Was there ever a "first" God of the LDS church?

[Hatikvah]

Now, allow me to clarify: I am speaking of the mainstream LDS church, the most popular one that we refer to today, rather than any other group. And when I do speak of Gods in Mormonism, I speak of the doctrine of eternal progression (LDS President Lorenzo Snow summed it up as: “As God is, man may become; as man is, God once was”).

Now, my question from the title is: How do the LDS Mormons believe that the first “God” got here? Was he eternal, creating things, or was the universe just generally eternal and without end? I know that they do believe that matter is eternal.

If you are confused about the eternal progression doctrine and how it related to many Gods, this article on this website explains well.

Thanks!

 

[gazelam]

Now, allow me to clarify: I am speaking of the mainstream LDS church, the most popular one that we refer to today, rather than any other group. And when I do speak of Gods in Mormonism, I speak of the doctrine of eternal progression (LDS President Lorenzo Snow summed it up as: “As God is, man may become; as man is, God once was”).

Now, my question from the title is: How do the LDS Mormons believe that the first “God” got here? Was he eternal, creating things, or was the universe just generally eternal and without end? I know that they do believe that matter is eternal.

If you are confused about the eternal progression doctrine and how it related to many Gods, this article on this website explains well.

Thanks!

Here is an LDS-affiliated link that addresses this topic:
en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Infinite_regress_of_Gods

 

[truthseeker32]

Mormonism exchanges ontological coherence for a god who is less mysterious, easier to understand. As a Mormon I was taught that time, matter, our spirits, and God have always e existed. In other words, to make God more like us, a god who weeps, Mormonism gives up answering the big existential questions, most especially “Why is there something rather than nothing?”

 

[jane_doe]

And when I do speak of Gods in Mormonism, I speak of the doctrine of eternal progression (LDS President Lorenzo Snow summed it up as: “As God is, man may become; as man is, God once was”).

Now, my question from the title is: How do the LDS Mormons believe that the first “God” got here? Was he eternal, creating things, or was the universe just generally eternal and without end? I know that they do believe that matter is eternal.

If you’re wanting to understand LDS beliefs, it is best to start with the basics. LDS believe:

“We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and **we believe that God will yet reveal many great and important things **pertaining to the Kingdom of God.” (LDS Articles of Faith lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1.9?lang=eng. Bolding is mine.)

Any talk of the Father’s past, a “first God”, or similar questions are very much in “yet to reveal” category. Right now, we do not have official answers to things questions, and that’s perfectly ok. Why there’s no shame in wondering things, we should not let it distract us from the most important thing: being despises of Christ.

If you are confused about the eternal progression doctrine and how it related to many Gods, this article on this website explains well.

Why Catholic.com does a great job explaining Catholic beliefs, it does a very poor job as explaining LDS beliefs (make sense, it’s written by Catholics, not LDS people). Rather, I would recommend this site written by LDS people (en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Infinite_regress_of_Gods) (Gazalam recommended it as well).

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

That understanding of Mormonism is funny. There really couldn’t be a first god since there would have been a series of infinite gods going back forever.

I think the more pertinent question is what would it mean if the god of Mormonism had a god. I think it implies inferiority on behalf of the god of Mormonism hence why Mormons are hesitant to subscribe to it, instead leaving the matter unresolved.

 

[lax16]

If you’re wanting to understand LDS beliefs, it is best to start with the basics. LDS believe:

“We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and **we believe that God will yet reveal many great and important things **pertaining to the Kingdom of God.” (LDS Articles of Faith lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1.9?lang=eng. Bolding is mine.)

Any talk of the Father’s past, a “first God”, or similar questions are very much in “yet to reveal” category. Right now, we do not have official answers to things questions, and that’s perfectly ok. Why there’s no shame in wondering things, we should not let it distract us from the most important thing: being despises of Christ.

Why Catholic.com does a great job explaining Catholic beliefs, it does a very poor job as explaining LDS beliefs (make sense, it’s written by Catholics, not LDS people). Rather, I would recommend this site written by LDS people (en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Infinite_regress_of_Gods) (Gazalam recommended it as well).

Didn’t God reveal himself to the Jewish people several thousand years ago?

 

[gazelam]

Didn’t God reveal himself to the Jewish people several thousand years ago?

