Was the Virgin Mary wise?

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I always think of “wisdom” as something transcendent, something beyond being smart or intelligent or being heavily educated. Think of those pearls of wisdom that are sometimes uttered by young children or adults with little formal education.

I talked this over with my mom (good person to go to: mothers have to be wise to handle their kids lovingly!), and her take on it as “she was wise because she was loving”. Isn’t there something in the gospel about how the greatest of the three theological virtues is love? Mary likely had to be wise: she was the mom to a kid who was not just a precocious boy, but also God Incarnate. Ordinary run of the mill kids can be the types that you need to think three steps ahead of them so they aren’t getting themself into trouble, now take a Divine Nature and attach it to that innocently rambunctious kid. Your “hey, what are you doing??” moments (parents reading this thread will know what I mean…) have multiplied.
 
Nate13 said:
Wisdom is the ability to see the big picture of what life is all about. This could require extensive knowledge but that is not necessary. So for us Mary would be wise because she is the great example of someone who understood what life was all about and lived it perfectly. Since by your understanding she was pretty much duped by a myth, and gave birth to someone you have to consider mentally insane since he believed he was God, it makes sense you would not see her as wise.

Actually I believe getting caught up in “knowledge” is a hindrance towards being wise. You get too caught up in individual facts and don’t even stop to ask why they are of importance.
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To be honest that sounds like an excuse for intellectual laziness to me.

That or wisdom is worthless.
 
Matrix_Refugee said:
**I always think of “wisdom” as something transcendent, something beyond being smart or intelligent or being heavily educated. Think of those pearls of wisdom that are sometimes uttered by young children **or adults with little formal education.

I talked this over with my mom (good person to go to: mothers have to be wise to handle their kids lovingly!), and her take on it as “she was wise because she was loving”. Isn’t there something in the gospel about how the greatest of the three theological virtues is love? Mary likely had to be wise: she was the mom to a kid who was not just a precocious boy, but also God Incarnate. Ordinary run of the mill kids can be the types that you need to think three steps ahead of them so they aren’t getting themself into trouble, now take a Divine Nature and attach it to that innocently rambunctious kid. Your “hey, what are you doing??” moments (parents reading this thread will know what I mean…) have multiplied.
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This seems like more support for (the Catholic definition of) wisdom being worthless idea.

But I admit I’m biased:shrug:
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
To be honest that sounds like an excuse for intellectual laziness to me.

That or wisdom is worthless.
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Haha I would consider it to be intellectual efficiency. Wisdom is finding the best way to use the knowledge you have. Knowing the best way to use knowledge requires knowing what your end goal is or in other words like I said before, the big picture. A smart person who squanders the knowledge they have towards goals of little value is foolish. A smart person who uses the knowledge they have towards greater ends of great value with efficiency is wise.

Being wise doesn’t require great knowledge though. A person who used the smallest amount of knowledge to achieve the greatest goals would be incredibly wise. That person would be wiser than an incredibly smart person who was only able to achieve the same goals, because they did so in a more efficient manner. Does this make any sense?

The person who gets it right the first time is more wise than the person that has to fail 10 times before they learn. If Mary was born without original sin and did not have to time and time again stumble and pick herself up from sin that would make her incredibly wise.
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
I have no interest in teaching Catholic theology.
But I can certainly point out the holes in it.

Such as the fact that the Catholic version of the Virgin Mary is defined not by what qualities she has, but rather what she lacks.
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Why do you keep doing this to yourself ?

What defines our Blessed Mother most of all , is Her motherhood. **Motherhood is a quality **. And that quality was elevated supremely when She became the Mother of God. Christ thought so much of Her motherhood that, on the Cross, He gave Her to each one of us as a mother ( even to agnostics - :yup:).

You say she is lacking , but God through the Angel Gabriel says she is full of grace.

Go ahead and disagree with God if you want to , though I can’t help but wonder why you feel the need to do it here … :hmmm:

In my limited opinion, your (unqualified) comments lead towards instigation . I don’t think they can merit any further answer on my part .

I do wish you well though.
 
Nate13 said:
Haha I would consider it to be intellectual efficiency. Wisdom is finding the best way to use the knowledge you have. Knowing the best way to use knowledge requires knowing what your end goal is or in other words like I said before, the big picture. A smart person who squanders the knowledge they have towards goals of little value is foolish. A smart person who uses the knowledge they have towards greater ends of great value with efficiency is wise.

Being wise doesn’t require great knowledge though. A person who used the smallest amount of knowledge to achieve the greatest goals would be incredibly wise. That person would be wiser than an incredibly smart person who was only able to achieve the same goals, because they did so in a more efficient manner. Does this make any sense?

The person who gets it right the first time is more wise than the person that has to fail 10 times before they learn. If Mary was born without original sin and did not have to time and time again stumble and pick herself up from sin that would make her incredibly wise.
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If the Virgin Mary did not struggle with sin then there is nothing impressive about her denying it. Moreover if her actions were pre-ordained (all part of God’s plan) then its questionable whether she had free will at all (making her robot-like).
 
Some of the saints say that Wisdom, portrayed as a female in the book of Proverbs, is a type or prefigurement of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

If you seek her like silver,
and like hidden treasures search her out,
Then will you understand the fear of the LORD;
the knowledge of God you will find;
(Proverbs 2:4-5)
Happy the one who finds wisdom,
the one who gains understanding!
Her profit is better than profit in silver,
and better than gold is her revenue;
She is more precious than corals,
and no treasure of yours can compare with her.
Long life is in her right hand,
in her left are riches and honor;
Her ways are pleasant ways,
and all her paths are peace;
She is a tree of life** to those who grasp her,
and those who hold her fast are happy
(Proverbs 3:13-18)*

I tend to agree.

