Was the Virgin Mary wise?

[tonyrey]

I have never been comfortable with the idea of collective guilt and punishment. And collective guilt and punishment for a single individual crime (eating from the Tree of Knewledge) strikes me as being essentially unjust.

A false interpretation of original sin…

 

[PRmerger]

If the Virgin Mary did not have the normal human impulse towards sin, then there was nothing remarkable about her resisting it. Because she was never really tempted.

She was “tempted” just like anyone else. She just has a unique perspective where she can see what the sin does.

Are you saying since I have never been tempted to commit adultery, there is nothing remarkable about the fact that I have been married for 21 years?

 

[PRmerger]

I have never been comfortable with the idea of collective guilt and punishment.
And collective guilt and punishment for a single individual crime (eating from the Tree of Knewledge) strikes me as being essentially unjust.

You seem to be quite misinformed about what Original Sin is, Angry.

There is no “collective guilt and punishment” for a single individual crime.

Perhaps, before you post in a thread where knowledgeable Catholics are in dialogue with you, you ought to read up a bit on Catholicism.

 

[PRmerger]

According to Catholicism virtually everything we do is touched by sin.

Please cite the teaching that says this.

Even if we never get much of a chance to do anything (such as those who die as babies or very young children) we are still touched by Original Sin.

You seem to be woefully ignorant about Original Sin. It is not actual sin.

Therefore sinning is living, and living is Sinning.

You also seem to be unaware that it’s quite possible for a person to live without sinning, according to the Church.

That is, it is part of the deposit of faith that has constantly been taught that with the grace of Christ, we can overcome sin. It would be antithetical to Christianity to claim otherwise.

I see there’s a reason why you’re an atheist. You’ve never been introduced to Catholicism.

And I have no desire to experience the kind of living death that a sinless life would seem to imply. Cut off from all normal human passions…

So said the drug addict, too.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

A false interpretation of original sin…

You just don’t like it because I pointed out the obvious without any buts to soften the apparent cruelty of God the Father.

 

[PRmerger]

You just don’t like it because I pointed out the obvious without any buts to soften the **apparent **cruelty of God the Father.

It is curious that you, an atheist, included in your choice of words that which is bolded.

You do get, then, that what seems to be cruel is only “apparent.”

Just like a father is “apparently” cruel when he holds his son down in the Emergency Unit to receive an IV. Or when a father is “apparently” cruel in taking his son to get immunized. Or when a father is “apparently” cruel for not letting his son drive until he’s 16.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

An unsubstantiated assertion.

Are we totally unaffected by what our ancestors have done?

Dramatic but fabricated!

Please specify precisely what you mean.…

Virtually everything good about being human is considered a sin.

Pride in one’s accomplishments,** Lusting** after something (making you strive for a goal), being able to enjoy the spoils of your victories (Gluttony), feeling free to get angry over wrongs done to you (Wrath). The list goes on and on.

Its impossible to really live without experiencing these feelings that are classified as sins. Without them, we would have (virtually) no emotions at all.

 

[tonyrey]

You just don’t like it because I pointed out the obvious without any buts to soften the apparent cruelty of God the Father.

It’s not a question of liking but of correcting your error:

CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does **not **have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants.

 

[Wardog]

Virtually everything good about being human is considered a sin.

Pride in one’s accomplishments,** Lusting** after something (making you strive for a goal), being able to enjoy the spoils of your victories (Gluttony), feeling free to get angry over wrongs done to you (Wrath). The list goes on and on.

Its impossible to really live without experiencing these feelings that are classified as sins. Without them, we would have (virtually) no emotions at all.

I have different definitions of sin. Excessive Pride is a sin. Gluttony is not enjoying the spoils of your victories, it is excessive eating; Wrath is excessive anger over wrongs, imagined or real; it is counterproductive;
And the list goes on…
I have experienced all of these sins; can’t say that doing so helped me to really live; I argue that quite the opposite, these held me back.

 

[tonyrey]

Virtually everything good about being human is considered a sin.

A generalisation which remains unsubstantiated…

Pride in one’s accomplishments.

Not a sin!

Lusting after something (making you strive for a goal)

Distortion of the meaning of lust…

, being able to enjoy the spoils of your victories (Gluttony)

Distortion of the meaning of gluttony…

feeling free to get angry over wrongs done to you (Wrath).

Justified anger - exemplified by Jesus with Pharisees - is not a sin.

The list goes on and on.