I’m not Catholic, but doesn’t the Catholic Church see things along these lines?

God gradually reveals Himself culminating in Jesus Christ…

CCC 53 The divine plan of Revelation is realized simultaneously “by deeds and words which are intrinsically bound up with each other” and shed light on each another. It involves a specific divine pedagogy: God communicates himself to man gradually. He prepares him to welcome by stages the supernatural Revelation that is to culminate in the person and mission of the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ.

Then Newman’s “Doctrinal Development” allows for a greater understanding of doctrine (including the nature of God) over time including into the future. This is manifest in the statement of the Catholic Bishops in Vatican II which states “the understanding of the things and words handed down grows, through the
contemplation and study of believers, … (which) tends continually towards the fullness of divine truth.” (Constitution on Revelation, article 8)

So, wouldn’t the Catholic view allow for a greater understanding of God in the future even though nothing additional will be revealed?

It seems to me that LDS and Catholics have a parallel understanding that divine understanding will still increase in the future. The LDS believe that the additional understanding will come via revelation, whereas the Catholic view is that the additional understanding will come via Doctrinal Development.

Thoughts?

 

[superwimp]

Hello Hatikvah and Jane Doe,
When looking for information on the web, especially when using agenda driven websites like the ones you linked to, I usually go to the bottom and see if they permit comments on their article. If not then I know there is a reason why they have chosen not to allow comments and I would judge the accuracy of their information accordingly.

 

[Janderich]

Now, my question from the title is: How do the LDS Mormons believe that the first “God” got here? Was he eternal, creating things, or was the universe just generally eternal and without end? I know that they do believe that matter is eternal

Joseph himself explains it in the King Follett Discourse. There are a few principles here:

1. A portion of both God’s and man’s spirit is independent, it was not created or made. Moreover, this portion, often termed “intelligence” has always been and will always be free to act for itself, otherwise there is no existence. It exists on a self existent principle. Here are Joseph’s words on the matter:

The mind or the intelligence which man possesses is co-equal with God himself… I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits; for they are co-equal with our Father in heaven.

1. Although the intelligence of man (and God) is self-existent and eternal, man’s intelligence is capable of enlargement. As man chooses to add light and truth to what he already possesses he grows in intelligence and power. Joseph said:

All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.

1. God, in the midst of these intelligent spirits, found that he had progressed further then they. Therefore he instituted a plan to help these spirits increase. As Joseph said:

God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

Based on these principles it is pointless to ask where the first God came from. His intelligence always existed. He is from eternity to eternity, just as you are from eternity to eternity. There is a core inside of him, just as inside of you, that is unchanging, self knowing, and self existent. However, by rightly exercising the freedom and intelligence he had, he progressed in knowledge faster than you. Ultimately, he instituted a plan to help you gain that understanding which you lacked.

Therefore, all these supposed contradictions the Catholic Answers article brings up are false. God can rightly say he is eternal and unchanging, just as you can say that you are eternal and unchanging. We have always been and will always be. Search your soul and find the truth.

 

[lax16]

I’m not Catholic, but doesn’t the Catholic Church see things along these lines?

God gradually reveals Himself culminating in Jesus Christ…

CCC 53 The divine plan of Revelation is realized simultaneously “by deeds and words which are intrinsically bound up with each other” and shed light on each another. It involves a specific divine pedagogy: God communicates himself to man gradually. He prepares him to welcome by stages the supernatural Revelation that is to culminate in the person and mission of the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ.

So, wouldn’t the Catholic view allow for a greater understanding of God in the future even though nothing additional will be revealed?

It seems to me that LDS and Catholics have a parallel understanding that divine understanding will still increase in the future. The LDS believe that the additional understanding will come via revelation, whereas the Catholic view is that the additional understanding will come via Doctrinal Development.

Thoughts?

Great questions!

I think the difference lies in that Catholics believe that there is nothing new to know about God himself, such as he is a man vs being an incorporeal being. All of God’s plan has been fulfilled through Jesus Christ and there is nothing new to reveal.

However, he does continue to reveal himself to each of us as individuals.

For example, I get to know God better every time I have a health issue or one of my children goes through a hardship, through prayer and obedience. I grow in mercy and compassion as I get to know God better because he is merciful and compassionate.