Mary is the tree of life, bearing the fruit of her womb, life himself, Jesus.

-Tim-
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Since the Catholic Church defines sin as any thought, action, or feeling displeasing to God, Mary’s utterly sinless nature means she was only capable of thinking, feeling, and acting within a very narrow range.
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No, this is not how the Catholic Church defines sin.

Lustfull thoughts enter our minds all the time. But if we do not willfully entertain them, and if we try to resist them, they are not sins. Doubts and feelings enter our mind all the time. I had a dream about sex the other night. It was not within my control, and I wished that I hadn’t had it, and so it is not a sin.

These are trials and temptations, but not sins. The intent of the heart defines sin. Some things, even thoughts and doubts that enter our minds, are beyond our control. These are not sins.

It is extremely frustrating as a Catholic, to be told that my Church teaches something which it does not. Mary was sinless, yes, but she was more. She was pure. Her will was perfectly conformed to her Son’s will, and so she never desired anthing but to please God. And to please God is not a “Narrow range.”

It is slavery to sin that is a narrow range. A bunch of animals who can’t control themselves - that’s not a “Broad range of behavior” - that slavery. I know because I was like that for 33 years.

-Tim-
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
If the Virgin Mary did not struggle with sin then there is nothing impressive about her denying it. Moreover if her actions were pre-ordained (all part of God’s plan) then its questionable whether she had free will at all (making her robot-like).
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haha well we had Adam and Eve who were born without sin and look how easy it was for them to sin. Anyways I won’t bother responding to the rest of your complaint there because there are plenty of other threads that go into that. You stopped complaining about what being “wise” means so I’ll assume the point has been made.
 
TimothyH said:
No, this is not how the Catholic Church defines sin.

Lustfull thoughts enter our minds all the time. But if we do not willfully entertain them, and if we try to resist them, they are not sins. Doubts and feelings enter our mind all the time. I had a dream about sex the other night. It was not within my control, and I wished that I hadn’t had it, and so it is not a sin.

These are trials and temptations, but not sins. The intent of the heart defines sin. Some things, even thoughts and doubts that enter our minds, are beyond our control. These are not sins.

It is extremely frustrating as a Catholic, to be told that my Church teaches something which it does not. Mary was sinless, yes, but she was more. She was pure. Her will was perfectly conformed to her Son’s will, and so she never desired anthing but to please God. And to please God is not a “Narrow range.”

It is slavery to sin that is a narrow range. A bunch of animals who can’t control themselves - that’s not a “Broad range of behavior” - that slavery. I know because I was like that for 33 years.

-Tim-
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If she never desired anything but to please God, then she was never really tempted, and her sinless nature was by design, rather than any mental discipline or strength of will that Mary herself had.

Moreover, saying that the Virgin Mary’s will perfectly matched her Son’s (guiding) will, is essentially the same as saying Mary had no will of her own.
 
Nate13 said:
haha well we had Adam and Eve who were born without sin and look how easy it was for them to sin. Anyways I won’t bother responding to the rest of your complaint there because there are plenty of other threads that go into that. You stopped complaining about what being “wise” means so I’ll assume the point has been made.
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Yes, I am willing to accept that the Catholic definition of wisdom, has nothing to do with intelligence or knewledge. That according to Catholic theology wisdom is merely a kind of faith substituting for real knewledge or understanding.
 
Nate13 said:
haha well we had Adam and Eve who were born without sin and look how easy it was for them to sin. Anyways I won’t bother responding to the rest of your complaint there because there are plenty of other threads that go into that. You stopped complaining about what being “wise” means so I’ll assume the point has been made.
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Yes, more evidence that if we are designed, its not an intelligent design:D

For instance, women can easily die in childbirth.
This is** not **an intelligent design (assuming that the designer was benevolent and all-powerful).
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Yes, more evidence that if we are designed, its not an intelligent design.

For instance, women can easily die in childbirth.
This is** not **an intelligent design (assuming that the designer was benevolent and all-powerful).
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How would you exclude all misfortunes?
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
Yes, I am willing to accept that the Catholic definition of wisdom, has nothing to do with intelligence or knewledge. That according to Catholic theology wisdom is merely a kind of faith substituting for real knowledge or understanding.
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CCC **50 **By natural reason man can know God with certainty, on the basis of his works.
 
AngryAtheist8 said:
If she never desired anything but to please God, then she was never really tempted, and her sinless nature was by design, rather than any mental discipline or strength of will that Mary herself had.

Moreover, saying that the Virgin Mary’s will perfectly matched her Son’s (guiding) will, is essentially the same as saying Mary had no will of her own.
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See if this analogy helps you, Angry.

Imagine a woman living in a cabin in the woods on a hill. From her elevated position she can see the origin of a river. A town is dumping sewage into the river. Downstream there is a family living near the river. From their position they cannot see that a town is dumping sewage into the river, so they drink from that river.

However, the woman, from her vantage point, can see that the river is polluted–and **while she certainly has the free will to drink from the river–has no desire to do so.
**
That, I think, is a wonderful way to portray the fact that there is no contradiction between having free will and never sinning.
 
The wisdom literature of the Bible (Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Job etc) all point to the fear of the LORD as the beginning of wisdom (Pr.1:7)

Fear of course isnt slavish abject fear but a proper respect and awe of God.

Clearly, Mary is supremely wise 👍
 
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