Water baptism cannot make you right with God

[guanophore]

**Peter did not invalidly baptize, because he did not dip the people at the House of Cornelius in water.

To understand the context of these verses, you must read all of Chapter 10 and Chapter 11:1-18. The Jews had a strick oral tradition regarding how a gentile can be proselytized into their religion.

Peter was a Jew. It was unlawful for a Jew to even talk to a Gentile. When God instructed Peter to enter the house of Cornelius (a gentile), Peter was breaking with his tradition as a Jew.

What Peter is saying in Acts 10:47 is that the Jewish tradition of performing the ritual of water baptism on a gentile does not preclude them from receiving the Holy Spriit.**

When Peter returned to Jerusalem and told the apostles of his experience at the house of Cornelius, he told them in Acts 11:15- 17:

15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon (those at the House of Cornelius) just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, `John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

In other words, what Peter is saying is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is far greater than the ritual of water baptism.

Certainly the baptism of Christ, which is that done by water and Spirit, is far greater than the baptism of John, which was only unto repentance, as the HS had not yet been given. It is true that the Jewish rite for proselites was not followed with the house of Cornelius. But you have not explained why Peter said “can anyone refuse water?” and "he commanded them to be baptized’.

Now, why would the subject of water even come up? Why would Peter consider refusing it to them? Why would he command them to be water baptized, when he had just seen with his own eyes that the Spirit had already baptized them?

**
What you are suggesting doesn’t even make sense.**

Metaphorically, burial in baptism (going under the water) corresponds to “dying with Christ”.

Col 2:12 - having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
tabcom;2439066:

How can you be buried with Christ by being dipped in water?

Better yet, how can you be “buried with Christ” when the spirit falls? How was any of the people in the house of Cornelius “buried” when the Spirit fell upon them?

No, there is another type of baptism going on here.

If you would be so kind as to point to a verse that explicitly states that Paul performed a water baptism, I will respond accordingly.

Yes, it is sacramental baptism, instituted by Christ, where the believer is dipped in water, and is filled with the HS.

1 Cor 1:12-18
11 For it has been reported to me by Chlo’e’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren. 12 What I mean is that each one of you says, “I belong to Paul,” or “I belong to Apol’los,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.” 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Ga’ius; 15 lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name. 16(I did baptize also the household of Steph’anas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.)

The believers understood that baptism is what gave them belonging in the body of Christ. They were just small minded, and became factious about it.

 

[fellowChristian]

Who told you baptism cannot make you right with God?

**John 3:22 **
John’s Last Testimony
22After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing.

John 4
Jesus Goes to Galilee
1Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John

Acts 8

36As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?”

37[And Philip said, **“If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”]

38And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and **he baptized him. **

Acts 10:47

47"Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

Acts 2:38
38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22:16
16’Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

**Hebrews 10:22 **
22let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

1 Peter 3:21
21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you–not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience–through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[I_Leatherman]

**To firmly hold to the belief that baptise means to immerse/cover in water exclusively, would be in err.

The Hebrew Bible was written in Hebrew.
The Christian Bible was written in Greek.

baptise - from the greek word Baptizo (bap-tid’-zo)

1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one’s self, bathe
3. to overwhelm

Not to be confused with 911, bapto. The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be ‘dipped’ (bapto) into boiling water and then ‘baptised’ (baptizo) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change. When used in the New Testament, this word more often refers to our union and identification with Christ than to our water baptism. e.g. Mark 16:16. ‘He that believes and is baptised shall be saved’. Christ is saying that mere intellectual assent is not enough. There must be a union with him, a real change, like the vegetable to the pickle! Bible Study Magazine, James Montgomery Boice, May 1989.

From the The New Testament Greek Lexicon:
searchgodsword.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=907**

Thats an interesting post. Baptism as an immersion or the act or state of being immersed. I think baptism changes the character of the soul of the baptised. Now its immersed in Christ or with Christ, in His death and ressurection.
But does He not also say that unless one is baptised with Water And the Holy Spirit that one will not enter. Did I get that right? A permanent change occurs at baptism but it must also be accompanied by a material, water, and the correct form, the words of the act intended.