Christians have known this about God for 2,000 years and there is nothing new I can say or know about God that hasn’t already been revealed to the prophets of old.

Does that make sense?

 

[lax16]

Then Newman’s “Doctrinal Development” allows for a greater understanding of doctrine (including the nature of God) over time including into the future. This is manifest in the statement of the Catholic Bishops in Vatican II which states “the understanding of the things and words handed down grows, through the
contemplation and study of believers, … (which) tends continually towards the fullness of divine truth.” (Constitution on Revelation, article 8)

So, wouldn’t the Catholic view allow for a greater understanding of God in the future even though nothing additional will be revealed?

It seems to me that LDS and Catholics have a parallel understanding that divine understanding will still increase in the future. The LDS believe that the additional understanding will come via revelation, whereas the Catholic view is that the additional understanding will come via Doctrinal Development.

Thoughts?

Understanding and prospective will increase as we grow in our faith. However, nothing can change. The truth has already been established and nothing can be added to it.

 

[Chris-WA]

Here is an LDS-affiliated link that addresses this topic:
en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Infinite_regress_of_Gods

Read the article. Fairmormon isn’t doing you any favors. The goal of the article appears to be to complicate and confuse the reader to the point where they feel dumb for asking the question in the first place. Fairmormon is well known for doing a lot of that on many issues.

It’s really not that complicated at all. Joseph Smith taught that God the Father was once a man who eventually became a god. This was the basis of Joseph’s doctrine of eternal progression. LDS don’t think it’s a big deal because they do the same thing with this teaching that they do with other LDS teachings that just don’t quite pass the sanity test—they put it on the shelf and don’t really think about it. Then when someone outside of the church asks about it they say, “Well, we really don’t know much about it and it’s really not important to our faith anyway.” Not a good answer.

Joseph’s teaching on this matter is pure nonsense.

 

[Chris-WA]

If you’re wanting to understand LDS beliefs, it is best to start with the basics. LDS believe:

“We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and **we believe that God will yet reveal many great and important things **pertaining to the Kingdom of God.” (LDS Articles of Faith lds.org/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1.9?lang=eng. Bolding is mine.)

Any talk of the Father’s past, a “first God”, or similar questions are very much in “yet to reveal” category. Right now, we do not have official answers to things questions, and that’s perfectly ok. Why there’s no shame in wondering things, we should not let it distract us from the most important thing: being despises of Christ.

Why Catholic.com does a great job explaining Catholic beliefs, it does a very poor job as explaining LDS beliefs (make sense, it’s written by Catholics, not LDS people). Rather, I would recommend this site written by LDS people (en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/Infinite_regress_of_Gods) (Gazalam recommended it as well).

Actually, the Catholic.com article does a much better job of explaining the doctrine than fairmormon does. You guys need a better source than fairmormon. Their answers are full of circular reasoning, nonsensical hypotheses, and diversion. It’s like reading Bill Clinton’s testimony when he said, "It depends on what the definition of ‘is’ is.

 

[Chris-WA]

Joseph himself explains it in the King Follett Discourse. There are a few principles here:

1. A portion of both God’s and man’s spirit is independent, it was not created or made. Moreover, this portion, often termed “intelligence” has always been and will always be free to act for itself, otherwise there is no existence. It exists on a self existent principle. Here are Joseph’s words on the matter:
2. Although the intelligence of man (and God) is self-existent and eternal, man’s intelligence is capable of enlargement. As man chooses to add light and truth to what he already possesses he grows in intelligence and power. Joseph said:
3. God, in the midst of these intelligent spirits, found that he had progressed further then they. Therefore he instituted a plan to help these spirits increase. As Joseph said:

Based on these principles it is pointless to ask where the first God came from. His intelligence always existed. He is from eternity to eternity, just as you are from eternity to eternity. There is a core inside of him, just as inside of you, that is unchanging, self knowing, and self existent. However, by rightly exercising the freedom and intelligence he had, he progressed in knowledge faster than you. Ultimately, he instituted a plan to help you gain that understanding which you lacked.

Therefore, all these supposed contradictions the Catholic Answers article brings up are false. God can rightly say he is eternal and unchanging, just as you can say that you are eternal and unchanging. We have always been and will always be. Search your soul and find the truth.