Such as?

Its impossible to really live without experiencing these feelings that are classified as sins. Without them, we would have (virtually) no emotions at all.

They are not even sins!

 

[PRmerger]

Virtually everything good about being human is considered a sin.

Pride in one’s accomplishments,** Lusting** after something (making you strive for a goal), being able to enjoy the spoils of your victories (Gluttony), feeling free to get angry over wrongs done to you (Wrath). The list goes on and on.

The more I read of your posts the more I am heartened. You are going to be Catholic yet!

The only reason you’re not already is because you haven’t a whit of a clue what Catholicism is or what she teaches.

Once you actually know her, you’re going to love her.

 

[tonyrey]

I have different definitions of sin. Excessive Pride is a sin. Gluttony is not enjoying the spoils of your victories, it is excessive eating; Wrath is excessive anger over wrongs, imagined or real; it is counterproductive;
And the list goes on…
I have experienced all of these sins; can’t say that doing so helped me to really live; I argue that quite the opposite, these held me back.

Now I understand what you are waging war against…

 

[AngryAtheist8]

What about Sts. Gabriel, Raphael and Michael?

How is it that they weren’t “set up to fail”?

We honestly know very little about angels, even according to Catholic theology.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Originally Posted by AngryAtheist8
I have never been comfortable with the idea of collective guilt and punishment. And collective guilt and punishment for a single individual crime (eating from the Tree of Knewledge) strikes me as being essentially unjust.

A false interpretation of original sin…

Really

How so?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

She was “tempted” just like anyone else. She just has a unique perspective where she can see what the sin does.

Are you saying since I have never been tempted to commit adultery, there is nothing remarkable about the fact that I have been married for 21 years?

No, I don’t know enough about your individual circumstances to know if its remarkable or not.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

You seem to be quite misinformed about what Original Sin is, Angry.

There is no “collective guilt and punishment” for a single individual crime.

Perhaps, before you post in a thread where knowledgeable Catholics are in dialogue with you, you ought to read up a bit on Catholicism.

Then where did Original Sin come from?
Was it not the result of the actions of 2 individuals (Adam and Eve)?

Individuals who were by their very nature the 2 most ignorant humans that have ever lived?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Please cite the teaching that says this.

You seem to be woefully ignorant about Original Sin. It is not actual sin.

**You also seem to be unaware that it’s quite possible for a person to live without sinning, according to the Church. **
That is, it is part of the deposit of faith that has constantly been taught that with the grace of Christ, we can overcome sin. It would be antithetical to Christianity to claim otherwise.

I see there’s a reason why you’re an atheist. You’ve never been introduced to Catholicism.

So said the drug addict, too.

How often have representatives of the Catholic Church said that we are all sinners?

 

[PRmerger]

We honestly know very little about angels, even according to Catholic theology.

You are absolutely right about that.

But the existence of angels tells you that God did not set them up to fail.

We’re good, then?

 

[AngryAtheist8]

It is curious that you, an atheist, included in your choice of words that which is bolded.

You do get, then, that what seems to be cruel is only “apparent.”

Just like a father is “apparently” cruel when he holds his son down in the Emergency Unit to receive an IV. Or when a father is “apparently” cruel in taking his son to get immunized. Or when a father is “apparently” cruel for not letting his son drive until he’s 16.

This makes me laugh.

Let me speak bluntly then.

Condemning all of humanity for the first major mistakes of the first two humans was an act of cruelty (assuming it ever occurred).

Adam and Eve were by their very nature ignorant and inexperienced, their punishment (exile for them both, and servitude and the perils of childbirth for Eve specifically) was out of proportion to their crime (eating forbidden fruit).
The fact that all their descendants must also be punished in the same way is completely unjust, because none of them played a part in the crime. Punishing people for crimes that they have not committed, is the height of injustice.

If you or I treated people like God in the Old Testament we would be called monsters.
And we would deserve it too.

-AngryAtheist8

P.S. I highlighted the wrong word by mistake.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I have different definitions of sin. Excessive Pride is a sin. Gluttony is not enjoying the spoils of your victories, it is excessive eating; Wrath is excessive anger over wrongs, imagined or real; it is counterproductive;
And the list goes on…
I have experienced all of these sins; can’t say that doing so helped me to really live; I argue that quite the opposite, these held me back.

No, Pride itself is a sin, all the Catholics I have ever talked to (except for a few very liberal ones) have been pretty definitive in that regard.