 

[fellowChristian]

Faith and Works

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

16and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

17Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

19You believe that God is one You do well; the **demons also believe, and shudder. **

20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

23and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God.

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

25In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also **faith without works is dead. **

 

[fellowChristian]

**Mark 16:16
16"He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. **

 

[tabcom]

John 3:4-5
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Water baptism, during which the believer is sealed by the promised holy spirit, is the normative means by which someone is brought into the body of Christ.

I’m still confused as to why anyone would site John 3:5 as proof that baptism is of water. The context of Nicodemus’ question to Jesus has to do with being born again, NOT water baptism.

Certainly the baptism of Christ, which is that done by water and Spirit,

**Where do you get this doctrine from?

I’m still waiting for an explict citation that says water AND spirit**

But you have not explained why
Peter said “can anyone refuse water?” and "he commanded them to be baptized’.

**Who is the ‘anyone’ that Peter is referring to in his rhetorical question? It is the Jews. It was the Jews and their tradition that said that gentiles must perform the ritual of water baptism to be accepted amongst Jews. Peter is saying that if a gentile is baptized in the Holy Spirit, then they don’t need to perform the rituals handed down by the traditions of the Jews to be accepted within the Church.

Peter says in Acts 11:16:

"And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

He doesn’t say baptized with water AND with the Holy Spirit.
**

 

[fellowChristian]

The First Miracle: Water into Wine (John 2:1-12)

Miracle 2 — Multiplying the Loaves and Fish (Matthew 14:13-21)

Miracle 3 — A Net Full of Fish (John 21:1-13)

Miracle 6 — Healing a Blind Man (Mark 8:22-26)

Just thinking—ever notice how things from the earth are used for miracles?

1. water
   2.wine
   3.mud
   4.fish
   5.bread
   6.oils

Jesus used things from the earth not because he needed to. They were used as outward symbols.

**sac·ra·ment **
noun 1. Ecclesiastical. a visible sign of an inward grace, esp. one of the solemn Christian rites considered to have been instituted by Jesus Christ to symbolize or confer grace: the sacraments of the Protestant churches are baptism and the Lord’s Supper;
the sacraments of the Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches are baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, matrimony, penance, holy orders, and extreme unction.

1. (often initial capital letter) Also called Holy Sacrament. the Eucharist or Lord’s Supper.
2. the consecrated elements of the Eucharist, esp. the bread.
3. something regarded as possessing a sacred character or mysterious significance.
4. a sign, token, or symbol.
5. an oath; solemn pledge.

 

[anthony022071]

**Peter did not invalidly baptize, because he did not dip the people at the House of Cornelius in water.

Where does it say that? Whether he dipped them in water or poured water over them,he still had them baptized with water! **

To understand the context of these verses, you must read all of Chapter 10 and Chapter 11:1-18. The Jews had a strick oral tradition regarding how a gentile can be proselytized into their religion.

Peter was a Jew. It was unlawful for a Jew to even talk to a Gentile. When God instructed Peter to enter the house of Cornelius (a gentile), Peter was breaking with his tradition as a Jew.

Peter had just had a vision where he was told: “What God has made clean,you must not call profane.” So what difference does
does it make that he was breaking with his tradition as a Jew?

What Peter is saying in Acts 10:47 is that the Jewish tradition of performing the ritual of water baptism on a gentile does not preclude them from receiving the Holy Spriit.

He said no such thing! You’ve got it backwards. In that passage,the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit first,and then Peter
ordered them to be baptized.

When Peter returned to Jerusalem and told the apostles of his experience at the house of Cornelius, he told them in Acts 11:15- 17:

15 "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon (those at the House of Cornelius) just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, `John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 “Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”

In other words, what Peter is saying is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is far greater than the ritual of water baptism.

Peter did not say that baptism with water was unnecessary.
The Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit,but Peter felt it necessary to baptize them with water in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[fellowChristian]

So a question why was Jesus baptized?

