Was there a point that only God existed?

[Xpi22]

As you know, a point is imaginary. With God there is no point. We say, humanly, that God always was. We use terms like “before” creation. Creation is matter, energy, time and space, creatures, souls, life.There is no before. No time, no space. God IS. That is a grammatical period. Comprehensible? No. To understand would be to understand God. Not possible. When we say that God IS, we don’t know what we are talking about. When we talk about God we are not talking about God. We come to God only through His Word made flesh, Jesus. There is no other way. We can not bypass the Sacred Humanity of Jesus Who dwelt in time and space, to attain to God Who is wholly Other.

 

[AlNg]

Which I took to not refer to His time on earth, but after it. Jesus’ divinity is not bound to time.

Is the glorified body of Jesus bound by time ?

 

[Fauken]

Is the glorified body of Jesus bound by time ?

I can’t say, but again and must emphasize, He cannot do the logically impossible.

 

[Gorgias]

I didn’t think that it should be embarrassing for a Catholic to read and appreciate what is written in holy Scripture and to believe what is stated in the Nicene Creed.

Neither do I. On the other hand, misinterpreting and failing to appreciate what the Church teaches is regrettable.

Your bullying techniques and your feeble attempts to prove that Scripture is wrong will fail.

In more than one place in Holy Scripture,
as cited above, God is revealed to have taken on a material form which was observed and duly noted.

What you’ve failed to observe or note is that, for the ancient Israelites, a vision of an angel was a vision of God Himself. Look again at your citation from Judges:

When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that he was the Angel of the Lord. And Manoah said to his wife, we shall surely die, because we have seen God

See what I mean? Manoah sees an angel, and replies “we have seen God.” That’s the cultural understanding which you’re not appreciating here.

 

[Gorgias]

If an angel is pure spirit, how can a human see him?

God gives him the ability to be seen by humans. He doesn’t become human, or have a body in the way that a human has a body.

 

[AlNg]

What you’ve failed to observe or note is that, for the ancient Israelites, a vision of an angel was a vision of God Himself .

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved (Genesis 32:30).

Where does the glorified body of Jesus sit? Is the glorified body of Jesus within spacetime or above spacetime?

 

[Fauken]

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved (Genesis 32:30).

We already discussed this. There’s nothing that says that’s actually God as opposed to an angel. Even the commentary I listed says it’s either or.

Where does the glorified body of Jesus sit? Is the glorified body of Jesus within spacetime or above spacetime?

If you’re trying to argue that Jesus’ glorified body is beyond space-time and thus doesn’t need space to be held, that’s not going to work either, because again, Jesus’ body, glorified or not, is corporeal and cannot be where there is no space to hold it.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

What you’ve failed to observe or note is that, for the ancient Israelites, a vision of an angel was a vision of God Himself .

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved ([Genesis 32:30]

I’d ask you to look just a couple verses earlier:
“Jacob was left there alone. Then a man* wrestled with him until the break of dawn. When the man saw that he could not prevail over him, he struck Jacob’s hip at its socket, so that Jacob’s socket was dislocated as he wrestled with him.” (Gen 32:25-6)

So, it was a man with whom Jacob wrestled. And yet, he claims to have seen God. Hmm… what could that mean? An angel – that is, a messenger of God – perhaps?

Where does the glorified body of Jesus sit? Is the glorified body of Jesus within spacetime or above spacetime?

Where was Jesus during the 40 days after His resurrection? Always within spacetime? Or outside of spacetime?

Jesus’ body, glorified or not, is corporeal and cannot be where there is no space to hold it.

I’m not certain I agree. I think that I would say that Jesus’ glorified body transcends spacetime, and is not bound by it.

 

[Richca]

AlNg:

Where does the glorified body of Jesus sit? Is the glorified body of Jesus within spacetime or above spacetime?

Jesus’ body, glorified or not, is corporeal and cannot be where there is no space to hold it.

I’m not certain I agree. I think that I would say that Jesus’ glorified body transcends spacetime, and is not bound by it.

St Paul says that Jesus ‘ascended above all the heavens that He might fill all things’ (Eph. 4:10). I favor Gorgias’ opinion that Jesus’ glorified body transcends created space and time and thus it can be beyond it. Aquinas addresses this point in the Summa Theologica and says ’ A glorified body has the power to be in heaven or above heaven. not from its natural principles, but from the beatified soul, from which it derives its glory’.

Whether Christ Ascended above all the Heavens? (ST, Part III, Q. 57, art. 4):

https://dhspriory.org/thomas/summa/TP/TP057.html#TPQ57A4THEP1

 

[Richca]

(continued from the Summa Theologica)

Instead of copying and pasting Q. 57, art. 4, I just gave the link.

 

[BornInMarch]

“But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.” - 2 Peter 3:8 (ESV)

 

[AlNg]

I think that I would say that Jesus’ glorified body transcends spacetime, and is not bound by it.

I think that I would say that Jesus’ glorified body transcends spacetime, and is not bound by it.

At what point did the body of Jesus transcend spacetime? When Thomas saw Jesus, Jesus was in spacetime, no? Also is it figurative or literal that Jesus ascended into heaven? And where does the body of Jesus sit in heaven?

 

[Gorgias]

At what point did the body of Jesus transcend spacetime?

At the point it was a glorified body – at the resurrection.

When Thomas saw Jesus, Jesus was in spacetime, no?

To ‘transcend’ is to ‘go beyond the limits of’. Was Jesus present in spacetime after His resurrection? Of course. Was Jesus bound by spacetime after his resurrection? By no means.

Also is it figurative or literal that Jesus ascended into heaven? And where does the body of Jesus sit in heaven?

The fact that Jesus ascended into the clouds doesn’t speak to where He is.

 

[AlNg]

The fact that Jesus ascended into the clouds doesn’t speak to where He is .

I thought that Jesus ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. Where else would His glorified Body be?

Was Jesus bound by spacetime after his resurrection? By no means.

In as much as His appearances were over a certain limited time period this indicates that He was in time.

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

The fact that Jesus ascended into the clouds doesn’t speak to where He is .

I thought that Jesus ascended into heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. Where else would His glorified Body be?

You’re responding with the answer to a different question.

Besides which, you’re the one who’s requiring a phrase that has a particular meaning be taken as if it were simply a literal description. Thomas Aquinas explains what the phrase means:

The word “sitting” may have a twofold meaning; namely, “abiding” as in Luke 24:49: “Sit [Douay: ‘Stay’] you in the city”: and royal or judiciary “power,” as in Proverbs 20:8: “The king, that sitteth on the throne of judgment, scattereth away all evil with his look.” Now in either sense it belongs to Christ to sit at the Father’s right hand. First of all inasmuch as He abides eternally unchangeable in the Father’s bliss, which is termed His right hand, according to Psalm 15:11: “At Thy right hand are delights even to the end.” Hence Augustine says (De Symb. i): “‘Sitteth at the right hand of the Father’: To sit means to dwell, just as we say of any man: ‘He sat in that country for three years’: Believe, then, that Christ dwells so at the right hand of the Father: for He is happy, and the Father’s right hand is the name for His bliss.” Secondly, Christ is said to sit at the right hand of the Father inasmuch as He reigns together with the Father, and has judiciary power from Him; just as he who sits at the king’s right hand helps him in ruling and judging. Hence Augustine says (De Symb. ii): “By the expression ‘right hand,’ understand the power which this Man, chosen of God, received, that He might come to judge, who before had come to be judged.”

 

[meltzerboy2]

From His perspective, only G-d would know.