Was the universe really created in time?

[Bookcat]

Of course I am putting timeless God in my box of ideas and it doesn’t fit. It is incoherent and illogical hence it cannot exist.

Hummm so Bahman is the measure of reality now?

So long as you keep trying think of God as if God were not God but a creature in time - or keep trying to make God conform to your personal ideas - rather than approaching God as God - you will keep running into the same difficulties.

 

[hu324b]

Time is a measurement of motion in the universe - no motion no time.

 

[Bahman]

Hummm so Bahman is the measure of reality now?

So long as you keep trying think of God as if God were not God but a creature in time - or keep trying to make God conform to your personal ideas - rather than approaching God as God - you will keep running into the same difficulties.

That is not me which is the measure of reality but the logic which we can all agree upon. You don’t want to accept the consequence of a simple logical argument.

 

[Bookcat]

That is not me which is the measure of reality but the logic which we can all agree upon. You don’t want to accept the consequence of a simple logical argument.

I have answered - you simply keep repeating the same incorrect premise.

Trying to think of God as a creature in time - not as God.

 

[Bahman]

I have answered - you simply keep repeating the same incorrect premise.

Trying to think of God as a creature in time - not as God.

My premise is not wrong: Nothing to something is a change. What is wrong with this simple premise?

 

[hu324b]

Where was God before the universe was created?

 

[Bookcat]

My premise is not wrong: Nothing to something is a change. What is wrong with this simple premise?

A change in what?

If there is not anything to change (nothing) - what is changed?

You can only change something that is already.

 

[Bahman]

A change in what?

If there is not anything to change (nothing) - what is changed?

You can only change something that is already.

A change in existence. Nothing exists before act creation and something exists after. This is very definition of creation act.

 

[Bookcat]

A change in existence. Nothing exists before act creation and something exists after.

Again as I noted you cannot change what does not exist.

If there not a thing that exists - there is not a thing that can change.

You can only change something that is already.

Yes creation is “ex nihil”.

Such is not a “change in something that exists” - it is simply creation.

God is not “changing” something - God is creating.

 

[Bookcat]

Where was God before the universe was created?

There was no “where” before creation was created.

Space was created with creation.

God IS.

 

[John_Martin]

time begins when change in being begins.
It is a measure of “before to now to after”.
Creation is the beginning of being, so there is no “before” creation, therefore no time, until creation begins to change, to move (to be moved). With the first movement of the created creation there was suddenly a before, a now, and a not yet. That is the place of time.

 

[oldcelt]

You are displaying a very superficial (physicality only) reasoning of the human person and superficial reasoning of the essence, the knowledge, and power of God.

CCC is speaking in the same way as the Bible (such as Exodus 3) when saying Moses spoke face to face with God:He was “afraid to look at God”, i.e. “afraid to look at the Angel of the Lord”

And from the new Testament,
Seeing the “one whom he has sent”, whether the Angel of the Lord, or Jesus himself, is seeing and hearing him face to face. You will never see his essence with your eyes. My Church and I are one in understanding, knowing the human person has a soul that is not perceptible to the eyes, ears, touch or thoughts, but it is spiritual, capable of being in the presence of God, who is Spirit.

I’m afraid you and I interpret the English language differently. If the CCC would have wanted to to say that it was as in thus and such…they would have said so. You are absolutely incorrect in what you are saying.

 

[John_Martin]

I’m afraid you and I interpret the English language differently. If the CCC would have wanted to to say that it was as in thus and such…they would have said so. You are absolutely incorrect in what you are saying.

I am in very good company in my “incorrectness”. You do not realize it, but in abandoning your Catholic faith you have distanced yourself from understanding that is from God. It is impossible for you without returning. In fact, your own quote from the CCC agreed with me, but you cannot see it.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . understanding that is from God. . .

We grow in Christ through our acts of charity. It is nowhere better revealed than in the teachings of the Catholic Church, founded upon the rock of Peter by God Himself.
This sort of language may put some people off, but it’s the truth.

 

[Brendan]

I know I am somewhat late to this thread, but where was it established that time is actually required for change.

I will grant that the natural philosophical dimension known as ‘time’ is how we experientially measure change.

But where was it established *a priori *that change REQUIRES time.

What I have seen so far seems very much based on an argument from ignorance. A measurement of change other than time is not known, therefore time is the only measurement of change.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

A change in existence. Nothing exists before act creation and something exists after. This is very definition of creation act.

Playing the obstructionist as usual I see. A thing that is created ( i.e. the universe ) comes into existence from no prior existing matter or time. Only God can create something from no prior existing matter or time.

Linus2nd

 

[oldcelt]

I am in very good company in my “incorrectness”. You do not realize it, but in abandoning your Catholic faith you have distanced yourself from understanding that is from God. It is impossible for you without returning. In fact, your own quote from the CCC agreed with me, but you cannot see it.

That was a nice try…but …English is English. Where you got your “understanding” I have no idea. Let’s hear some others deny what is written by your own faith.

John

 

[Bahman]

Again as I noted you cannot change what does not exist.

If there not a thing that exists - there is not a thing that can change.

You can only change something that is already.

Yes creation is “ex nihil”.

Such is not a “change in something that exists” - it is simply creation.

God is not “changing” something - God is creating.

I didn’t say that you change nothingness to nothingness. I said that the act creation cause existence. There was nothing before act creation hence we are dealing with a change. This act deals with a change since there were not me and you here discussing if there was no act of creation. I think this is common sense, no creation act lead to nothingness and act creation lead to existence, hence the act creation differentiates between non-existence and existence hence we are dealing with a change.

 

[Bahman]

Playing the obstructionist as usual I see. A thing that is created ( i.e. the universe ) comes into existence from no prior existing matter or time. Only God can create something from no prior existing matter or time.

Linus2nd

Do you agree that there was nothing before act creation? Sure yeah. There you are with creation after act. Hence we have two states, there was nothing and then there was something mediated by act. Hence we need time at the very moment creation. You can argue that time and creation go hand by hand after the act of creation but I am arguing that you need time at the point of creation since you are dealing with a change. That is the difference that I see and you don’t.

 

[Bahman]

time begins when change in being begins.
It is a measure of “before to now to after”.
Creation is the beginning of being, so there is no “before” creation, therefore no time, until creation begins to change, to move (to be moved). With the first movement of the created creation there was suddenly a before, a now, and a not yet. That is the place of time.

You are contradiction yourself. Time must exist at the point of creation if we are dealing with a change in existence. All you are saying is that time exist after the point yet accepting that time is needed for any change and we are dealing with a change at the point of creation hence time is needed at the very point of creation.