John’s baptism was one of repentence, was Jesus repenting?

 

[anthony022071]

So a question why was Jesus baptized?

John’s baptism was one of repentence, was Jesus repenting?

Matthew 3,13-15

 

[tabcom]

Acts 8:36-40
36 And as they went along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?” 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught up Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.

**I was waiting for someone to cite this verse, thank you.

To begin with, who says ‘See, here is water!’? The Ethiopian eunuch does. It was commonly known amongst the gentiles that Jews requiered the ritual of water baptism. Here was a gentile asking Philip, a Jew, a question about Scripture (Isa 53:7,8). In return, Philip preached Jesus to him (v. 35). Afterwards, the eunuch asks to be dipped in water. Philip does baptize him in water.

Ok…before you argue case closed on water baptism…wait!

Later, meaning a period of time after the eunuch’s water baptism. the apostles and elders met in Jerusalem to make the decree outlining four things as to what the gentiles must do to be accepted within the Church (Acts 15:13-21).

Omitted from the list was water baptism.**

 

[tabcom]

A permanent change occurs at baptism but it must also be accompanied by a material, water, and the correct form, the words of the act intended.

**

I’m still awaiting a post that explicitly states that baptism is water AND of the Holy Spirit.

Baptized with the Holy Spirit is used seven times in the NT

Acts 11:16
Matt 3:11
Mark 1:8
Luke 3:16
John 1:33
1 Cor 12:13

The reference is to a once for all act whereby Christ places believers in the care and safekeeping of the Holy Spirit until the day He returns.

Doesn’t that trump any outwordly public ritual of being dipped in water?
**

 

[onenow1]

John 3: 4-5, through water and the Spirit.

If i’m not mistaken the conjunction [and ] connects water with Spirit; And oddly enough in Gensis 1: the Spirit of God hovers over the water.

1 Peter 3​

20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him

Peace, OneNow1:coffeeread:

 

[anthony022071]

No,it doesn’t. See my post #48. Peter had people baptized in water,in the name of Jesus Christ,after they had received the Holy Spirit.

 

[anthony022071]

**

I’m still awaiting a post that explicitly states that baptism is water AND of the Holy Spirit.

Doesn’t that trump any outwordly public ritual of being dipped in water?
**

No,it doesn’t. See my post #48. Peter had the house of Cornelius baptized with water,in the name of Jesus Christ,after they had received the Holy Spirit.

 

[anthony022071]

Later, meaning a period of time after the eunuch’s water baptism. the apostles and elders met in Jerusalem to make the decree outlining four things as to what the gentiles must do to be accepted within the Church (Acts 15:13-21).

Omitted from the list was water baptism.

That was not a list of things that the gentiles must do – those were things that the gentiles should abstain from.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Doesn’t the Baptism of Jesus Himself in the River Jordan and the Father’s approval and the Holy Spirit’s involvement Trump any Waterless Batism ever?

 

[tabcom]

**How many baptisms are there?

Eph 4:5 {There is} one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

John The Baptist said:

"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

If there is only one baptism, and John said that Jesus’ baptism is greater than his, then the water baptism is done away with.
**

 

[tabcom]

The Gentiles were baptized with the Holy Spirit,but Peter felt it necessary to baptize them with water in the name of Jesus Christ.

As stated in my previous post, there is only one baptism (Eph. 4:5) and it is not of water (Matt 3:11). Therefore the ritual that you assume that Peter performed would have been superfluous.

 

[onenow1]

As stated in my previous post, there is only one baptism (Eph. 4:5) and it is not of water (Matt 3:11). Therefore the ritual that you assume that Peter performed would have been superfluous.

Matt.3:13-17, Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him.
14 John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”
15 But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now]; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Then he consented.
16 And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him;
17 and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

Tabcom, in VS: 14. John would have prevented Jesus from being baptised, and says he needs to be baptised by Jesus.

VS: 15, Jesus says let it be for now ] to fulfil all righteousness.

Now by what method woud Jesus have baptised John ?
Remember they were in the water.

Peace, OneNow1. :coffeeread: