Was there a point that only God existed?

[Fauken]

You are forgetting that Scripture tells us that God can take on a physical form. Even though God is a spirit, according to Holy Scripture God has taken on a material form.
Jesus, for example, was God and Jesus had a right hand and a left hand.

So you are arguing that the Trinity is in a physical form in Heaven which is not a physical place? They’re taking up physical space where there is none to be taken? How exactly do you imagine that works? God can take flesh, of course, but He’s not capable of doing logical contradictions. Unless you now want to argue that God is capable of making a square circle, which is the equivalent of what you’re doing by saying that God has a form in Heaven, despite there being no space for Him to occupy. You also have no proof that He is indeed in fact actually in a physical form in Heaven. Your only evidence is that He can do it, and has only ever done it as the Son. God can also take the form of a chicken, can I assume He appears as a chicken in Heaven?

 

[Dovekin]

you are arguing that the Trinity is in a physical form in Heaven which is not a physical place? They’re taking up physical space where there is none to be taken? How exactly do you imagine that works?

While I fully endorse your position, AINg has a point. The second person of the Trinity does have a body, a glorified body. What do your questions say about that?

The Father, like the Holy Spirit, is a spirit, and has no need of a body. But Jesus has a body, or more correctly is a body with a soul that is united to the 2nd person of the Trinity. He is seated at the right hand of the Father is the traditional answer to these questions.

I cannot imagine how that works.

 

[Fauken]

The second person of the Trinity does have a body, a glorified body. What do your questions say about that?

When Jesus ascended to Heaven, did He literally enter a place in the sky? Did He need to rise in the air to reach Heaven? We understand that Heaven is not a literal place, and it’s not actually in the sky. When I think of the Ascension, I imagine that His being ascended into Heaven was for our benefit, not as a necessity for Him to reach it. Now I’ll be honest, I don’t know what’s happened to Jesus’ body between Him ascending from earth and returning to Heaven, but it is a fact that Heaven is not an actual place and does not occupy space. An object cannot occupy somewhere that hasn’t the space to hold it. This same logic is used to debunk the atheist challenge of, “Can God make a rock so big He can’t lift it?”.

What has happened to Jesus’ body, I don’t know, but we cannot say that He is seated at the right hand of the Father in a literal sense.

 

[AlNg]

He’s not capable of doing logical contradictions.

It is not a contradiction for God to take on a material form. Holy Scripture gives us several examples where He did so. And it is Catholic teaching that God is omnipotent, so He is able to do so without any contradiction.

 

[Fauken]

It is not a contradiction for God to take on a material form. Holy Scripture gives us several examples where He did so. And it is Catholic teaching that God is omnipotent, so He is able to do so without any contradiction.

Did you read anything I said?

 

[AlNg]

Did you read anything I said?

Yes. you ask the question:

God can also take the form of a chicken, can I assume He appears as a chicken in Heaven?

I don’t see anywhere in Scripture to support your theory that God appears as a chicken in heaven. However, I do see support in Holy Scripture which verifies that on several occasions, God took on a human form.

Stop. You’re embarrassing yourself.

I don’t see why a Bible believing Christian should be embarrassed by what he reads in Holy Scripture.

 

[Fauken]

I don’t see anywhere in Scripture to support your theory that God appears as a chicken in heaven. However, I do see support in Holy Scripture which verifies that on several occasions, God took on a human form.

And what else did I say? How about my other questions?

So you are arguing that the Trinity is in a physical form in Heaven which is not a physical place? They’re taking up physical space where there is none to be taken? How exactly do you imagine that works? God can take flesh, of course, but He’s not capable of doing logical contradictions. Unless you now want to argue that God is capable of making a square circle, which is the equivalent of what you’re doing by saying that God has a form in Heaven, despite there being no space for Him to occupy.

Now I’ll be honest, I don’t know what’s happened to Jesus’ body between Him ascending from earth and returning to Heaven, but it is a fact that Heaven is not an actual place and does not occupy space. An object cannot occupy somewhere that hasn’t the space to hold it. This same logic is used to debunk the atheist challenge of, “Can God make a rock so big He can’t lift it?”.

You also have no proof that He is indeed in fact actually in a physical form in Heaven. Your only evidence is that He can do it, and has only ever done it as the Son.

 

[AlNg]

Your only evidence is that He can do it, and has only ever done it as the Son.

Apparently you have not read the Old Testament.

 

[Fauken]

Apparently you have not read the Old Testament.

That’s all you have to say?

 

[AlNg]

That’s all you have to say?

If you would kindly read the Old Testament, you might understand what I have been talking about.

 

[Fauken]

If you would kindly read the Old Testament, you might understand what I have been talking about.

I’ll bite. What’s in the Old Testament that you want to point out in particular?

I hope this is good. You’ve basically addressed none of my points and still have nothing to back up your assertions, and yet claim I’m ignorant of the Old Testament and just need to read it.

EDIT: I admit I’m no expert on the OT, but if you could please indulge me, where is the flaw in the reasoning I’ve given you for why we Catholics cannot believe in a literal right hand of God?

