wherever two or three are gathered in my name … there I Am. I think that Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict, affirms my belief when he declares that great advances in the kingdom of Christ on Earth have come through the Protestant CommunionAre you saying that it is irrelevant where one connects with Christ in community?
Yes, but that is not all he says. Jesus, and therefore His Apostles, taught that we are to be in unity - to be one.I think the most relevant factor is the simple truth that Jesus spoke… "Wherever two or three are gathered in my name … there I Am. I think that Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict, affirms my belief when he declares that great advances in the kingdom of Christ on Earth have come through the Protestant Communion
Not according to what this protestant missionary discovered. Why don’t you read it and post what you think about it:I think the most relevant factor is the simple truth that Jesus spoke… "Wherever two or three are gathered in my name … there I Am. I think that Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict, affirms my belief when he declares that great advances in the kingdom of Christ on Earth have come through the Protestant Communion
They will know that we are Christians by our love.Yes, but that is not all he says. Jesus, and therefore His Apostles, taught that we are to be in unity - to be one.
While we can affirm that such gatherings reverence Christ as Lord, we must at the same time address the fact that these ecclesial communities exist in various degrees of deficiency. All have lost parts of the One Faith that was passed down to us from the Apostles.
I am uncomfortable with the notion that, somehow, Christ approves (I may be misinterpreting your use of the term “overcome”) of the divisions between us, contrary to His call that all may be one. While I agree that the Holy Spirit does not confine Himself to one institutional communion (again contrary to His words that you mention above), it still seems that He wants us to stand together as the Church Militant.They will know that we are Christians by our love.
Again, it is clear from what Pope Benedict states, and I concur, that Christ has overcome the differences. His love has prevailed.
I think that all of the above, that you quote, is encompassed in St Paul’s statement that “the greatest of these is love”.I am uncomfortable with the notion that, somehow, Christ approves (I may be misinterpreting your use of the term “overcome”) of the divisions between us, contrary to His call that all may be one. While I agree that the Holy Spirit does not confine Himself to one institutional communion (again contrary to His words that you mention above), it still seems that He wants us to stand together as the Church Militant.
Ephesians 4 1I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, 2with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, 3eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Jon