Oh my goodness if you could only hear yourself. There is so much wrong with this it’s hard to know where to start. Intelligence is eternal? What? This is truly one of the more bizarre teachings of Mormonism. My friend, intelligence is not eternal. Matter is not eternal. Only God is. And you and I, and everything in the universe, are created things. Created. We had a beginning. God did not.

This nonsensical teaching of Joseph has nothing to do with Christianity or revelation. He didn’t even invent the idea. He borrowed this from 19th century sources and incorporated it into his own theology.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I find the sort of Mormonism Jane raises fascinating. It raises so many questions when you think on it.

If there are intelligences from eternity and the only thing that distinguishes us as intelligences from the intelligence that is the Father is the degree to which we have ascended, it doesn’t seem illogical or ill thought of to think of there being an eternal amount of intelligences before God the Father who are in every way superior to him just as after us there will be an eternal amount of intelligences which are inferior to us.

The question is why should we worship this heavenly Father and not our heavenly Grandfather? Mormons can only say ‘because it is the way it is’ or ‘I don’t know.’ Mormons don’t really want to speculate beyond what they know yet the idea of an infinite amount of intelligences which are eternal seems to necessitate an eternal chain of heavenly Fathers and Mothers that has no real beginning or end. I mean Mormons can’t say for sure that Heavenly Father is the greatest entity existing. Perhaps the greatest entity they are definitely aware of, but it is possible within Mormon theology to have a greater God.

If Jane has represented the Mormon view of intelligences correctly, which I have no reason to believe Jane has not, then there can really be no “first God.”

 

[Janderich]

I was reading a very interesting book called, The Biology of Wonder, in it the author discusses “life”. After commenting that molecules on their own accord appear to bring forth more of their kind he concludes:

What are we if not the matter of our bodies? Should every living being itself perhaps be understood as an “unmoved mover,” much as the Greeks regarded the divine as a force that gave the cosmos and all things within it their shape and directions?(Andreas Weber, p 52)

To which I say, “Yes”. We are indeed all unmoved movers!

 

[jane_doe]

Actually, the Catholic.com article does a much better job of explaining the doctrine than fairmormon does. You guys need a better source than fairmormon. .

With all do respect, I think it’s best to get information from primary sources. And in the realm of faith, that means asking Catholics what Catholics believe, LDS what LDS believe, Baptists what Baptists believe, etc.

 

[jane_doe]

The question is why should we worship this heavenly Father and not our heavenly Grandfather?

Simple: because the Father is our Father, and the one we are commanded to worship.

Mormons can only say ‘because it is the way it is’ or ‘I don’t know.’ Mormons don’t really want to speculate beyond what they know yet the idea of an infinite amount of intelligences which are eternal seems to necessitate an eternal chain of heavenly Fathers and Mothers that has no real beginning or end.

Actually, some individual Mormons do speculate on this a lot. But that’s all they are: speculations. They are not revelations from God and should not be treated as such. Revelations will come when God deems it time, not before.

I mean Mormons can’t say for sure that Heavenly Father is the greatest entity existing.

Pardon me… but I don’t worship my Father because He’s the biggest bully on the playground, nor do I remotely care. Frankly, I find such mentalities to be very juvenile. I worship Him because He is my Father.

 

[zaffiroborant]

With all do respect, I think it’s best to get information from primary sources. And in the realm of faith, that means asking Catholics what Catholics believe, LDS what LDS believe, Baptists what Baptists believe, etc.

Well this can cause some confusion, since many Catholics have incorrect beliefs about what the Church teaches, like the Immaculate Conception refers to Jesus’ conception and that “catholic” in the creeds=Roman Catholic.

My problem with fairmormon is that it isn’t really an authoritative source it is simply what these particular Mormons believe.
fairmormon.org:

Any opinions expressed, implied, or included in or with the goods and services offered by FairMormon are solely those of FairMormon and not those of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Simple: because the Father is our Father, and the one we are commanded to worship.

Pardon me… but I don’t worship my Father because He’s the biggest bully on the playground, nor do I remotely care. Frankly, I find such mentalities to be very juvenile. I worship Him because He is my Father.

But not really your father since you both have existed for all of eternity.