 

[Gorgias]

I don’t see why a Bible believing Christian should be embarrassed by what he reads in Holy Scripture.

He should be, when he demands that figurative expressions be interpreted strictly literalistically.

 

[AlNg]

What’s in the Old Testament that you want to point out in particular?

I am repeating myself now, but if you would kindly take a look at post 198 or 199 I am not sure which, but it has a few references in the OT where God had appeared in human or material form. I believe that there may be a few others in addition to what was listed there.
I have presented my argument and it is clear to me from Holy Scripture in several places that God has taken on material form and that there must be a right and a left when you consider the risen glorified Body of Christ. I am somewhat disappointed to see people here resort to bullying and ridiculing techniques instead of addressing the question head on.

 

[Fauken]

I have presented my argument and it is clear to me from Holy Scripture in several places that God has taken on material form and that there must be a right and a left when you consider the risen glorified Body of Christ. I am somewhat disappointed to see people here resort to bullying and ridiculing techniques instead of addressing the question head on.

Except that’s not what you’ve been arguing. No one has ever questioned if Jesus’ body has a left or right side. You have been arguing that Christ is seated at a literal right hand of God. Your evidence for this has been a non-sequitur (“Because God has had a physical form on earth, He too must have one in Heaven” seems to be your reasoning) and Scripture, most of which can be interpreted in a non-literal way, and even the one about God walking in the Garden doesn’t help you, because Jesus isn’t seated at the right hand of God on earth, but in Heaven, and Heaven is a whole other issue. You haven’t addressed the issue with Jesus being called the Root of Jesse and yet never being a literal root, and most importantly, you haven’t addressed the issue of the corporeal body of the Son and the Father sitting next to each other in Heaven, which is not a physical place and thus has no space for them to be next to each other. Both of those points, particularly the second one, rely on theological concepts endorsed and taught by the Church. And then you accuse us of avoiding the main question while you yourself are avoiding dealing with the main point of our arguments. Your position relies purely on your interpretation of Scripture. Ours relies on what the Church has said on the matter. To top it all off, you accuse people of denying the Nicene Creed while not providing anything that shows that it is to be interpreted literally. That’s why people are annoyed.

 

[AlNg]

That’s why people are annoyed.

OK but

1. If God had not taken on a human or at least a material form, how would someone on earth see God face to face ?
2. Further, is Jesus in eternity above spacetime and not in a spacetime domain? How can a physical body be in eternity ? When humans are resurrected, will their bodies be in eternity or will they be in some sort of spacetime existence?

 

[Fauken]

From Haydock’s Commentary, Genesis 32:30:

" Ver. 30. Phanuel. This word signifies the face of God, or the sight, or seeing of God. Ch. — Hebrew reads here Peni-el, though it has Phanuel in the next verse. Jacob thus returns thanks to God for the preservation of his life, after having seen God or his angel in a corporeal form, and not in a dream only. C."

And Judges 6:22:
"AlNg:

Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the Lord. So Gideon said, ‘Alas, O Lord God! For I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face’

So your Judges verse refers to the Angel of the Lord, and the same goes for Haydock’s commentary. This is because the Angel is God’s messenger. If I’m not mistaken, back in those days, a messenger would lower his face and when he relayed his master’s message, he basically became his master for that moment: it is as if the messenger was gone, and standing in his place was his master. The same is going on regarding God and the angel.

Further, is Jesus in eternity above spacetime and not in a spacetime domain? How can a physical body be in eternity ? When humans are resurrected, will their bodies be in eternity or will they be in some sort of spacetime existence?

Can you explain what you mean by “spacetime”?

 

[AlNg]

So your Judges verse refers to the Angel of the Lord,

If an angel is pure spirit, how can a human see him?

And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved (Genesis 32:30).

Can you explain what you mean by “spacetime”?

The concept of time and three-dimensional space merged in a four-dimensional continuum.

 

[Fauken]

If an angel is pure spirit, how can a human see him?

By having a non-spiritual form. If God Himself can do it, surely an angel can as well. However, this form would not be like Jesus’ body, I imagine.

The concept of time and three-dimensional space merged in a four-dimensional continuum.

Jesus is beyond the concept of time. He is not bound to it, neither space, however, He can’t do the logically impossible (a square circle). Presumably at the Second Coming, we will have glorified bodies like His.

 

[AlNg]

Jesus is beyond the concept of time.

How can someone grow and become strong and grow in wisdom and stature if that person is beyond time? I thought that you needed time in order to grow.

 

[Fauken]

How can someone grow and become strong and grow in wisdom and stature if that person is beyond time? I thought that you needed time in order to grow.

You asked:

Further, is Jesus in eternity above spacetime and not in a spacetime domain?

Which I took to not refer to His time on earth, but after it. Jesus’ divinity is not bound to time. His humanity, like ours, is. There was no room for his divinity to grow in wisdom and stature because He is wisdom and perfection. The Son would be the greatest carpenter the world would ever know, but He took on our limitations as human and so had to learn to become one.